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  1. #101
    billd76's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    there's always time to learn the finer points as the need arises.
    [/quote]
    Time, as you said. time on the sticks is important. I was only refering to full scale in that aspect. The more we fly the better and more comfortable we become. Certainly not comparing the two. Some full scale pilots have told me that it is easier to fly full scale than RC. For me I just would feel more comfortable having an instructor show me the manuevers, and them assist with talking me through the manuever when I try it.
    SSGT USMC 75,83 Son Brian USMC Intel/Excelon Energy Corp, Son Matt USMC Air Traffic Control/Penn State

  2. #102
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Find a competent instructor. Glue you left thumb to the stick even if you are not actively using it at first. Otherwise, you will be building in a big bad habit that will inhibit your advancement as you move on to bigger and better things. Ignore at your own peril.
    West Coast Regional Director- Classic Pattern Association
    Team Tailwinds

  3. #103
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: billd76


    there's always time to learn the finer points as the need arises.
    Time, as you said. time on the sticks is important. I was only refering to full scale in that aspect. The more we fly the better and more comfortable we become. Certainly not comparing the two. Some full scale pilots have told me that it is easier to fly full scale than RC. For me I just would feel more comfortable having an instructor show me the manuevers, and them assist with talking me through the manuever when I try it.
    [/quote]

    I wasn't aiming the remark about comparing RC to full scale at you as much as other posts I've read.
    If you've got a firm handle on spin recovery / stall recovery.....there isn't too much trouble you will get yourself into by exploring rudder control on your own at a safe height.
    If you make a concerted effort to spend some time each flight to explore crabbing into the wind and other rudder related calisthentics...you'll be "Mr. Rudder" before you know it.
    I think it helps to rehearse and visualize what it is you want to work on in advance, while you're not at the field.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  4. #104

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    i tighten my turns with judicious*rudder...maybe* im doing it wrong
    in our conversation i mentioned coordinated flight, shallow bank angles and rudder usage

    and that is*when he advised me about not using or even touching the rudder with him*

    i wanted to join at this field due to the bisecting runways

    but might look into the other club in tampa

    YearningtoFly
    You are totally right about coordinated flight. That is the proper way to fly and must of us in the RC world cheat. When you get into larger aircraft (>25%) you'll realize you need that rudder to actually make it turn. I would be thrilled if you were my student. This is lost on most RC pilots and Instructors. Keep at it. You might not find your ideal flight instructor and you may have to bite your tongue a little. You may have more academic knowledge about how the airplane should fly but your instructor should have more experience. Get your wings and when your on your own fly the way you know the airplane should be flown.

    As far as Gas. If you were talking about Gasoline as opposed to Nitro, it would depend. If your OK with most people at the field not knowing anything about a gasoline engine and being on your own, go for it. $4 per gallon as opposed to $20 per gallon, if your going to do a lot of flying, makes sense. But most of the guys out there are using nitro stuff on the entry level and you'll have to learn on your own.
    Good Luck

  5. #105
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: dgholmes59

    I have heard this at my field as well. *I use the Rudder extensively. *So much so, I crashed my first trainer when I changed out a rudder servo and did not check the direction of travel. *I flew it into the ground before I knew what I did. *When I told my buddies what happened, they asked why I was using the rudder. *They said they never use the rudder. *

    For me, Rudder is very important especially when doing any 3D maneuvers. * Trainers, due to flat bottom wing, also can have adverse Yaw and the rudder can correct and actually improve the ability to land. *Rudder can actually help the novice by removing the adverse yaw and allow them to progress to the next level quicker. *One can do this without them fiddling with the rudder stick as well (one less thing for them to worry about. *Can bring in rudder stick in later). *There are two ways, one is mixing the aileron/rudder in the radio or using a Y-connector and connecting the aileron and rudder servos to the aileron channel on the receiver. *When turning left with the ailerons, the rudder turns left to coordinate the turn. *Can really improve turning flight and successful landings. *The throws are set normally prior to mixing the channels.

    Yes, flying can be done without rudder, but the full potential of the airplane will not be reached without it. *There are so many factors working against the airplane in flight, that the rudder is absolutely necessary to fly good clean patterns. *Just like you can fly some planes without ailerons using the rudder, they can be flown without the rudder using ailerons. *The best pilots use all 4 channels, not just 3. *But you don't have to bring all of the channels in all at once for the beginner. *The easier you can get them to successful flying, landing and takeoff, the better. *
    Depending on the OP's radio, it can be mixed electronically too. This is where a good instructor/good club can help out, as this isn't a beginner tip/trick to program your radio. I agree with what's been said that the rudder is not crucial to R/C flight (in most planes), but it sure helps a lot, especially with high wing, flat bottom, high dihedral planes. I was not taught extensive rudder use when learning to fly, but got the basics, and sure wasn't told NOT to use the rudder. As I've progressed in my flying after getting back into the hobby a few years ago, I wish I had known more about rudder use, as crosswind landings messed with me too! Flying 3D has made me use the rudder all the time, and now I don't feel comfortable without it.
    Crashing my way to being a better pilot!
    Saito Club# 679

  6. #106
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Well it's time to chime in here. First I have not read all the posts. so if I am stepping on someone else's post with this information, I'm sorry but here is my take on this subject.

    1. You can DRIVE an airplane through the sky without using rudder. You cannot FLY an airplane through the sky without using rudder.

    2. Propeller driven airplanes need coordinating rudder applications in normal flight. Slips, crosswind take-offs and landings are better performed with opposite rudder applications to aileron even and especially in jets.

    3. Jet powered aircraft can be driven through areial maneuvers without use of any rudder application. To FLY the airplane in most maneuvers, skillful use of rudder application results in smoother, easier, and more positive control of the machine.

    I spent two years flying the famous C-123, two R-2800s and two small jets for certain work, and I loved it. Most pilots complained about the difficulty in ailerons. I decided it was just a big old RC flat bottom wing design, so rudder was sorely needed with aileron pressure. When aileron was needed, gentle coordinating rudder application made it so very easy. A smoothly flown airplane using all the available controls can make almost any airplane a joy to fly. Of courese each aircraft has its own paramaters, but PILOTS can find them, while airplane-drivers may never discover such.

    When I was flying for UAL, we had to take annual simulator check-rides. The simulator was programed for aileron only except during engine-out. Some of the older Sim instructors preached, You don't need rudder in a jet. It was futlile to argue so I flew the sim as they wanted. In the airplanes the use of rudder was super, especially in approaches and landings. Other flight was super smooth with a slight rudder touch when banking.

    I instructed in both USAF T-33 and T-38 aircraft. Rudder applications made all the differences. My students learned such and were great pilots. Others were not so fortunate. Sometimes when flying with someone else's student, and we had a chance to make a few landings, most of these studs. would pitch-out with no rudder and both helmets hit the opposite sides of the canopy. Well, with a bit of tidy instruction, and applied rudder in the pitch, all buttocks stayed firmly in the seat, the roll was much smoother and altitude control in that quick level wing to 60-70* bank was minimal, and all was well. Never had a student gripe about what he just learned.

    So YOU make YOUR choice. PILOTS learn the use of rudder in control coordination. Airplane Drivers, well there are other names for them like TARGETS!
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    “Peace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  7. #107

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: wyo69cowboy

    Flying 3D has made me use the rudder all the time, and now I don't feel comfortable without it.
    +1. In fact, flying 3D maneuvers progressed me ahead in flying faster than anything I have done, except for the simulator. I now fly a 50cc WH Extra 260 and knifeedge, hovering, flat spins, etc. would be impossible without the rudder. So if you are going to progress to aerobatics later, which you most likely will, learn the rudder. I will tell you though, my instructor did not use rudder either, but he was a great instructor and flyer. I taught myself to use the rudder, first during landings to line the plane up, using ailerons to keep the wings level. I think I read about it on this forum.

  8. #108
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: Hossfly

    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Well it's time to chime in here. First I have not read all the posts. so if I am stepping on someone else's post with this information, I'm sorry but here is my take on this subject.

    1. You can DRIVE an airplane through the sky without using rudder. You cannot FLY an airplane through the sky without using rudder.
    Airplane Drivers, well there are other names for them like TARGETS!
    LOL
    Crashing my way to being a better pilot!
    Saito Club# 679

  9. #109

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Woa!!!! We lost YerningToFly Way back at page 2

    He says He already is using rudder!!


    All I want is, that he doesnt let this hobby die by settling for park fliers.

    YerningToFly !!! come back !!! I hear you!!! I beleve In You!!! I bet you can fly better than 75% of the people telling you what to do!!!

    Picture this - A 50cc electric , Yea I does not need to be gas or glo!!! I bet U could take my 59" 3D Hobby Shop AJ Slick and impress everyone !

    And you would love it!!!!


    SO SORRY WE ALL WERE NOT LISTENING TO YOU !!!

  10. #110

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Everyone we owe the O.P. a sorry.     This is why the hobby is dying. 

    To many of us Know it alls, run down a rabbit trail, and throw the baby out with the bath water.

  11. #111

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: ES CONTROL

    Everyone we owe the O.P. a sorry. This is why the hobby is dying.
    To many of us Know it alls, run down a rabbit trail, and throw the baby out with the bath water.
    You are right. I hate for my post to be the reason for the hobby dying. Forget what I posted earlier.

    Now, I will properly repond to the original post. "No, I do not want to buy a gas trainer and radio."

    Hope that helps!


  12. #112

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Talking about rudder control is not wrong .
    I was just worried about the new guy.

  13. #113
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
    no, you just got a bad instructor.... dont give up....
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

  14. #114
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: HoundDog


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    I learned with a 2 channel glider and was self taught from that point on. I don't see any hard fast, one size fits all type rules that everybody needs to follow. Learning how to master yaw control can be done at the new pilot's leisure if he is flying a plane that is otherwise fully capable of safe flight with just pitch and roll control.
    Pitch and Roll Control are not enough to fly down a flight line with 4 or so other pilots and their spotters standing on the line ... it's just not safe.. I agree a plane is capable of controled flight with just Pitch (Eleavator) and Roll (aileron) Up in the air but not landing and take off, this needs rudder. Why else did the AMA require all jets to have Rudder(s). Not useing Rudder on landing and Take off is the reason so many wing tips get scrached to bits and there are so many close calls on the flight line. It's an ignorant or at least uninformed pilot that thinks a rudder is unesential for good fling habbits and proper safty. Heck even the Wright Brothers had a rudder Long before Alierons.
    Your post reveals that you have a pretty limited background in this sport.
    One of my first RC planes was single channel and it was never any problem to glide it home while others were standing at the pilot stations.
    Early on, my other planes were rudder / elevator with lots of dihedral in the wing to give them sporty turning ability and these planes posed no danger to any other pilots as they glided home either.
    I had to have had one of the most painless and care free RC learning experiences, because it took the hobby shop owner a 1/2 hour to "solo me" on the 2 channel glider [behind his shop] and I flew the wings off several 2-3 channel planes before moving up to a plane that needed the rudder set up [on channel 4 instead of channel 1] out of necessity. So my first "big" plane was a 4 channel Ugly Stick with a hot Fox .40 that by this time I was more than ready for, and learning the rudder by that time was simply intuitive.
    Guys who learn on SIMs and cheap park flyers have similar backgrounds to mine and they'll probably tell you the same thing...start out slow, cheap, small and light...get super proficient at that and then throw yaw control on the dinner plate with a "full house" plane after the basics have been mastered on the truly basic trainers.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  15. #115

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Soaking it all in.

    I am no way speaking negative of the instructor or field / club.

    Those guys were real nice to me and very accomplished.

    Get my .46 TT Pro run in tomorrow and going to go to a field in Tampa to reconoiter.

    If I was instructor the first things I would ask a student after formalities and introductions is:

    -  What do you know about the three axis' of flight and their respective control surfaces ?
    -  What is your vision and when was it last checked ?
    -  What is your panic tolerance and your OODA Loop processor function in stressful situations ?



  16. #116

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Please find a different instructor. Don't sell your plane. If you want to learn rudder, the instructor should be saying "great!". My guess is he might not be proficient in rudder usage. For me, there is nothing cooler than a small engine screaming at 10K. I also have and fly many park flyer foamies. It's nice to have a choice. They are different. As far as rudder usage, If I am buddy boxing someone for the first time on one of my planes, I will have them just use the left stick. I've found it's best not to add to many stick movements when someone is learning orientation. After they have that down, you can work on rudder. IMO

  17. #117

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Also, your knowledge of flight lingo is probably better than most instructors. You may have freaked him out alittle. I just read all your posts on this thread and it seems you have a good grasp of what you are trying to accomplish. If you can fly a t-28, my guess is you can fly a trainer no problem. I would just ask someone to buddy box with you the first time with the glow plane. Also have someone look the plane over for you before you fly so they can show you what to look for in regards to issues with glow planes.

  18. #118
    MetallicaJunkie's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively. Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers. No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer, look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me. Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio ?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    if your willing to give it up that quickly you might have picked the wrong part of the hobby, you wanna be a parkflyer rc pilot?
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

  19. #119
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    What is wrong with park flyers? Why look at em as just a stepping stone to 'real models?
    size has nothing to do with ability
    friends I fly with range from World/Nats/ TOC winners to guys who just like to cruise in circles.
    Most of us have been thru the 40% stuf and simply like the more convenient smaller electrics - They can be extremely good acrobats once you learn to build and set em up correctly
    The absolute best basic trainer I have seen in 40 years is the VAPOR-
    Ifyou don't understand "why" it is - you really have not done any serious experimenting in what it can do.
    Libby is still watching you

  20. #120

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    A Park flyer floats in like a feather.  No crash.
    A 60+ size will crash on landing if pilot is not not trained.

  21. #121

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    But , Yea, our OP is somewhat trained .

  22. #122
    MetallicaJunkie's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!


    ORIGINAL: rmh

    What is wrong with park flyers? Why look at em as just a stepping stone to 'real models?
    size has nothing to do with ability
    friends I fly with range from World/Nats/ TOC winners to guys who just like to cruise in circles.
    Most of us have been thru the 40% stuf and simply like the more convenient smaller electrics - They can be extremely good acrobats once you learn to build and set em up correctly
    The absolute best basic trainer I have seen in 40 years is the VAPOR-
    Ifyou don't understand ''why'' it is - you really have not done any serious experimenting in what it can do.

    been there done that myself, only if i had no choice would i fly a park flyer over a "real model" .... to each his own
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

  23. #123

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    I guess I see this a little differently than most. If you already knew how to fly then all he really needed to teach you was the operation of a glow motor. Starting, tuning, etc. and discuss the characteristics of a glow powered plane relative to electric power. Past that you just needed to be checked off that you were safe and met whatever flying criteria the club has.
    There are two sides to every story and we don't have the instructors. Did the instructor mean that he/nobody else used rudder on takeoff at that club (which I would have a hard time believing) or did he mean while in the air? That's two different things and we don't know what he meant, because we don't have his side of the story. These aren't full-scale planes. They can be flown (in the air) w/o rudder successfully and that skill picked up later. That's how I learned so I know.
    I have seen and experienced the sacrifices a club instructor makes. I will give them the benefit of the doubt every time until I have the WHOLE story.

    (Not sure why this says In response to escontrol. It is just a post.)

  24. #124
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    ORIGINAL: YearningtoFly

    Trained on the sim extensively.* Feel confident.

    Started with parkflyers.* No issues.

    Decided to get a gas trainer,* look at clubs and an instructor.

    Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me.* Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.*

    Want to buy a gas trainer and radio*?

    Park is where it is at for me.
    Many many guys in this hobby have learned how to fly without using the rudder. I would say that over 70% of guys in your average club don't use the rudder, or use very little, except on the ground to steer. Many park flyers don't even have rudders, and that is where a lot of guys are starting now. This is fine for park flyers and small aircraft, with small props. However, when a guy wants to move on to larger aircraft, with greater mass, larger engines and larger props, he soon learns why the rudder is so important. He learns the word yaw, and all that it intales. He should have learned this early in his instruction, but usually doesn't.

    The rudders on most dedicated trainers are not all that effective. No reason to ignore their existence. Instructors, do your students a great service and teach them ALL the functions of control on the trainers so equipped.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  25. #125

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    RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!

    Yearningtofly,

    I'm also just getting ready to take the plunge into learning RC flight. I definitely don't have ANY time on sims, or any planes, only some time with RC trucks(no "rudder" involved on those ).

    My only adivce is about the club since you seem to be frustrated with that part of it also. It sounds like you have alot of clubs in your area. It might be great to check all of them out and just talk to the members etc... and get a "feel" for the club and ask about instruction etc... maybe that would help you decide where to join. Iwould guess that every club will have members that are all different, but you may see more of the type of flying you are interested in at one club vs anotherIMHO. Or give the instructor a chance you talked to and learn from him and then you can always get more instruction from other pilots.

    Ialso have areas close to me to parkfly (which Iwill eventually get for extra fun), but for me joining a club is also a way to see alot of other planes, and flying styles. Not to mention the social fun of flying with other's. I personally would get bored (just me) if Icould only flew by myself all the time.

    Iwish you well in all this. Don't give up!


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