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  1. #26
    opjose's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: Rodney

    If flying the bigger glow or gasoline powered planes, rudder is almost a necessity, especially if there is much taxi work involved (which is recommended). You are , IMHO, doing a disservice to the student if you do not clue him in on when and how to use the rudder on any four channel plane. How much usage depends on the type of plane and field conditions.

    Not at all!

    We ARE talking about "FLYING" not moving the plane along on the ground.

    Beginners are taught to do the latter after they have some stick time.

    We normally take the plane up for a novice and land it until they are ready to do both.

    Even then rudder is reserved for ground movement until we start training them on crosswind landings, etc.


    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  2. #27
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: rv9-a

    Am I missing something? Most Trainers are high wing with tricycle gear and a steerable nose wheel. Most steerable nose wheels are tied to the rudder. If the student can't can't touch the rudder who steers the plane while its on the ground ?

    rv9-a
    Normally the instructor via a buddy box, until they are ready for their first take-offs and landings.

    Take-off yaw is something a newbie should never be faced with on their first attempts.
    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  3. #28
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    "Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here."


    Radical Departure..
    ..from controlled flight

  4. #29

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: opjose

    There's a world of difference between a 12oz park flyer foamie and a 9lb nitro trainer with a 1.8HP engine fitted to the front spining sharp Ginzu blades.

    Some Parkzone planes teach you better than others, but saying that ''if you can fly ( any ) 4 channel Parkzone plane, you can easiy fly a 4 channel nitro trainer'' is poor advice.

    The instructor(s) teach you things that NO Parkzone flyer will.
    Yes... But some instructors dont see the parkzones and foamies as real planes to the point the disregard them. Planes a plane. Air over wings, prop pulling it... electric to nitro, they work the same.

    Bigger and more power means more danger. But if you fly 4 channel, then moving up a grade will be different, but the same.

    I mean it's like saying you have a nitro plane and move up to quarterscale. Different, but the same.

    Take the wisdom from club folks and listen to what they say.... but be smart enough to recognize a biased opinion when you see it.

    It's hard to say as this is all 2nd hand on the forum, but in the instructors mind, when he hears parkzone, then he just thinks 3 channel and isnt going to change his opinion even if oyu tell him it's four. In his mind, they all fly 3 channel style. Right? Maybe?


    Maybe you dont need an instructor but a buddy... Someone who has more experience to take it up and get it all trimmed, and to try to save it via a buddy box if you get into trouble... but isnt trying to have you fly the way they learned. Just a thought.

    RC is really hitting a new generation where computers, electronics, and electric engines are changing the game and a lot of the old time balsa kit built avaition guys dont feel it's the same as the old school heat shrunk planes with nitro engines. And with video games and all, the new generation of pilots are able to catch on faster and think about things differently.

    Concepts on flying are the same... safety is the same... aircfaft materials are different but if it flys, then it flys...

    The main thing is pilot comprehension and untrained skill has changed. You might be facing that type of cultural difference more than anything...

    You say tomato and I say tomato... (that doesnt work in print as well as it does in person. :P)

  5. #30

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Yes I agree, but the use of rudder has the same effect, the amount depends on the type, size and weight of aircraft. Its a big trainer that weights 9lbs and with a 1.8HP engine. If the original poster was only flying an UM, then yes its a step up, but if he has been flying a 30+" span 4 channel PK Mustang, Cub or F4 Wildcat, then these are harder to fly than a 6lb 40 size trainer.

    Only the instructor and pupil can work out between them if his previous rudder/flying experience is good enough to carry forward.

    My point was a small minority of instructor I've seen can't seem to deviate from the 'you must start on a 3 or 4 ch high wing trainer' route.
    Chris

  6. #31
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: opjose


    ORIGINAL: Rodney

    If flying the bigger glow or gasoline powered planes, rudder is almost a necessity, especially if there is much taxi work involved (which is recommended). You are , IMHO, doing a disservice to the student if you do not clue him in on when and how to use the rudder on any four channel plane. How much usage depends on the type of plane and field conditions.

    Not at all!

    We ARE talking about "FLYING" not moving the plane along on the ground.

    Beginners are taught to do the latter after they have some stick time.

    We normally take the plane up for a novice and land it until they are ready to do both.

    Even then rudder is reserved for ground movement until we start training them on crosswind landings, etc.


    Why? Shouldn't every instructor teach full control from day 1? IMO not teaching right and left hand control just sets the student up for bad habits. I have seen far too many airplanes lost simply because the pilot did not use rudder. This is something that needs to be taught from day one!. When I instruct I take the student out and have him literally drive the airplane around on the ground. I teach landing approaches course correction using rudder.

  7. #32

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Ahhhh.....

    Just realised, the throttle stick moves left and right and well!!!, thought it was just loose.[8D]
    Chris

  8. #33
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    Yes... But some instructors dont see the parkzones and foamies as real planes to the point the disregard them. Planes a plane. Air over wings, prop pulling it... electric to nitro, they work the same.
    There are reasons for that tendancy...

    The smaller "park flyer" electrics do not teach you proper and safe techniques, hence the bias.


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    It's hard to say as this is all 2nd hand on the forum, but in the instructors mind, when he hears parkzone, then he just thinks 3 channel and isnt going to change his opinion even if oyu tell him it's four. In his mind, they all fly 3 channel style. Right? Maybe?
    What aren't ALL "Parkzone's" 3 channel?

    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    Maybe you dont need an instructor but a buddy... Someone who has more experience to take it up and get it all trimmed, and to try to save it via a buddy box if you get into trouble... but isnt trying to have you fly the way they learned. Just a thought.
    The only problem with that is you are helping someone to BECOME an instructor who may be inexperienced at it.

    Better to go with somebody that has done it before.


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    RC is really hitting a new generation where computers, electronics, and electric engines are changing the game and a lot of the old time balsa kit built avaition guys dont feel it's the same as the old school heat shrunk planes with nitro engines. And with video games and all, the new generation of pilots are able to catch on faster and think about things differently.
    Not really....

    We haven't seen big changes in our evolution in the past few years that would do that after all.

    The proliferation of video games and simulators has greatly reduced the learning curves, particularly when it comes to spatial orientation... but that is not due to people "catching on faster"... rather the difference is because they have a means of practicing and learning this BEFORE they get out to the field.

    Thanks to the sim I soloed on my second day out... but it wasn't because I caught on faster.... rather I had a lot of time "playing" with the sim.

    It did not prepare me for the experience at the field, nor the dangers associated with even small electrics.


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    Concepts on flying are the same... safety is the same... aircfaft materials are different but if it flys, then it flys...
    I don't agree. That is like equating an Airhog's toy with your 100cc Composite-Arf.

    There is a world of difference in handling both, there is a world of difference in terms of safety, they both fly very differently.

    We call the Airhog's "Toys"... why? It's the same reasons that people mis-catagorize some of the Parkflyers.

    On the other hand there are those who assume that because they can handle a Parkflyer, they are ready for anything... or worst still because they started off by themselves with a 3 channel parkflyer, then that newbie who comes here asking for advice will have no problems with a Glow engine plane.


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete


    The main thing is pilot comprehension and untrained skill has changed.
    Nope, actual learning rates have been quite steady for a long time... Pilots learn at the same average rates, their skills are about the same.

    What has improved GREATLY are the tools we use... don't confuse one for the other.

    Those tools make it SEEM like people are learning far more quickly... That is not true.

    Instead learning is occuring away from the field as well as on the field... that is why there is a perceived difference.


    ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete

    You might be facing that type of cultural difference more than anything...
    Culture and training speeds are two different things.

    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  9. #34
    opjose's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: ackroyd

    Its a big trainer that weights 9lbs and with a 1.8HP engine.
    BTW: That's a pretty stock .46 size trainer with a modern glow engine.

    Not very big at all IMHO...



    ORIGINAL: ackroyd

    Only the instructor and pupil can work outΒ* between them if his previous rudder/flying experience is good enough to carry forward.
    Absolutely.... and that's why we advise everyone to seek out an instructor.


    ORIGINAL: ackroyd

    My point was a small minority of instructor I've seen can't seem to deviate from the 'you must start on a 3 or 4 ch high wing trainer' route.
    Anyone start out on a hot air balloon if they wish...

    But the "tried and true" method for greatest success has historically been trainers for very good reasons.

    There are now some great ( larger ) foam trainers and electric wood planes available too.



    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  10. #35

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Hey, Yearningtofly..

    If you are anywhere near the Kissimmee / St. Cloud / South Orlando area, let me know.. I will hook you up with an excellent Instructor. I fly out of the Kissimmee Club aka Osceola Flyers, and we have a nice field, and many compitent instructors. I don't get to go fly as much as I would like, but I would be happy to meet you at the airfield, show you around, and get you set up with an excellent instructor..

    let me know if you are interested..

    Craig.

    Ohh, and BTW, going to glow and learning how to use a rudder is not a mistake, the guy who gave you that bad advice was the mistake.

    L8R..


    Ultra Sport Brotherhood #10
    Revver Bro #263
    Tiger Club #26

  11. #36
    opjose's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    Why? Shouldn't every instructor teach full control from day 1? IMO not teaching right and left hand control just sets the student up for bad habits.

    You should try that at our field which tends to have pervailing cross winds.

    No, we leave rudder control till later.

    Most newbies do not understand the amount of input required to get a plane to respond, nor the delays involved in seeing a response.

    They need to develop a "feel" for the whole thing first.

    Throwing rudder control into the mix at first makes it more complex for them.

    That's one reason why we use "trainers" after all, so that rudder need not enter into the equation until they've had a bit of "hands on" time.




    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  12. #37

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    most 40 size trainers i've seen weight about 6lbs.
    Chris

  13. #38
    opjose's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: ackroyd

    most 40 size trainers i've seen weight about 6lbs.
    Move up to .46 and .50 with more powerful modern engines.

    And of course the .60's are well over 9lbs.



    There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

  14. #39

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    [quote]ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete


    ORIGINAL: opjose
    Maybe you dont need an instructor but a buddy... Someone who has more experience to take it up and get it all trimmed, and to try to save it via a buddy box if you get into trouble... but isnt trying to have you fly the way they learned. Just a thought.
    yep

    im not harshing this instructor or field at all.....just was taken back at the no rudder rule



  15. #40

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    At our club we have BOTH electric and glow trainners ( Electric Trojan & Glow Hobbico trainners ) and first ask the new student which they would prefir to fly. We explain both positive and negitive with both aircraft. Usually end up they try both to see how they feel and the difference in flying each aircraft. Myself as an instructor I do not start out letting the new person touch the left stick. I set the throttle so the plane flies at a nice slow steady speed and teach them to do nice big controlled turns. Trying to teach someone that has NEVER flown a plane before using ALL the controls gives them too much to take in on their first couple of flights. Take it nice and slow, listen and learn from a GOOD INSTRUCTOR. If they don't have you taking off and landing ( provided you fly 2-3 times a week ) within a month or less something is wrong with your instructor.
    Just my 2 cents worth
    DougB1

  16. #41

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: DougB1

    Myself as an instructor I do not start out letting the new person touch the left stick. I set the throttle so the plane flies at a nice slow steady speed and teach them to do nice big controlled turns.
    I cant turn without touching the rudder on the sim and e-plane

  17. #42

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly


    ORIGINAL: DougB1

    Β*Myself as an instructor I do not start out letting the new person touch the left stick. I set the throttle so the plane flies at a nice slow steady speed and teach them to do nice big controlled turns.
    I cant turn without touching the rudder on the sim and e-plane
    What type of sim and electric plane do you have ? I have not seen a simulator where you MUST use the rudder to turn.

  18. #43

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: DougB1


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly


    ORIGINAL: DougB1

    Myself as an instructor I do not start out letting the new person touch the left stick. I set the throttle so the plane flies at a nice slow steady speed and teach them to do nice big controlled turns.
    I cant turn without touching the rudder on the sim and e-plane
    What type of sim and electric plane do you have ? I have not seen a simulator where you MUST use the rudder to turn.

    ok cant is not accurate......where i am mentally ahead of the planeis ina tighteningarc at a scale bank angle which demands rudder for coordinated flight

    RFbasic and a t-28

    i hate the whirrrrrrrrr sound, no smell and holding it makes me want to go to the cooler

  19. #44
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: opjose

    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    Why? Shouldn't every instructor teach full control from day 1? IMO not teaching right and left hand control just sets the student up for bad habits.

    You should try that at our field which tends to have pervailing cross winds.

    No, we leave rudder control till later.

    Most newbies do not understand the amount of input required to get a plane to respond, nor the delays involved in seeing a response.

    They need to develop a "feel" for the whole thing first.

    Throwing rudder control into the mix at first makes it more complex for them.

    That's one reason why we use "trainers" after all, so that rudder need not enter into the equation until they've had a bit of "hands on" time.




    As usual you are not making much sense here. You usually have a cross wind condition at your site but do not teach the propper use of rudder control early on? So how do you instruct the student during his first landing approaches? Let me guess, you just have him aileron and elevator it in? What about throttle? Locked into idle and just glide it in hoping to hit the runway somewhere?


    I have taught many people to fly and have always done so with full control. I will usually take them out somewhere secluded and have them just drive the airplane around on the ground. This teaches them throttle response and ground handling. Most people have a dominate hand and this excercise helps with that. When they can fly around comfortably the gorund expereince makes the first take offs less intidating. Knowing how to use the rudder and modulate the throttle makes the first landing much easier. Not teacking left hadn control early on leads to bad habits that the pilot must then " Un learn " to get to the next level of flight.


  20. #45

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Actually,for the most part all that has happened here is a dispute of what the proper way of teaching is. if yearningtofly is already flying a 4channel
    T-28 proficiently enough to perform coordinated turns at scale bank angles, he will only most likely need some safety and intro to glow instruction.
    Maybe a few buddy box flights and some setup help. then if he can show that proficiency with the larger plane, he can be cut loose and fly how he
    wants with or without rudder. I have flown the T-28 and multiple high wing trainers and flying is flying you either get it or you don't.
    Chris Murphy

  21. #46

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: overbored77

    . if yearningtofly is already flying a 4channel
    T-28 proficiently enough to perform coordinated turns at scale bank angles
    well striving to make em scale at least.....



  22. #47
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.Β* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.Β* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,Β* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.Β* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.Β*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radioΒ*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Ill throw my 2 cents in...Having taught myself to fly RC over 40 years ago my view may be skewed. I did this by folding one from a refrigerator box and sticking an Enya 15 in the nose. I'd built a senior Falcon for a guy and had installed the equipment so I knew how things were done.

    But in my view, if you can fly the sim and the park flier, you are ready to tackle the larger model on your own. Forget the fact that's it's a glow engine. Would you feel different about it if it was E-powered? The powerplant makes no difference as long as it runs properly and you know enough common sense (horse sense) around a spinning prop. I'd suggest that you shouldn't be so timid about this and jump in with both feet
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  23. #48

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    We have one instructor ( which I think the world of him ) that will take up a prospective student and fly the plane WIDE OPEN ( GLOW ) and all the poor student is doing, is yanking and banking. This gets a new person very disappointed very quickly that they have no chance of controlling the plane at all and is not a good first experience. I have talked to the other instructor and ask him to slow the plane down so the student has a real chance of flying AND controlling the plane. To each his own way of teaching I guess.

  24. #49

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Damn Pattern guys throwing their 2 cents in. , especially the ones from Jersey
    Chris Murphy

  25. #50

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: MTK


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.Β* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.Β* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,Β* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.Β* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.Β*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radioΒ*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Ill throw my 2 cents in...Having taught myself to fly RC over 40 years ago my view may be skewed. I did this by folding one from a refrigerator box and sticking an Enya 15 in the nose. I'd built a senior Falcon for a guy and had installed the equipment so I knew how things were done.

    But in my view, if you can fly the sim and the park flier, you are ready to tackle the larger model on your own. Forget the fact that's it's a glow engine. Would you feel different about it if it was E-powered? The powerplant makes no difference as long as it runs properly and you know enough common sense (horse sense) around a spinning prop. I'd suggest that you shouldn't be so timid about this and jump in with both feet
    My feeling are that a glow powered plane if safer than a electric powered plane ( on the ground). At least with a running glow powered plane you have(hopefully) enough sense NOT to get close to the prop but an electric one is like a waiting gun to go off if your not careful around the radio. I agree that if you had the same plane ( trainer or what ever) and flew one with glow and the same plane with electric, they do not fly any different. GO FOR THE GLOW


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