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  1. #76
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    I learned with a 2 channel glider and was self taught from that point on. I don't see any hard fast, one size fits all type rules that everybody needs to follow. Learning how to master yaw control can be done at the new pilot's leisure if he is flying a plane that is otherwise fully capable of safe flight with just pitch and roll control.
    Pitch and Roll Control are not enough to fly down a flight line with 4 or so other pilots and their spotters standing on the line ... it's just not safe.. I agree a plane is capable of controled flight with just Pitch (Eleavator) and Roll (aileron) Up in the air but not landing and take off, this needs rudder. Why else did the AMA require all jets to have Rudder(s). Not useing Rudder on landing and Take off is the reason so many wing tips get scrached to bits and there are so many close calls on the flight line. It's an ignorant or at least uninformed pilot that thinks a rudder is unesential for good fling habbits and proper safty. Heck even the Wright Brothers had a rudder Long before Alierons.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  2. #77
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: airega1


    ORIGINAL: vpresley

    I think you mean GLO? Not gas. Sounds like a bad instructor, rudder is very important to learn. Glo is a little more clean up, but its also longer flight times and more power, unless your spending the big bucks for large electric motors, ESCs and LiPo batteries. Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Do whats easiest for you.


    Vince
    Why would you think you get longer flight times with glo?
    Because I don't have a Glo or Gasser that won't fly at least 15 minutes or Longer (at full Power). Try that with your electric. Electric has it's place, and it's getting much improved, but still pound for pound and dollar for dollar it isn't quite there yet, but it's getting there. I was spotting for a friend yesterday, flying a small 3D Electric ... He could not do any 3D because his Battery was getting old and would not put out the power anymore. NUF SAID.
    As for Ease of learning, That's the problem with our society to day "Everyone wants it "EASY". ARF's are "Easy." Elect's are "EASY". No buddy wants to put a little effort into anything anymore. If U aren't willing to put in the effort to learn proper Technique, U won't reap the rewards.



    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  3. #78

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    I learned with a 2 channel glider and was self taught from that point on. I don't see any hard fast, one size fits all type rules that everybody needs to follow. Learning how to master yaw control can be done at the new pilot's leisure if he is flying a plane that is otherwise fully capable of safe flight with just pitch and roll control.
    On the bold, this is what it's all about in my book. Suggested teaching processes are fun for somebody teaching to read through for ideas, but should be used as a very rough guideline I think. The student determines the actual lesson. If your teaching style is so rigid you can't/won't adjust your teaching style or lesson content on a "by student" basis, perhaps it's time to take a step back and review what you're doing and why.

    The other piece to this that's often overlooked, is the student and instructor should be having fun working together. If there's an issue there, all bets are off. You need to part ways, possibly introducing the student to another instructor?

    The LAST thing you want to do as an instructor is queer somebody's thoughts of learning how to fly - something already pretty intimidating for many/most students. They've already made the very difficult decision to ask for help. Those first few lessons/flights really need to pay off for him to want to continue.


  4. #79
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    After reading all these post, one thing stands out. I don't see any consistancy with training methods. I do know that some clubs have a check list of manuevers that must be satisfactorly completed by the student prior to be allowed to solo. Some clubs just have the "get em to where they can take off and land" then the rest will fall into place. IMHO, I like the checklist approach. I learned the get em to where that can take off and land approach. Which I believe has placed me a litlte behind the curve as far as my skills as a pilot. Perhaps there should be guidelines that are sectioned into say beginners skill set: figure eights, stalls, landing approach from left turn, landing approach from right turn, touch and goes. Then intermediate skill set: rolls, loops, hammerheads etc... then advanced skill set: immelman, cuban eight, reverse cuban eight etc...
    If I had worked with an instructor through this step by step approach, I'm certain I would be a much better pilot today. It has been four years since I soloed, and I still need work on final approach setup. Can I fly? Yes. Can I land safely? Yes. Can I get out of trouble? Yes. Do I feel 100% confident in my abilities? No, I do not. Don't get me wrong, my instructors are great folks and I have learned alot from them. But just feel that a more structered training approach would've been better for me. Having said that I never mentioned to them that I would like to be trained in this manner. I'm certain they would've taken the time to teach me had I ask them to. If you are not happy with the way things are going, speak up! A good instrustor will listen and apply what you have to say. If they don't then find another instructor or club that suits your needs. I also believe that there is no subistute for "stick time". Just like a full scale pilot, the more flight time you have, the better you become.
    SSGT USMC 75,83 Son Brian USMC Intel/Excelon Energy Corp, Son Matt USMC Air Traffic Control/Penn State

  5. #80

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    I'll keep it simple.


    Try flying a scale WWI or most WWII planes without rudder and see what happens? A Cub or any true scale would be a good example as well.


    I only fly glow and admire gas, I started on electric and I'm not turning back. Any instructor that doesn't teach you how to use the rudder in turns (On and off the ground) is not a very good instuctor or pilot in my opinion.

    Different strokes for different folks I guess? If you want to truely advance your flying skills- I suggest that you start using your rudder. If you try and not use the rudder in a full scale aircraft, they won't let you solo.

    I see no difference between the full size and RC glow/gas, the only difference is we are not in the plane. Electric planes are more like toys to me and it's not for me, I like my aircraft to have some scale weight to them and to have them fly scale.

    That's just me.

    Pete

  6. #81
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Teach rudder later ?
    very strange
    I found that the best trainer for outdoor flying, was /is the Sig Senorita or similar design
    It is rudder, elev and engine model
    For indoor flying a VAPOR is easily the best
    again rudder , elev and motor
    The transmitter for either model -I setup such that either rudder or aileron stick provides turning and the flier soon learns to use either
    Learning throttle control is also done from first flight
    If you are uncomfortable with rudder use , you really are not qualified to teach.
    Libby is still watching you

  7. #82

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: billd76

    After reading all these post, one thing stands out. I don't see any consistancy with training methods. I do know that some clubs have a check list of manuevers that must be satisfactorly completed by the student prior to be allowed to solo.
    In the UK, the BMFA (British Model Flying Association) manage an "Achievement Scheme" for various types/levels of model flying. Generally an "A" test is required to fly solo at a club, and at least a "B" test is required to fly at a public event.

    You may find the information at BMFA Achievement Scheme interesting.

    Best Regards,
    =Adrian=

  8. #83
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: adavis


    ORIGINAL: billd76

    After reading all these post, one thing stands out. I don't see any consistancy with training methods. I do know that some clubs have a check list of manuevers that must be satisfactorly completed by the student prior to be allowed to solo.
    In the UK, the BMFA (British Model Flying Association) manage an ''Achievement Scheme'' for various types/levels of model flying. Generally an ''A'' test is required to fly solo at a club, and at least a ''B'' test is required to fly at a public event.

    You may find the information at BMFA Achievement Scheme interesting.

    Best Regards,
    =Adrian=
    That's what I'm talking about!!
    SSGT USMC 75,83 Son Brian USMC Intel/Excelon Energy Corp, Son Matt USMC Air Traffic Control/Penn State

  9. #84
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    I wonder when you take a lesson to fly full scale, do they tell you "dont touch that rudder" ? I am an AMA certified instructor (for what it's worth) and I teach rudder as soon as I think the student can handle it. Real aircraft use the rudder all the time for course correction on landing, coordinated turns and to counteract the P- factor on take off. You can watch pilots at any given field struggle to line up a landing using aileron only and on takeoff they try to counter act the torque of the engine using aileron usually with disastrous results. I will have students practice turning using the rudder and elevator only trying to keep their turns as flat as possible. They usually see the advantage right away when it comes time to solo and land, that minor course corrections are better with rudder. Keep the wings level with aileron, and correct direction with rudder.
    If what you believed to be true was false would you want to know the truth?

    "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

  10. #85

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    How much for the trainer and radio?

  11. #86

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    YearningtoFly

    Come on up to SC. Ill get you flying!!! Just bring yourself no fuel no plane nothing you can use my stuff and you can stay at my place if you want. Dont give up because of one bad experience.

  12. #87
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    That guy's not an instructor, he's a destructor! Avoid him at all possible cost. Anyone who makes a comment like that doesn't know how to fly ... no matter what they claim.
    We in the Federal Government have no sense of humor that we are aware of.

  13. #88
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: benboy17

    YearningtoFly

    Come on up to SC. Ill get you flying!!! Just bring yourself no fuel no plane nothing you can use my stuff and you can stay at my place if you want. Dont give up because of one bad experience.
    well said!!!
    SSGT USMC 75,83 Son Brian USMC Intel/Excelon Energy Corp, Son Matt USMC Air Traffic Control/Penn State

  14. #89

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: raptureboy

    I wonder when you take a lesson to fly full scale, do they tell you ''dont touch that rudder'' ? I am an AMA certified instructor (for what it's worth) and I teach rudder as soon as I think the student can handle it. Real aircraft use the rudder all the time for course correction on landing, coordinated turns and to counteract the P- factor on take off. You can watch pilots at any given field struggle to line up a landing using aileron only and on takeoff they try to counter act the torque of the engine using aileron usually with disastrous results. I will have students practice turning using the rudder and elevator only trying to keep their turns as flat as possible. They usually see the advantage right away when it comes time to solo and land, that minor course corrections are better with rudder. Keep the wings level with aileron, and correct direction with rudder.

    No. People with a certified FAA instructor rating teach all students to make smooth controlled turns using the aileron and coordinated rudder. It starts right after they have the student make trimmed climbs and level flight. I am talking about the first hands on flight after some ground schooling is completed. I am a FAA 107 pilot and I am allowed to test all single seat, single engine light experimental aircraft including ultralights.

    But after a few years of not flying, I get a instuctor and grab a few recap flights in order to get the rust out. I currently have 399 hours in flight and hope to own my own aircraft in a few years.


    Pete

  15. #90
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    How many times do U see a so called pilot just let the plane fly it's self on landing, just so it's some where on the runway. Doesn't matter if it's now where near the center line. It can be way across the field or right in front of the pilot stations. Heaven forbid keeping it straight or in the middle. Oops can't fly to day, pattern is wrong way or too much cross wind. No buddy wants to take the time to acquire the skill to do things with percussion any more. OH that's OK I don't have to do much repair, it's an OK landing. Some people will "NEVER" be skilled R/C pilots. So What so long they aren't dangerous. I'd rather see a guy take off at a 45 degree angle straight away from them selves than have him loose control and smash into the pits or pilot stations  When he can't keep it straight because he was never taught proper Rudder control. Proper Rudder control will save your life in Full Scale and your model and pride in R/C.

    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  16. #91
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: Oberst

    ORIGINAL: raptureboy

    I wonder when you take a lesson to fly full scale, do they tell you ''dont touch that rudder'' ? I am an AMA certified instructor (for what it's worth) and I teach rudder as soon as I think the student can handle it. Real aircraft use the rudder all the time for course correction on landing, coordinated turns and to counteract the P- factor on take off. You can watch pilots at any given field struggle to line up a landing using aileron only and on takeoff they try to counter act the torque of the engine using aileron usually with disastrous results. I will have students practice turning using the rudder and elevator only trying to keep their turns as flat as possible. They usually see the advantage right away when it comes time to solo and land, that minor course corrections are better with rudder. Keep the wings level with aileron, and correct direction with rudder.

    No. People with a certified FAA instructor rating teach all students to make smooth controlled turns using the aileron and coordinated rudder. It starts right after they have the student make trimmed climbs and level flight. I am talking about the first hands on flight after some ground schooling is completed. I am a FAA 107 pilot and I am allowed to test all single seat, single engine light experimental aircraft including ultralights.

    But after a few years of not flying, I get a instuctor and grab a few recap flights in order to get the rust out. I currently have 399 hours in flight and hope to own my own aircraft in a few years.


    Pete
    "Step on the Ball"
    Ever hear that before?
    "
    Only 1700 hours SEL Instrument ... Complex
    Safty is No accedent

    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  17. #92

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: HoundDog


    ORIGINAL: Oberst

    ORIGINAL: raptureboy

    I wonder when you take a lesson to fly full scale, do they tell you ''dont touch that rudder'' ? I am an AMA certified instructor (for what it's worth) and I teach rudder as soon as I think the student can handle it. Real aircraft use the rudder all the time for course correction on landing, coordinated turns and to counteract the P- factor on take off. You can watch pilots at any given field struggle to line up a landing using aileron only and on takeoff they try to counter act the torque of the engine using aileron usually with disastrous results. I will have students practice turning using the rudder and elevator only trying to keep their turns as flat as possible. They usually see the advantage right away when it comes time to solo and land, that minor course corrections are better with rudder. Keep the wings level with aileron, and correct direction with rudder.

    No. People with a certified FAA instructor rating teach all students to make smooth controlled turns using the aileron and coordinated rudder. It starts right after they have the student make trimmed climbs and level flight. I am talking about the first hands on flight after some ground schooling is completed. I am a FAA 107 pilot and I am allowed to test all single seat, single engine light experimental aircraft including ultralights.

    But after a few years of not flying, I get a instuctor and grab a few recap flights in order to get the rust out. I currently have 399 hours in flight and hope to own my own aircraft in a few years.


    Pete
    ****** ''Step on the Ball''
    ************ ** Ever hear that before?
    ''
    ************************* ****************** Only 1700 hours SEL Instrument* ... Complex
    ************************* ************************* ******* Safty is No accedent


    LOL! " Level out at 3,000- Wings level- Nose level with Horizon! Watch your airspeed, turn and slip to 030! OK, now find our airport!"

    Now the famous one... "Engine quit, where you gonna land?"

    I love highways, hmmm I wonder what it be like to land against traffic? [&:]

    I also wonder if the FAA peeks at our posts?

    ... I say no more.


    Pete

  18. #93
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    LOL! " Level out at 3,000- Wings level- Nose level with Horizon! Watch your airspeed, turn and slip to 030! OK, now find our airport!"

        99% of the time the airport was straight off the nose a 5 miles. Better call the tower.

    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  19. #94
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    A bit off topic but.. Anybody ever try to fly a helicopter without using the rudder? It's darn near impossible to control.

    Learn the rudder ASAP, you will be better off in the end.

    Ken
    Sent from my Dry-Erase-Board

  20. #95
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    our club trainers are all volunteers, no pay. We share what others shared with us to get us flying.....passing it forward.

    Rick
    "You only live once. But if you do it right,once is enough."Mae West
    \"Learn from the mistakes of others.You won’t live long enough to make all of them yourself.\"

  21. #96

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.

    No, Gas RC was not the mistake. The mistake was your instructor. Good that most on the forum agree:-)

    Gerry

  22. #97
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    I am VFR rated for 15 years and got in to RC 3 years ago, and my flight instruction was from a former Israli F-18 pilot, and we used the rudder in conjuction with aelerons from the start. RC is a bit different, I went right to 4 channel to avoid the whole re-learning left stick rudder and that worked for me.

    Good luck and fly on....

    -Rick

    "You only live once. But if you do it right,once is enough."Mae West
    \"Learn from the mistakes of others.You won’t live long enough to make all of them yourself.\"

  23. #98

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    I have heard this at my field as well. I use the Rudder extensively. So much so, I crashed my first trainer when I changed out a rudder servo and did not check the direction of travel. I flew it into the ground before I knew what I did. When I told my buddies what happened, they asked why I was using the rudder. They said they never use the rudder.

    For me, Rudder is very important especially when doing any 3D maneuvers. Trainers, due to flat bottom wing, also can have adverse Yaw and the rudder can correct and actually improve the ability to land. Rudder can actually help the novice by removing the adverse yaw and allow them to progress to the next level quicker. One can do this without them fiddling with the rudder stick as well (one less thing for them to worry about. Can bring in rudder stick in later). There are two ways, one is mixing the aileron/rudder in the radio or using a Y-connector and connecting the aileron and rudder servos to the aileron channel on the receiver. When turning left with the ailerons, the rudder turns left to coordinate the turn. Can really improve turning flight and successful landings. The throws are set normally prior to mixing the channels.

    Yes, flying can be done without rudder, but the full potential of the airplane will not be reached without it. There are so many factors working against the airplane in flight, that the rudder is absolutely necessary to fly good clean patterns. Just like you can fly some planes without ailerons using the rudder, they can be flown without the rudder using ailerons. The best pilots use all 4 channels, not just 3. But you don't have to bring all of the channels in all at once for the beginner. The easier you can get them to successful flying, landing and takeoff, the better.

  24. #99
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: billd76

    After reading all these post, one thing stands out. I don't see any consistancy with training methods. I do know that some clubs have a check list of manuevers that must be satisfactorly completed by the student prior to be allowed to solo. Some clubs just have the ''get em to where they can take off and land'' then the rest will fall into place. IMHO, I like the checklist approach. I learned the get em to where that can take off and land approach. Which I believe has placed me a litlte behind the curve as far as my skills as a pilot. Perhaps there should be guidelines that are sectioned into say beginners skill set: figure eights, stalls, landing approach from left turn, landing approach from right turn, touch and goes. Then intermediate skill set: rolls, loops, hammerheads etc... then advanced skill set: immelman, cuban eight, reverse cuban eight etc...
    If I had worked with an instructor through this step by step approach, I'm certain I would be a much better pilot today. It has been four years since I soloed, and I still need work on final approach setup. Can I fly? Yes. Can I land safely? Yes. Can I get out of trouble? Yes. Do I feel 100% confident in my abilities? No, I do not. Don't get me wrong, my instructors are great folks and I have learned alot from them. But just feel that a more structered training approach would've been better for me. Having said that I never mentioned to them that I would like to be trained in this manner. I'm certain they would've taken the time to teach me had I ask them to. If you are not happy with the way things are going, speak up! A good instrustor will listen and apply what you have to say. If they don't then find another instructor or club that suits your needs. I also believe that there is no subistute for ''stick time''. Just like a full scale pilot, the more flight time you have, the better you become.
    Once I got tired of 2 channel gliders and "old timers" that basically fly themselves from launch to landing I moved up to a 4 channel trainer. By this time 2 or 3 years of wonderful RC related times had gone by.
    While exploring the capabilities of this new plane with seperate yaw control, I eased my way into knife edge flight and tumbling maneuvers. I still didn't have much use for rudder command at the fields I flew at for take offs and landings, but gradually over time I mastered that.
    My point is that whenever you feel the need to expand your capabilities beyond just basic flight, go up high and feel things out.
    It's silly to draw comparisons between this stuff and full scale flight. Unless the RC student is in a hurry to catch his bus back to Timbucktu, there's always time to learn the finer points as the need arises.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  25. #100
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    You do not use it for NORMAL flying.
    You may not, but you SHOUL use it for normal flying. Even a normal turn can be inproved with a bit of rudder.
    Glow Head Brotherhood #15


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