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Aileron Help!

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Old 03-09-2012, 03:34 AM
  #1
jnatale3
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Default Aileron Help!

Well, since my "resolution" this year of going from r/c ground to r/c sky, I have been learning and having fun. I have my Champ, Stinson Reliant, and Stryker Jet. The Jet I plan on using as soon as I am more comfortable with the whole r/c aviation thing. The Champ I am pretty good with. The issue is with my Stinson SR10. I have not flown the plane yet because I have not dealt with ailerons before. I bought it a week ago with the Jet because I researched them as good aircrafts and got a good deal. I have used the Real Flight before (at a friend's and I do not own it). I am not really "scared" to crash the plane, but I want to be comfortable when I fly. Is it worth me buying the Real Flight and will it help at all? My big concern is how much more to control is the aileron set up in addition to the rudder/elevator I am used to flying with the Champ?
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:40 AM
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You will find that you hardly need to touch the rudder at all. You bank the wings with the aileron and pull it through the turn with the elevator. The biggest mistake people make with ailerons is they tend to think the ailerons turn the plane (they bank the wings) and if they want to turn sharper, they add more ailerong, but forget to add more elevator - Until the plane has rolled too far - Then they panic and pull UP (which is now DOWN) and go pick up the pieces.

Any sim will be a big help.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:00 AM
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ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer

You will find that you hardly need to touch the rudder at all. You bank the wings with the aileron and pull it through the turn with the elevator. The biggest mistake people make with ailerons is they tend to think the ailerons turn the plane (they bank the wings) and if they want to turn sharper, they add more ailerong, but forget to add more elevator - Until the plane has rolled too far - Then they panic and pull UP (which is now DOWN) and go pick up the pieces.

Any sim will be a big help.
That makes sense. I guess the $150 for the SIM would pay for itself in inexperienced flight catastrophies. LOL
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:02 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

You can get Real Flight Basic for under $100
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:22 AM
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ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer

You can get Real Flight Basic for under $100
Where? That would be great. :-)
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:33 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

You can get the Clear View SIM for 40 bucks as a download. It has the Stryker model too!

http://rcflightsim.com/

Not knocking RF....it was just out of my budget range when i was in the market for a SIM. Im happy with it. Of course you will either have to buy a SIMcontroller or a cable to connect your TX to your PC. Either route will cost you about 20 bucks more.

hobbypartz.com has a SIMcontroller and the other cable to connect your particular TX to your PC can be found by Googling for about the same price.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ATVAlliance

You can get the Clear View SIM for 40 bucks as a download. It has the Stryker model too!

http://rcflightsim.com/

Not knocking RF....it was just out of my budget range when i was in the market for a SIM. Im happy with it. Of course you will either have to buy a SIM controller or a cable to connect your TX to your PC. Either route will cost you about 20 bucks more.

hobbypartz.com has a SIM controller and the other cable to connect your particular TX to your PC can be found by Googling for about the same price.
Hey man, thanks for the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ATVAlliance

You can get the Clear View SIM for 40 bucks as a download. It has the Stryker model too!

http://rcflightsim.com/

Not knocking RF....it was just out of my budget range when i was in the market for a SIM. Im happy with it. Of course you will either have to buy a SIMcontroller or a cable to connect your TX to your PC. Either route will cost you about 20 bucks more.

hobbypartz.com has a SIMcontroller and the other cable to connect your particular TX to your PC can be found by Googling for about the same price.
Hey man, thanks for the link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In order to find a PClink cable for your own TX to use with a SIM...your TX will have to be a "brand" name like Futaba/JR/Spektrum...etc... So if you have an off brand TX, it is probably best to use a dedicated SIM controller like the one that HobbyPartz sales.

http://www.hobbypartz.com/flsi2.html

You may have to look elsewhere for a SIM controller as I see the above link shows the 2 that they sale are Out of Stock. I didnt realize this when I made my first post as I just ordered one of the 20 dollar ones for a friend 2 days ago and it was in stock.

As a last resort, you can use a game pad controller like playstation or xbox...long as it has 2 gimbles and you can connect it to your PC via USB. Ive never done this but only read that others have had success with game controllers and SIMs...I just dont know which one to recommend to use.

You canalsouse the SIM with akeyboard...but that gives you absolutely no help in learning how to fly an RC plane. So you definitely need to interface some kind of controller to get your muscle memory from practicing on the SIM...which is the main point.

goodluck!
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:00 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXXSG5&P=ML]Real Flight Basic[/link]
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:18 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ATVAlliance

You can get the Clear View SIM for 40 bucks as a download. It has the Stryker model too!

http://rcflightsim.com/

Not knocking RF....it was just out of my budget range when i was in the market for a SIM. Im happy with it. Of course you will either have to buy a SIMcontroller or a cable to connect your TX to your PC. Either route will cost you about 20 bucks more.

hobbypartz.com has a SIMcontroller and the other cable to connect your particular TX to your PC can be found by Googling for about the same price.
I'll second this one. Again I am not knocking RealFlight it is an excellent Sim but if you are wanting to learn basic controls and use of them ClearView will more than do the job for you. It has photo scenery etc.

As with many of the Sims if you have the right adaptor you can link your Tx to your PC and fly with your own Tx.


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Old 03-09-2012, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

All I have now is my Spektrum DX6i. I need the cable for the ClearView. Can I get the cable from a LHS? Also, I have a laptop i want to use it with. Will that work? DOes it plug in the USB?
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

Well, since my ''resolution'' this year of going from r/c ground to r/c sky, I have been learning and having fun. I have my Champ, Stinson Reliant, and Stryker Jet. The Jet I plan on using as soon as I am more comfortable with the whole r/c aviation thing. The Champ I am pretty good with. The issue is with my Stinson SR10. I have not flown the plane yet because I have not dealt with ailerons before. I bought it a week ago with the Jet because I researched them as good aircrafts and got a good deal. I have used the Real Flight before (at a friend's and I do not own it). I am not really ''scared'' to crash the plane, but I want to be comfortable when I fly. Is it worth me buying the Real Flight and will it help at all? My big concern is how much more to control is the aileron set up in addition to the rudder/elevator I am used to flying with the Champ?
Just my take on this as I'm not really that familiar with the plane you're talking about to begin with.

The ailerons will be a little adjustment for you but not that bad. I started with a 3 channel and the transition isn't that painful. You'll probably enjoy it more anyway.

As for the sim, it is a good tool. That's where it ends. There is no substitute for an instructor in my opinion. If you have any reservation about going from 3 channel to 4 channel, find someone to work with you until you are comfortable.

You're mileage may vary.........
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

All I have now is my Spektrum DX6i. I need the cable for the ClearView. Can I get the cable from a LHS? Also, I have a laptop i want to use it with. Will that work? DOes it plug in the USB?
Here is the cable you need then. I dont know if this is a reputable source as I just googled the term "Spektrum USBSIMcable" and this was one of the first links google gave me.

http://store.rcsupersales.net/servle...OR-CORD/Detail

So, if anyone has anything bad to say about rcsupersales.net ...Im sure you can find the same/similar cable from a better source.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:56 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

The ClearView has "free version" which I just downloaded on my laptop. Obviously very limited pickings for the planes and locations, etc. However, just using keyboard controls it is helping me get used to how the ailerons "bank" the plane. It is actually a good little tool for me. I just needed to try the concepts for myself and this little version has it LOL.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ATVAlliance


Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

All I have now is my Spektrum DX6i. I need the cable for the ClearView. Can I get the cable from a LHS? Also, I have a laptop i want to use it with. Will that work? DOes it plug in the USB?
Here is the cable you need then. I dont know if this is a reputable source as I just googled the term ''Spektrum USB SIM cable'' and this was one of the first links google gave me.

http://store.rcsupersales.net/servle...OR-CORD/Detail

So, if anyone has anything bad to say about rcsupersales.net ...Im sure you can find the same/similar cable from a better source.
Cool, thanks!!!
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:36 AM
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Default RE: Aileron Help!

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

Well, since my ''resolution'' this year of going from r/c ground to r/c sky, I have been learning and having fun. I have my Champ, Stinson Reliant, and Stryker Jet. The Jet I plan on using as soon as I am more comfortable with the whole r/c aviation thing. The Champ I am pretty good with. The issue is with my Stinson SR10. I have not flown the plane yet because I have not dealt with ailerons before. //SNIP//
My big concern is how much more to control is the aileron set up in addition to the rudder/elevator I am used to flying with the Champ?

Minnflyer gave you very good advice. Since I know NOT your age and if you are driving a car yet, this may not apply, however it is one informational step I use to teach students as it provides a basic understanding between a KNOWN and an UNKNOWN'

Automobile, bicycle, etc: As you drive you apply pressure to the steering wheel/bars etc. and adjust until you complete the change in direction that you desire. With an airplane you DO NOT use that technique.
As Minnflyer pointed out there is more to it.

1. Ailerons ROLL the aircraft. Such roll continues as long as the aileron pressure (AP) exists. Things happen!!!
2. Rudder YAWS the aircraft, which will result in a roll, especially with high wing, and dihedral which assists that yaw to become roll. (Aerodynamics of such omitted here.) You just need to know what is happening.

3. Using aileron, you ROLL the aircraft until the desired angle of bank is established. Given that no elevator is applied, the vertical lift vector is tilted thus the aircraft is losing altitude. If it loses enough altitude it will contact the earth and in many many attempts I have yet to move the earth out of the way.

4. To extend the lift factor we increase the elevator-up pressure to hold an increased angle-of-attack which has to be maintained during the turn, BUT the aileron is NOT maintained.

In your car you have to hold the turn with steering wheel movement pressure, to mainturn your car turn. With an airplane for a level turn, you roll with aileron pressure and remove AP at the desired angle of bank. Once the roll starts, you need elevator increasing until you reach the desired bank angle and then MAINTAIN that elevator pressure. You will hear lots of stuff about 60 degrees Bank angle requiring 2 "Gs". That is true for a LEVEL 60 Degree bank turn. In maneuvering flight the airplane knows not what the bank angle is, nor the ATTITUDE of the airplane nor does it care. It follows either YOUR commands or it follows the commands of gravity, existing applied control pressures, and speed or lack thereof.
Your choice!

Now you will find yourself making many slight changes in the pressure and non presure applications. While you will develop such due to the stick feel and airplane position, we don't really have the "G" feelings of the real machine. Yet, a close second of feel, eye coordination and knowledge of basics will come fairly rapidly to you. As you do so, you will develop everything you need to know.

Ailerons beat rudder only all to heck. Now one other hint: If your high wing aileron controlled machine does NOT have a "washout" built in ( eyeball the trailing edge from the rear vice the leading edge and check for a slight UP twist. ) just roll your ailerons about 2-3 degrees up. It works much better as it decreases adverse yaw a whole lot.

Best of Luck and Knowledge to you.


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Old 03-09-2012, 10:13 AM
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What ever happened to getting an instructor? Are people that proud/arrogant still ?

"Pride goeth before a fall."

I'd rather let my hotshoe pal test-hop my latest speed ship, than go out 30 seconds after launch to pick up the remains.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: eddieC


What ever happened to getting an instructor? Are people that proud/arrogant still ?

''Pride goeth before a fall.''

I'd rather let my hotshoe pal test-hop my latest speed ship, than go out 30 seconds after launch to pick up the remains.
Welcome to the new RC PLANE hobby. People aren't arrogant, nor do I think they have too much pride. The manufacturers make planes that people
can train themselves to fly, and that is what people are doing. I look at it as a service to our hobby, some of these guys are going to want to move
up to larger aircraft, and they will probably join clubs, and spend money with RC companies, which keeps them in business, and keeps our
hobby alive. A WIN WIN situation.

Jnatale, I have Clearview and Realflight. I have been using the CV more cause it's new. but but any Sim will help you learn, and help to build
the muscle memory needed for flying.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:46 AM
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This person is a troll, nothing more and nothing less.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

Well, since my ''resolution'' this year of going from r/c ground to r/c sky, I have been learning and having fun. I have my Champ, Stinson Reliant, and Stryker Jet. The Jet I plan on using as soon as I am more comfortable with the whole r/c aviation thing. The Champ I am pretty good with. The issue is with my Stinson SR10. I have not flown the plane yet because I have not dealt with ailerons before. //SNIP//
My big concern is how much more to control is the aileron set up in addition to the rudder/elevator I am used to flying with the Champ?

Minnflyer gave you very good advice. Since I know NOT your age and if you are driving a car yet, this may not apply, however it is one informational step I use to teach students as it provides a basic understanding between a KNOWN and an UNKNOWN'

Automobile, bicycle, etc: As you drive you apply pressure to the steering wheel/bars etc. and adjust until you complete the change in direction that you desire. With an airplane you DO NOT use that technique.
As Minnflyer pointed out there is more to it.

1. Ailerons ROLL the aircraft. Such roll continues as long as the aileron pressure (AP) exists. Things happen!!!
2. Rudder YAWS the aircraft, which will result in a roll, especially with high wing, and dihedral which assists that yaw to become roll. (Aerodynamics of such omitted here.) You just need to know what is happening.

3. Using aileron, you ROLL the aircraft until the desired angle of bank is established. Given that no elevator is applied, the vertical lift vector is tilted thus the aircraft is losing altitude. If it loses enough altitude it will contact the earth and in many many attempts I have yet to move the earth out of the way.

4. To extend the lift factor we increase the elevator-up pressure to hold an increased angle-of-attack which has to be maintained during the turn, BUT the aileron is NOT maintained.

In your car you have to hold the turn with steering wheel movement pressure, to mainturn your car turn. With an airplane for a level turn, you roll with aileron pressure and remove AP at the desired angle of bank. Once the roll starts, you need elevator increasing until you reach the desired bank angle and then MAINTAIN that elevator pressure. You will hear lots of stuff about 60 degrees Bank angle requiring 2 ''Gs''. That is true for a LEVEL 60 Degree bank turn. In maneuvering flight the airplane knows not what the bank angle is, nor the ATTITUDE of the airplane nor does it care. It follows either YOUR commands or it follows the commands of gravity, existing applied control pressures, and speed or lack thereof.
Your choice!

Now you will find yourself making many slight changes in the pressure and non presure applications. While you will develop such due to the stick feel and airplane position, we don't really have the ''G'' feelings of the real machine. Yet, a close second of feel, eye coordination and knowledge of basics will come fairly rapidly to you. As you do so, you will develop everything you need to know.

Ailerons beat rudder only all to heck. Now one other hint: If your high wing aileron controlled machine does NOT have a ''washout'' built in ( eyeball the trailing edge from the rear vice the leading edge and check for a slight UP twist. ) just roll your ailerons about 2-3 degrees up. It works much better as it decreases adverse yaw a whole lot.

Best of Luck and Knowledge to you.


WOW! I will print off these notes. :-) BTW I am 28. ;-)
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Welcome to the new RC PLANE hobby.
Indeed!  'I can do it cause the web/video/box says so.'

You can pay for their 2nd/3rd/4th plane while that learning curve takes (or doesn't). 
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: flycatch

This person is a troll, nothing more and nothing less.
Who?
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:41 PM
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I have a question about ailerons. Why does the F9F-8 Cougar only have an aileron on the port wing?
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:55 PM
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Hi,
I am still a relitive beginner but my very first plane was a pushmotor 4 ch glider/plane, it was the dynam hawksky and it taught me how to use ailerons and it is pretty much impossible to roll and was so durable that even the most serious crashes have never really damaged it beyond easy repair, i recomend something like that. availibe from nitroplanes, it is very cheap but good quality.
http://www.nitroplanes.com/60a-dy892...y-rtf-24g.html
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: jnatale3

Well, since my ''resolution'' this year of going from r/c ground to r/c sky, I have been learning and having fun. I have my Champ, Stinson Reliant, and Stryker Jet. The Jet I plan on using as soon as I am more comfortable with the whole r/c aviation thing. The Champ I am pretty good with. The issue is with my Stinson SR10. I have not flown the plane yet because I have not dealt with ailerons before. I bought it a week ago with the Jet because I researched them as good aircrafts and got a good deal. I have used the Real Flight before (at a friend's and I do not own it). I am not really ''scared'' to crash the plane, but I want to be comfortable when I fly. Is it worth me buying the Real Flight and will it help at all? My big concern is how much more to control is the aileron set up in addition to the rudder/elevator I am used to flying with the Champ?
You sound like you're doing great. I got all worked up when going from 3 to 4 channel and was a bit hesitant to use ailerons. The flylite I was used to nose-dived into the turns quite a bit though so I was already used to using some up elevator (and some power) to keep the nose up. The transition was seamless for me. I also bought RF6 and a few expansion packs and don't regret it. I hate the SIM and am bored with it still , but must use it for practise.

ps. I had a few guys come over to do some repairs on a truck I gave to the son and as soon as they saw all my planes they wanted to learn how to fly. I let them both use the SIM and think they will order one. Explaining the difference between the 3 channel trainer and the 4 channel tuns was easy. I first explained a loop , then told them to turn the loop sideways. He got it immediately. It was the only thing I could think of.
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