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  1. #26

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Give me a break. When logic fails, the ignorant resort to insults. Elitism pure and simple. Some people just can't take the fact that they are obsolete. Nuff said.

  2. #27
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    This is my favorite place on RCU. The beginners. This is the place that makes these forums worth while. Teaching or learning. Out at our field or some field in ANY PLACE USA. I don't seem to find much difference. To me the model aviation field has always been a place to go share my love for aviation. A place to relax and put the rat race out of my mind. Sharing the hobby/sport has been a labor of love for me. This is how we are currently doing things. We have two intro-pilots. They do just that, introduce folks to the hobby. Then there is my flying buddy and I. We will help any AMA member that may need or want our help. There is two of us for several reasons. Ronnie can get along with some folks and not others. I can get along with some he just can't adjust to. It is strange how that works. The younger kids really like Ronnie. The older kids take to me. One of the things we try to keep in mind is it takes all kinds. We both try our best with the older guys or those that have a problem learning. The OP ask how to handle the guys with flawed planes? We have our system and I promise it has flaws, but we do the very best we can.
    I would like to say for the record. All you people that do your best to give the best advice you can. THANKS!

  3. #28

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Well, there is an adage which goes along the lines of, "The aeroplane doesn't care what Ratings you have."


    I'm one of those who is "self-taught" (or should I say self-learnt? ... I'm confused, now) and it's a stoney path to tread, there's no doubt. I got a lot of help from a chap called Langesweische, though. It might sound incredible, but, for the first year of my model flying, I wasn't even aware that model clubs existed. How could anyone so dumb possibly learn to fly? I never did get any instruction in the world of model aviation.

    That's 27 years ago ... and a lot of flying.

    But, just yesterday, I was out with a new model and I had to spend a full hour, alone in the circuit, just getting to grips with its idiosyncracies. Did some shocking landings, too, before I got on top of it. It did make me work hard. So, I guess I'm still very much a "learner".



    When I first got into model flying and was driving to the flying field, I would get a real physical tingly buzz as planes came into view ... or as the sound of engines drifted in. Even the smell of exhaust would do it for me. And I still get that buzz; like butterflies in the tummy.

    Is it just me?


    Oh God, I hope there aren't dozens of people sitting at their computers and thinking, "Weird guy."

  4. #29

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    bogbeagle,
    Not weird. Dad used to drop me off at the end of the airport runway so I could watch planes take off or land. Try that now and you go to jail. My first airplane ride was in a 4 engined Convair something or other. Never stop learning.
    Edwin

  5. #30

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    When you have read back through to the original post, you'll remember that he's talking about people that are too stupid to realise how dumb they are, and to arrogant to accept sound advice from sombody who's "been there done that".

    There's a big difference between that kind of person and sombody who's intelligent, understands the risks but still wants to go about it their way.

    A club out in the middle of nowhere could be much more relaxed about pilot proficiency than a club flying within much tighter airspace boundaries so there's no real one attitude fits all in this sport.

  6. #31

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    one should adhere to Darwin's therory  "  Only the fit survive"  all others perish at some point.. or in our hobby " crash and burn"

  7. #32

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    it doesn't really matter to me whether you want to join a club or learn by yourself. all I ask, and I think what the op may be asking is, IF you go to a club, show them respect and obey their rules.
    Ray

  8. #33

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Chucksolo69
    You sound likethe pot calling the kettle black.

  9. #34

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Oh, but I am so torn when I think about this thread. 
     I am in my second year of the wonderful world of r/c aircraft flight. I, as many others built the "stick and paper" free-flight kits when I was younger, flew a little control line, but never could afford r/c till now. It seems competition in the manufacturing industry has lowered the prices of most everything needed to fly. Some people would say my 9ch tx, and the rx's that bind are unworthy in some fashion or form, yet I have had no problems of any kind with my equipment.I have noticed some of the name brand equipment has problems. Money does not equate to safety. 
     I learned to fly with a Slo-Stik, 3 channel airplane. Inexpensive?yes. Invaluable? ABSOLUTELY!!! I learned 3 channel flight, and did't go broke doing it. Then, I took the same aircraft, and added ailerons. I learned even more. I now own 10 otheraircraft, both elecric, and nitro. I am a member of the AMA. I am not currently a club member, but thinking very much about joining after flying by invitation at a local club field. I would not have been invited were I not able to prove myself competent at the public field I fly at.
     But we, at the public field don't look down on the guys that belong to clubs, even though they have a place to fly within a few miles. We accept all Pilots, new and seasoned. We help as much as we can. We mourn the loss of every aircraft, regardless of the method of flight. We are self-regulating, checking out the newcomers,inquiring about AMA membership, and pointing out the signs that show even the public field requires it.I have had many mentors, alot of study, and sim time, and hope all enjoy the hobby as much as I do!! Happy Landings!!!

  10. #35
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    I have known folks who have been driving cars for 40 years and are STILL horrible drivers.They wander side-to-side and are just not smooth or comfortable behind the wheel. And thenthere are drivers who seem towear the car. Which would you have rather tried to teach initially? Or which would do better on their own early on?

    There is a quality called "spatial awareness" that some folks just lack. I'm sure there are "naturals" who take to R/C flying because they have great reflexes, depth perception and the ballistic computer in their brain embraces R/C quickly. But then there are the rest - who will benefit greatly from some instruction - initial trimming of the model - help with the pre-flight and either engine tuning or motor set-up and battery information. Some skills can be developed, and early success with an instructor certainly tips the balance in the favor of not developing bad habits or wasting time trying to learn what can be quickly taught.
    Charlie P. (NY) "Gravity is weak but persistant".

    AMA 747089/IMAA 30723

  11. #36
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Hey if there are some natural born geniuses that can self learn, good for them. The rest of the human race needs instructors.[X(]
    Keep your wings level
    Club Saito Member #693

  12. #37

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


    ORIGINAL: JohnGilmore

    Em, BS - MS- PhD - doesn't that mean bull sh**, more sh** and piled higher and deeper ...

    I share this with the utmost respect for our academics ...


    do335a - nicely stated.
    Well, everything was a civil discussion until this guy jumped in with this statement. Nobody likes being insulted or talked down to.All Iam trying to say is that for some, instruction is not necessary or necessarily wanted. That's all.

  13. #38

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Byrne1157 has gone the EXACT same route as I have. Learn on a 3 channel and work your way up slowly with sim time and practical flying. I see nothing wrong with that. If you read my other posts in other forums, I wholeheartedly support those who want to join a club and the AMA. I plan on joining the AMA next week. But I personally don't want to join a club. I am doing just fine by myself and with my more experienced buddies. And yes, in the few months I have been flying with them, they have taught me loads.

  14. #39

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


    ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

    So if I am reading your post correctly, anyone who wants to buy a ''cheap'' foamie plane and get into the park flyer side of the hobby has no business entering it. Seems to me his ONLY mistake was showing up at your club ''ninvited'' I regularly fly with a bunch of guys who have been flying for years and have NEVER had instruction or been in a club and I can tellΒ*you, they fly pretty darn well. Not just ''cheap'' foamies either.Β*Does that mean they enjoy the activity of flying their planes any less?Β*Have you ever considered that there ARE people out there that don't NEED or WANT instruction. Some people don't want to compete or fly giant scale RC aircraft. They want to take their 3, 4, 5 and 6 channel aircraft and just have fun doing it without having to wait in line hours and hours to do so. There are those who are inept in any hobby, be it cars, trucks, helis or airplanes I give you that, but why talk down about those that don't necessarily see eye to eye with your beliefs? I fly foamies and got into the hobby about 3 months ago. I have crashed one plane on it's maiden flight and very slightly, hardly any damage done but a wrinkle in the airplane nose; no crashes since then in a lot of flights.Β* I thank my RealFligh 6 sim for that. Yes I am self taught, so what? Do I want to buddy box with an instructor, no, do I want to join a club, no, do I want to join the AMA? Yes, I probably will just like I am a member of the NRA because I like to shoot. I have read many posts that claim that you can show up to a club and everyone there will gladly help you withΒ* a big smile on their face, and then you go and make the statement about this one person showing up ''uninvited.'' That kind sir, is EXACTLY why I don't want to join a club..............I can do without the elitism in a hobby I really enjoy.
    Lots of misunderstanding in this post, so I'll try to clear up my position.

    I don't have a problem with someone doing the hobby differently than me, including low end foamy planes. I do have a problem with guys putting planes in the air that aren't reliable as the extra cheap end of the hobby tends to be. I also have a problem with people failing and quitting because they tried to fly junk.

    On the club field: The fellow tried to fly at our field when nobody was around and didn't have AMA. There are signs clearly posted that prohibit that, partly because our insurance requires that pilots be current AMA members (not to mention our arrangement with the Corps of Engineers to use the land) and also partly because our club has spent 55k in the last 3 years on this facility. I pay my part, so everyone else should too.

    On waiting in line: On very busy days I've had to wait as much as 10 minutes in line to fly. But that's rare.

    On instruction: These two guys I'm talking about are not responsible, naturally talented guys. They are goobers who have silly ideas about how the hobby is going to work that my experience says simple cannot work. I don't want to judge them or dissuade them. I want to help them by redirecting their ideas to something more viable like not starting with an EDF jet from Banana Hobby as one's first plane.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  15. #40

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    And, after having read the whole thread (wow!) I do want to clear up that this is not a "club or outlaw" or "instructor or self taught" thread. This is about dealing with guys who have completely unrealistic ideas about how RC flight works and plan to do something that is 99% likely to result in a destroyed airplane at the very least. Yes, there is the element to the one jerk who thinks that he's entitled to a free place to fly and free instruction (probably free help repairing too) but mostly I'm curious on how, as a representative of the hobby, to handle guys that have the wrong idea about what they should do.

    Update: I talked to jerk guy again today. He's already traded off that Cessna for another EDF, a Banana Hobbies F16. He wants to swap it with me for a cheap CP helicopter which he'll destroy in about 5 seconds. I kinda want the F16, so I'm wondering how forward I should be about his plan to self teach heli flying? I did tell him what my experience was and did explain that it's a whole 'nother ballgame compared to his coaxial which he, of course, flies extremely well. I find this guy unlikable enough that I actually want to set him up to fail. Is that un-Christian of me?
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  16. #41
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Had to laugh a little there Jester... He would likely destroy either model so you may as well save the one you like

    Stand back and watch the guy. ensure he is endagering no more than his own wallet. If he has the financial resources he will eventually learn. We all pay for our educations, some just have to pay more than others.
    He who dies with the most toys wins!

  17. #42

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Jester, you are absolutely right. Guys like that are hopeless. I guess I did sort of misunderstand your intent. I have seen  guys like this in every aspect of each hobby I participate in. There is the guy who has never played a guitar before and wants to get a 2K buck Les Paul because he is mistakenly thinking he will learn faster on it and join our band. Another is the noob guy at our local shooting range who buys a 4K buck Les Baer pistol because he thinks it will make him shoot better. I know a guy who had a friend build him a Slow Stick to get into the hobby and is constantly talking about flying but he never does. I took him to our flying field a couple of weeks ago and after loading up all our stuff, we get to the field and he just happened to forget his TX.....sheesh. Same thing. I gotcha, sorry for starting the controversy. It's all good.

  18. #43
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    G'day

    A bloke turned up at our club about 18 months ago. He was in his mid sixties and keen as all mustard. He wanted to build a plane and learn to fly so I sold him a three channel trainer kit I had, suggested some other gear which he bought. In the meantime I took him out to our field and started to teach him using my similar trainer. Initially he was totally hopeless but eventually he started (with intense lessons) to get the plot. He built the trainer and before long we were using his plane with a buddy box system. His building of the trainer was basically OK but it was a bit rough and needed some tidying up before it could fly.

    He was slow to learn, as I expected, but he was soon keen to build something else. He decided it had to be a four engined WWII bomber. No amount of talking could persuade him to build some more simple kits first, it was going to be a four engined bomber or nothing. This cost him a fortune as most of it was imported.

    Meanwhile we kept on the lessons and after about 12 months he did manage to fly solo. His flying was OK - mostly - but sometimes he would loose the plot but the stable trainer generally saved him even when he totally lost it and it flew away and landed its self when he ventured out by himself.

    He eventually finished the bomber. It is very heavy and has a number of basic faults. I would not dare to try to fly it as I am pretty sure it will come apart in the air. There was no spar in the horizontal stabilizer at all! I did try to keep him on the right track but ultimately, he is responsible for his own actions though I would never allow this plane to be flown at our club in its present condition. It is just not airworthy.

    I am prepared to help anyone who asks me but there are some people who simply cannot be helped.

    Mike in Oz
    \"I just had no control. Must be the radio.\" Club Saito #597 Kadet Brotherhood #66

  19. #44

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    I taught my self to fly with an E-Flight apprentice. I took it out of the box assembled charged and flew. Landed with no issues
    I had many good flights with few real errors, no major crashes. I moved to a sig trainer with 40 super tiger. I again had no issues.
    A month or so later I bought a used worlds model p-47 with an os 90 4stroke. The air frame was 40 sized
    So way overpowered needless to say I had great difficulty handling it after take off and ended up nose diving int the ground because I
    Lost orientation. I then bought the hanger 9 p-51 PTA which I must say was an excellent move as it allowed me to move up slowly. It is truly an awesome plane which I can fly proficiently. All this being said I learned without aid of a club because I was intimidated by them. My LHS is huge and the airplane Guys do not seem to have time for a beginner. They are the ones out at the local club so of course I did not want to go out there.

    I bought all of my equipment through this LHS except for the P-47 so I spent plenty of money I would think they would have jumped at the chance to help me and expand there customer base that is just not true. So when you guys that have been flying forever see some one new you should make a real point to welcome them because the younger generation is what will keep this hobby alive. Realise that some people can learn unconventionally. 

  20. #45

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    I am self-taught...for about 35 years now....still a lousy pilot but am smart enough to have someone teach me the proper way to control an aircraft now.
    It's nice to have someone with patience help an old man out in this world.
    I look forward to each flight now.....I can take off and fly well, but it's ligning up on that runway and not making 3 bounces each time I land.
    Lining up is the hardest part.

  21. #46
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


    ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69

    I plan on joining the AMA next week. But I personally don't want to join a club. I am doing just fine by myself and with my moreexperienced buddies. And yes, in the few months I have been flying with them, they have taught me loads.
    But, but, I think if you are flying at a field with other more experienced buddies, THAT is a club. Whether is organized or not it is the same principle.

    Keep your wings level
    Club Saito Member #693

  22. #47

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    Strategy,
    That big club in your area has some good people in it. I know of one of them that used to be an instructor and I'm sure they have a regular training program. I find it disturbing that you couldnt get anybody to train you. Most new people are generally intimidated when just showing up at the field. Ya just gotta ask and someone will generally point you to the instructor or how to get in touch with them.
    Edwin

  23. #48
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


    ORIGINAL: do335a

    The reason is quite simple. It is impossible to teach yourself anything. You may learn by yourself, but you don't teach yourself.

    In order to teach, it is necessay that the teacher know more than the student and it's impossible when you are the student to know more than you know. The teacher is way ahead of you and already knows what you are trying to learn.

    As for me, being the ignoramous that I was,I actually attended school and even paid tuition. Never did know everything on my own and realized that there were a lot of much smarter people than me who had valuable info to pass on and brind to my atttention, as well as the ability to explain and present things in different ways to help my learning.

    You can't do any of that for yourself. You are simply a learner, not a teacher. Self-taught does not exist.
    I'm pretty sure if I still smoked weed I would have to go light one up, come back and read this. I'll bet it would be really deep.
    For a kit you are, and to a kit you shall return.

  24. #49

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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

    I have the utmost respect for those who take their time to teach. I'm not one of our club instructors, but I always give the same advise I was given. I tell every new prospect to find the type of power they prefer, get a simulator and a dedicated trainer, gets lots of stick time and DO NOT get ahead of themselves. We had a new fellow this year, you know the ones...older, former pilot, won't even look at an Alpha or an Avistar. Keeps talking about warbirds, and soon shows up with one. Well suffice to say...the warbird thing didn't really work out.Then we have a local physician who finds a nice used Hobbystar 60, he listens to our best instructor (my former instructor) andrealizes he's giving the same advise I'm givinghim. He's solo inabout 3 weeks, hecomes out and practices take-off and landings andwill succeed in the hobby.I'd say it's the same everywhere. Hang in there for the sake of the ones who will succeed.

  25. #50
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    RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    And, after having read the whole thread (wow!) I do want to clear up that this is not a ''club or outlaw'' or ''instructor or self taught'' thread. This is about dealing with guys who have completely unrealistic ideas about how RC flight works and plan to do something that is 99% likely to result in a destroyed airplane at the very least. Yes, there is the element to the one jerk who thinks that he's entitled to a free place to fly and free instruction (probably free help repairing too) but mostly I'm curious on how, as a representative of the hobby, to handle guys that have the wrong idea about what they should do.

    Update: I talked to jerk guy again today. He's already traded off that Cessna for another EDF, a Banana Hobbies F16. He wants to swap it with me for a cheap CP helicopter which he'll destroy in about 5 seconds. I kinda want the F16, so I'm wondering how forward I should be about his plan to self teach heli flying? I did tell him what my experience was and did explain that it's a whole 'nother ballgame compared to his coaxial which he, of course, flies extremely well. I find this guy unlikable enough that I actually want to set him up to fail. Is that un-Christian of me?
    Boy, Jester, you said a lot there. First of all, I was debating locking it this thread down for a while there because it seemed to be going in a rather hateful direction, but, reluctantly decided to just watch things to see how it developed. Fortunately, clearer heads prevailed and it began to go back in the right direction, and as you said, was going back to the original topic. Good stuff.

    Wow.. about being Christian of you, well, I do think we all fall into that situation and do what we can to try to help out, but there is always someone out there that knows more than you or I do and is ready to tell you so. In that case, well, it may be the best idea to just let the guy fall back into his own crap and then figure out where the smell is coming from all by himself. Mainly because, as I said, they do know more than you do... We've all seen them... [&o] .

    I'll step back now and continue watching.

    CGr.
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!


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