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Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

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Old 01-05-2012, 04:53 PM
  #51
liamtsmith
 
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

A few years ago for my birthday, I got a flimsy $80 RC airplane, and crashed it first flight. This discouraged me, but I kept at it, and eventually bought a Hobby Zone Super Cub. That airplane is the BEST flying plane I've ever flown, or seen fly. It flies itself! I bought a Hobbico Avistar Select 40 used, and started to fly it with an instructor from a club in my city. I ended up going to the field to fly on a day that was too windy, and my instructor wasn't there either. I talked to a friend, who was still learning for himself, and decided to go fly with him. I have a feeling that would have ended in a crash. Luckily, before I got a chance to put the plane together, a gust of wind caught my wing and slammed it against a table. There was a good sized hole in the covering, and ended my chances of flying that day.

         After putting away the airplanes and gear for about a year, I drug all of the old stuff out. I decided to fly my Cub again, but had to replace the batteries. I have been flying for almost two months this time, and am getting a lot better. I have soloed 4 times with my nitro trainer, and haven't had a close call yet. I would recommend getting really good with your park fliers, and you'll have no problem flying a nitro. Same thing!

         For Christmas, I got a brand new Hangar 9 Katana 50, which Hangar 9 has just put on the market. Really nice airplane!! I have it assembled, but have no radio, servos, or engine. I love this hobby, and will stick with it. Just don't be scared by a nice roaring nitro engine. They are really fun planes to fly.



P.S. if you have a good .55" nitro engine you want to get rid of for cheap, hit me up!

     Thanks!


     Liam

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Old 01-05-2012, 05:07 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

I learned to fly on a plane with no rudder, and am flying a Nitro solo without any instruction from anybody else. Im 14, and have taught myself to fly with rudder on a 4 channel, but didnt fly with it untill i was ready. It is definitely not bad to wait untill you can fly without crashing to use it.



I also do see your point about having them taxi, though. That was what I did first. I just didnt fly with rudder for a while. I take off and land by myself.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:19 PM
  #53
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

One thing I insist on is that when a new pilot goes from say a small electric to any new plane whether it is ele. or glow is have someone qualified go over the new plane and check it out. I have heard time and time again that the "NEW" plane went the wrong way or didn't fly right. A lot of ( hate to say this ) the people that go from small electric to larger planes think they know how to "set it up " and end up picking up pieces. We have an unwritten policy in the club that "ANYONE" with a new plane has someone else look it over before the first flight. You get excited about getting it out to the field to fly it and forget to tighten the engine to the mount, tighten the mount to the fire wall, have the controls backward, engine won't shut off, set collars on wheels are loose and the list goes on and on. O yes and the new guy with a trainer says he only needs two rubber bands to hold the wing on.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:24 PM
  #54
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


This is great. At long last I have the opportunity to learn about the rudder. During my first flight in a full scale Cessna 172, my instructor said: "When you turn, lead with the rudder". However after having flown RC for a few years I still DO NOT lead with the rudder. I use it on the ground very well, and I use it on landing approaches. But when I bank left or right......I just don't feel the need to lead with the rudder. The plane will bank without the rudder.

So help me out here (and no laughing please). To bank left, apply left rudder first then left aileron? To bank right, apply right rudder first then right aileron? And what does leading with the rudder do? Make for more realistic turns?

Thanks!!
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


This is great. At long last I have the opportunity to learn about the rudder. During my first flight in a full scale Cessna 172, my instructor said: ''When you turn, lead with the rudder''. However after having flown RC for a few years I still DO NOT lead with the rudder. I use it on the ground very well, and I use it on landing approaches. But when I bank left or right......I just don't feel the need to lead with the rudder. The plane will bank without the rudder.

So help me out here (and no laughing please). To bank left, apply left rudder first then left aileron? To bank right, apply right rudder first then right aileron? And what does leading with the rudder do? Make for more realistic turns?

Thanks!!
Some planes fly fine without rudder. Others kind of drag their tail through a turn. Cubs and Decathlons are 2 good examples I can think of. If you roll them over on their side with no rudder applied, you see the tail dragging down low, nose pointing upward. A little bit of rudder, and bingo, the fuse is horizontal like it should be! It's very easy to spot if you know what to look for. Surprised the 172 didn't give you a better feel for this.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


This is great. At long last I have the opportunity to learn about the rudder. During my first flight in a full scale Cessna 172, my instructor said: ''When you turn, lead with the rudder''. However after having flown RC for a few years I still DO NOT lead with the rudder. I use it on the ground very well, and I use it on landing approaches. But when I bank left or right......I just don't feel the need to lead with the rudder. The plane will bank without the rudder.

So help me out here (and no laughing please). To bank left, apply left rudder first then left aileron? To bank right, apply right rudder first then right aileron? And what does leading with the rudder do? Make for more realistic turns?

Thanks!!
Have you tried a flat turn ? Turn left with the rudder and right with the ailerons and the plane will turn fairly flat
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:03 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

If your goal is to fly in a realistic manner then yes you would be correct. My point of veiw is a bit different. I have seen many an airplane nearly miss a pilot station during take off because it had drifted left and the pilot did not correct with rudder. Instead as the airplane broke ground it was banked hard right and almost stalled. If the pilot had been trained correctly he would have corrected the yaw before it got to that point. Landings are the same, I have seen lots of approaches where the model was getting pushed in and at the last moment was an aileron turn to get the airplane lined up again. Had rudder been utilized the approach and landing would have been done in a much safer manner.

IMO it's just unsafe to instruct without having the student demonstrate that he has FULL control of his airplane before sending him on his way. I see way too many pilots not have a good understanding of throttle and rudder control before being cut loose by the instructor. Sadly I have seen just as many instructrors that need this skill as well.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:06 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

During your fullsize instruction in the C172, you may have noticed the ball in the turn and slip indicator slide over to the inside of the turn direction (slide to the left in a left bank a fair amount and to the right in a right bank not as much) if you left your feet on the floor because the nose of the plane would be yawing away (a.k.a adverse) from the turn dragging the tail to the inside of the turn. The term "step on the ball" during a turn refers to using the rudder pedals to "step" on the side you see the ball sliding towards to control the adverse yaw and so on. Yes, most models don't "require" a lot of rudder to fly coordinated turns, but others (like a Cub) can really benefit from it. Leading the turn with the rudder refers to applying some pressure (not full deflection) on the rudder just before adding in the aileron input. Again, it's very obvious when you are inside the plane and you can feel it "in the seat of your pants" when the nose is swinging away from the turn direction, but it's pretty subtle from 50 to 100 feet away looking up from the ground.

The nose yaws away from the turn because the downward moving aileron on the outside of the turn produces more lift and more DRAG than the upward moving aileron on the inside of the turn. That drag way out on the end of the wing holds it back just a bit and the only way to counter it is to use the rudder to yaw the nose back towards the turn.

Anyone else want a turn on the soapbox?

Jaybird
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #59
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

I only had a couple lessons in the 172 before I realized I couldn't afford it.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab

I only had a couple lessons in the 172 before I realized I couldn't afford it.
Yup, that makes a LOT of sense! I was still struggling to believe I wasn't dreaming at that point!

At least you got the chance to do that. It's something everyone should get the chance to do, but that many never will.

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Old 01-05-2012, 06:50 PM
  #61
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

I remember the full size lesson. From the start you had to use the rudder and get a feel for it. If you are slow and your turn are not coordinated, the plane has a higher stall speed which lead to many take off and landing accidents.
Now in a rc plane, rudder use is a little intimidating, there is very little reference of how much rudder to use to make a coordinated turn.
But in my opinion a rc student should learn to use the rudder at a very early stage.
In this case the student already had experience and flew using the rudder, there is no reason to teach him otherwise.
For the average sport flier it might not be a big deal, but when you get more proficient, do aerobatics or even 3D, you have to know how to use the rudder.
Find a different instructor.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:19 PM
  #62
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

You must mean Nitro.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:15 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

During your fullsize instruction in the C172, you may have noticed the ball in the turn and slip indicator slide over to the inside of the turn direction (slide to the left in a left bank a fair amount and to the right in a right bank not as much) if you left your feet on the floor because the nose of the plane would be yawing away (a.k.a adverse) from the turn dragging the tail to the inside of the turn. The term "step on the ball" during a turn refers to using the rudder pedals to "step" on the side you see the ball sliding towards to control the adverse yaw and so on. Yes, most models don't "require" a lot of rudder to fly coordinated turns, but others (like a Cub) can really benefit from it. Leading the turn with the rudder refers to applying some pressure (not full deflection) on the rudder just before adding in the aileron input. Again, it's very obvious when you are inside the plane and you can feel it "in the seat of your pants" when the nose is swinging away from the turn direction, but it's pretty subtle from 50 to 100 feet away looking up from the ground.

The nose yaws away from the turn because the downward moving aileron on the outside of the turn produces more lift and more DRAG than the upward moving aileron on the inside of the turn. That drag way out on the end of the wing holds it back just a bit and the only way to counter it is to use the rudder to yaw the nose back towards the turn.

Anyone else want a turn on the soapbox?

Jaybird
Very good,, That is how I learned. +1
I have set up planes in the past with more up deflection than down to counter this.
But good stick and Rudder is the way to go to learn an airplane.

Tim

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Old 01-05-2012, 08:24 PM
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Leroy Gardner
 
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

Some of you guys are really good, I mean know how to train and treat someone. I remember when I bought my Alfa 40 trainer and opened it up and found a radio with no rudder pedals and started wondering how the heck you suppose to fly this thing ?. Well my problem is/was that I've been a pilot and now I was about to learn the true meaning of hand-eye coordinationand fly with two thunbs and hang on to the radio all at the same time. I also had an instructor that said don't touch that one, we won't be useing the rudder. They did'nt say that when I went to flight school and figured this guy don't know how to fly so how the h is he going to teach me. As it turned out, the plane flew pretty well without the rudder and -well I was surprised. There is alot of difference however, not being in the plane there times when every thing is backwards. Anyway you new guys will be pretty busy with the right joy stick and getting your bearings and the rudder will come in time. Learn the basics first and work in the rudder a little bit at a time because you'll need it when you move up to foiled wings and full foiled planes.

I was told that pilots are the worst guys to train and they are probably right. It took over a mounth to get out of that plane, that was 5 yrs. ago and I'll fly anything today.

Fly safe and have fun doing it. Leroy
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:52 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: opjose


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SeamusG

As far as the comment that most guys out here don't use a rudder - emmm. Watch them fly. Are they flying maneuvers in a way that you want to fly? Are they flying race track patterns all day?
Newbies are normally taught to keep their hands off the rudder to get them aclimated to using the ailerons for primary control.

That is a proper teaching proceedure that this poster may have not understood.

Indeed most newbies have their hands off the rudder until they have progressed quite a bit.

Someone coming off a 3 channel park flyer may not understand that.

Wrong, Wrong, U are absolutly Wrong ... U talk like an Ultra lite Instructor I knew ... He preached NO RUDDER. Well because he failed to use rudder in a tight turn to final ounce he's DEAD. Spun it right into the ground trying to get out of a stall spin with Alerions alone.

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Old 01-05-2012, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: MTK


Quote:
ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

Trained on the sim extensively. Feel confident.

Started with parkflyers. No issues.

Decided to get a gas trainer, look at clubs and an instructor.

Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me. Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.

Want to buy a gas trainer and radio ?

Park is where it is at for me.
Ill throw my 2 cents in...Having taught myself to fly RC over 40 years ago my view may be skewed. I did this by folding one from a refrigerator box and sticking an Enya 15 in the nose. I'd built a senior Falcon for a guy and had installed the equipment so I knew how things were done.

But in my view, if you can fly the sim and the park flier, you are ready to tackle the larger model on your own. Forget the fact that's it's a glow engine. Would you feel different about it if it was E-powered? The powerplant makes no difference as long as it runs properly and you know enough common sense (horse sense) around a spinning prop. I'd suggest that you shouldn't be so timid about this and jump in with both feet

+1
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

Learning to use the rudder from the very beginning is the ONLY way to go. Teaching someone to fly without teaching them how to use the rudder is teaching them BAD HABITS that they will later have to break. Proper rudder control is the only way to correct torque induced yaw on takeoff. Rudder coordination is vital when making a PROPER, SAFE approach to landing in a crosswind.

There are a great many model aircraft that won't fly well without proper use of the rudder. Just about all bipes, for one, as well as most of the more popular scale models. Teaching someone to fly by forbidding them to use the rudder is a disservice and (IMHO, at least) bad teaching technique.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:53 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

Not using rudder....sheesh!

I have heard some drivel in my day but most of this thread takes the cake! Frankly I am amazed at how many people only use the rudder to steer the plane on the ground, and dont get me started on the throttle which might as well be a two position switch!

If I am teaching you, and I have taught many, plan on using the rudder!
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:01 PM
  #69
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

I'll add my penny to the plate. My instructor also taught me to fly without rudder. Very bad. I had to take a few steps backward to learn the rudder skill.

Use Rudder a lot for scale flying as well as aerobatics especially in anything requiring a slow roll.
Even for turns I find that initiating the turn with rudder, blending in the elevator and ailerons to be the technique that works well for me. just simply using ailerons also works buts not as effective when you get to more advanced flying. Rudder  is your friend and an instructor who does not recognise that is not worth the paper his certificate is printed on.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

On cross wind days, attendence at our field drops by at least 50%. Guess why...
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

you just had a bad instructor when I was learning it was the exact opposite I wasnt allowed to use ailerons till I learned how to fly with just rudder and elevator which is the way you should be taught. Anybody can fly with just ailerons and elevator thats easy...
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:40 PM
  #72
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

I learned with a 2 channel glider and was self taught from that point on. I don't see any hard fast, one size fits all type rules that everybody needs to follow. Learning how to master yaw control can be done at the new pilot's leisure if he is flying a plane that is otherwise fully capable of safe flight with just pitch and roll control.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:24 AM
  #73
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


[quote]ORIGINAL: liamtsmith

I learned to fly on a plane with no rudder, and am flying a Nitro solo without any instruction from anybody else. Im 14, and have taught myself to fly with rudder on a 4 channel, but didnt fly with it untill i was ready. It is definitely not bad to wait untill you can fly without crashing to use it.



I also do see your point about having them taxi, though. That was what I did first. I just didnt fly with rudder for a while. I take off and land by myself.

Very good job, keep practicing and going to the field, you are going to meet a lot of good people and maybe get into competitions one day.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:52 AM
  #74
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

Hmm, intersecting runways in the Tampa area, sounds like Bay City Flyers. Thats the only field that has intersecting runways I am aware of. There are several more clubs in the area with many more instructors. CAN-AM, West pasco, SPARKS, TRAC, Triple Creek, all are in the Tampa vicinity. If you bring your plane to TRAC, I am sure someone would be happy to help you get your plane set up at no charge. There is still a lot of people that havent realized the advantages of larger electric aircraft, unfortunately, those are at times instructors and they convey their opinions to new people. If a person wants to learn to fly RC airplanes, their best bet in my opinion is electric power. The electrics are not so troublesome as the glow engines. It can be very frustrating for a student who wants to fly to instead spend his time with starters, glow plugs, tuning engines, glow drivers and cleaning fuel goo from their planes. I learned to fly with a glow powered trainer but if the availibility of good electric power components and prices had been what they are now, electric would have been much better. Most people get into this hobby to fly, not to become engine tuning experts. If a person prefers the sound and smell of glow fuel engines, then thats the direction they should go. You have to decide for yourself what you want. As far as using the rudder, I have never heard anyone say not to use it when learning. I can understand the first couple flights having a student use elevator and ailerons just to begin learning the basic concepts of moving the aircraft in the air but rudder has to be part of the training at an early stage or the first crash will come much sooner once the student starts to learn to land especially. In this hobby as with life, there is no shortage of opinions but there is a real shortage of good advice at times. Good luck.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:14 AM
  #75
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Default RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vpresley

I think you mean GLO? Not gas. Sounds like a bad instructor, rudder is very important to learn. Glo is a little more clean up, but its also longer flight times and more power, unless your spending the big bucks for large electric motors, ESCs and LiPo batteries. Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Do whats easiest for you.


Vince
Why would you think you get longer flight times with glo?
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