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using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Old 01-13-2013, 05:18 AM
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Popriv
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Default using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I'm running an older hobbyco deluxe 12v starter with a Zippy, 3s, 2650 Lipo.
Worked fine till the weather got colder, now it wont turn over my .40 - .60 glow engines

would putting 2 batteries in series burn out the starter? ( 22.2 volts in a 12 volt starter )
would it give the starter more kick?

Also, can the "brushes" in the starter be replaced?
I have another starter that stopped working and when I took it apart the brushes fell out, the wires connecting the( worn ) brushes broke.

Thanks

Steve
Old 01-13-2013, 05:56 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I have a Hangar 9 heavy duty starter on a 4S 3200 mAh LiPo, and this setup ROCKS! It'll turn over my 30cc gas engines with no effort at all.

I also bought a $5 project box at my local Radio Shack and mounted that to the bottom of the starter to house the 4S LiPo. I just packed a little foam wrap around the battery inside the project box, to protect the battery in case the starter was dropped.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:29 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

It may or may not burn up the motor. It depends on how the motors are wired (if they can take the 6s) Maybe they can take 4s like barbers? It WILL give the starter more kick and rpm. Again the motors have to be able to take this whopping increase in power. If it's a "12 v" starter than it might be able to do 4s.

This could also be your battery pack or a connection too. Some measurements would be in order to narrow the trouble down. If it is a sealed can motor then it's probably not possible or feasible to acquire or replace the brushes. You surely can put a bigger motor in it though. If you selected a slower/bigger one then it may take advantage of the higher voltage and make a "real" starter out of it.

ps. One quick test you can do is to parallel another 3s pack temporarily to see if it's the battery's fault. Or perhaps measure the volt/current on the set-up.
Old 01-13-2013, 07:51 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I have a dynatron with a 6 cell lipo. Will take the lug nuts off your truck.
Old 01-13-2013, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Tower doesn't list brushes for their present 12V starter. That's bad news for your older one. Finding replacement brushes is going to be difficult.

No real way to tell for sure if it'll take higher voltage other than trying it. You might try a 4 cell LiPo first if you decide that higher voltage is worth trying.

I have replaced the brushes in a Tower starter many, many years ago. I was surprised they don't list them now.
Old 01-13-2013, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I'm just making an educated guess here, but I would think that the brushes from a Hobbico starter of similar size would work as well.
Old 01-13-2013, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I had gotten my brushes from my local small town hardware store and yes you can replace them. You can use high voltage with your starter but don't ever just keep rolling an engine over if it won't start or you will over heat it. I use a Harbor freight 18 volt battery on my old starter and with a full charge it rolls over the DLE 30s. John Buckner once gave us the part number of this battery from HF and for $15.00 I got the battery and a quick charger. Pretty good deal.
Old 01-13-2013, 01:17 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Yeah.. as long as you have the "C" rating to handle the current draw, it doesn't matter if it's lead acid, NiMh, LiFePO4, or LiPo. It will do the trick.

CGr.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:19 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

ORIGINAL: Popriv

I'm running an older hobbyco deluxe 12v starter with a Zippy, 3s, 2650 Lipo.
Worked fine till the weather got colder, now it wont turn over my .40 - .60 glow engines
Have you load tested your battery pack?

It should turn over a .60 just fine.

Remember the torque available is directly proportional to the lever moment...

That means a larger driver cone will grip the outer part of the spinner, imparting more leverage.

I always use the larger driver cones available from Tower, for anything over a .50 size engine.

Also could it be that your ENGINE is the problem?

If it's been sitting cold for a while, the engine may be much harder to start.


ORIGINAL: Popriv

would putting 2 batteries in series burn out the starter? ( 22.2 volts in a 12 volt starter )
would it give the starter more kick?
I've done it and it works fine... however here is a caveat.

The reason it works fine is that there is normally no load on the motor, so the wires never have a chance to heat up.

At the higher voltage heat builds up more quickly, so while you'll get extra "uumph" out of the motor, you must be VERY sure that you use this force very sparingly.

e.g. don't go trying to start a brand new 100cc engine with that, though you should be fine with 50cc engines...

I've also used 14.8v LiPo packs that are past their prime, and this combo works great for engines shy of 50cc.

Old 01-16-2013, 11:35 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I tried running two 3 cell lipos on my dynatron but went back to a single 3cell after breaking the firewall on several planes from the higher torque and speed. With the 3cell I can start an OS 120AX .
Old 01-16-2013, 07:23 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

You could put a car tire between the starter and the cone and you will not get any more torque out of the starter.

ORIGINAL: opjose

ORIGINAL: Popriv

I'm running an older hobbyco deluxe 12v starter with a Zippy, 3s, 2650 Lipo.
Worked fine till the weather got colder, now it wont turn over my .40 - .60 glow engines
Have you load tested your battery pack?

It should turn over a .60 just fine.

Remember the torque available is directly proportional to the lever moment...

That means a larger driver cone will grip the outer part of the spinner, imparting more leverage.

I always use the larger driver cones available from Tower, for anything over a .50 size engine.

Also could it be that your ENGINE is the problem?

If it's been sitting cold for a while, the engine may be much harder to start.


ORIGINAL: Popriv

would putting 2 batteries in series burn out the starter? ( 22.2 volts in a 12 volt starter )
would it give the starter more kick?
I've done it and it works fine... however here is a caveat.

The reason it works fine is that there is normally no load on the motor, so the wires never have a chance to heat up.

At the higher voltage heat builds up more quickly, so while you'll get extra "uumph" out of the motor, you must be VERY sure that you use this force very sparingly.

e.g. don't go trying to start a brand new 100cc engine with that, though you should be fine with 50cc engines...

I've also used 14.8v LiPo packs that are past their prime, and this combo works great for engines shy of 50cc.

Old 01-16-2013, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

ORIGINAL: Popriv

would putting 2 batteries in series burn out the starter? ( 22.2 volts in a 12 volt starter )
would it give the starter more kick?

Once you get past around 18/20 volts with the common cheaper 12 rated starters and applying good loads from a recalcitant larger engine and yes on cold days You will reach a point where they start failing and its not in the way you might expect in the windings or such.

What seems to be the first point of failure when such loads are applied and that type of current is demanded on the cheaper starters, it is the switch that will fail Especially the type that are made with that tiny contact point on the spring plates. Some have a larger diameter point set on the plates and these fair better.

Another switch plate set I just discoverd has no points at all and one of the spring plates is punched to form a long tang of the plate itself that serves as the switch contact. I am now just experimenting with this type and like it so far.

Anyway what happens when to much current is demanded of that tiny contact point on many of the switchs it will weld itself together and the motor will not shut off.

John

Oh and the dynatron starter mentioned earlier is of course rated at 24 volts so not much help for Popriv's question about his inexpensive 12 volt unit.
Old 01-17-2013, 05:24 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

You are right John on the dynatron rated at 24v. But even with the 22v lipo it welded the contact points and I had to buy the heavy duty contact points. Sullivan said the points were not under warranty, even with it being rated at 24v. The puppy does have a lot of kick to it.
Old 01-17-2013, 06:54 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Wow now thats interesting Gene I was not aware that the Dynatrons had two different sets of switch points. I do love my Dynatrons though and I do beleve they are the most powerfull motor units commercially avalible intended for our use. I now have two the home converted geared and a single direct drive.

Recently added the direct drive and pretty much for a single airplane. That is a forty year old oldtimer giant called a Buckineer and around 120 inchs plus. The engine is also a rather vintage Kalt that is a cranky starter. What works best with that engine is cranking very fast but it also take a powerfull starter that the light weights just won't handle. There also is no spinner so the Dynatron being used direct drive with a standard small cone reversed and running on a short cord just like my geared Dynatron on a Black and Decker 24 volt drill battery.

That has been just the ticket for that airplane. Of course the down side of the Dynatrons is their weight and perhaps that makes them not so desirable for the smaller stuff and not very good candidates for a mounted battery and starter combo just because of the weight.

Just goes to show when it comes to starters there really is no 'one size fits all' I suppose

John
Old 01-17-2013, 10:43 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

We used two auto batteries with the Dynatron and if you kept the engine rolling over for any length of time the starter would start getting hot to the touch. If we just burped it on and off it was fine. I have loaned out my starter with that HF 18 volt to people and if they keep it rolling over too long it will get hot. When I loan it out I make sure to tell them how to use it or the switch can get fried.
I didn't know that Sullivan didn't have a complete warranty on that starter. My friend that bought the Dynatron is now fully electric so when I see him this year I may be able to get whatever old gear he still has, I hope the Dynatron is still with him!! That's one stout starter.
Old 01-17-2013, 10:49 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I have done a lot of buyouts as folks definately tend to come and go GB but if there is a Dynatron in the pile then that is a deal clincher.


John
Old 01-17-2013, 10:50 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?


ORIGINAL: chadxp1

You could put a car tire between the starter and the cone and you will not get any more torque out of the starter.
Too bad you didn't read my actual post...

I said LEVERAGE.

The larger cone produces a bigger lever moment, resulting in more torque being applied to the engine, particularly if you have a spinner that can be gripped further out.

That is why I can easily start 55cc gassers with my Hobbico starter... a larger cone plus a 14.8v source.

Old 01-17-2013, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

ORIGINAL: opjose


ORIGINAL: chadxp1

You could put a car tire between the starter and the cone and you will not get any more torque out of the starter.
Too bad you didn't read my actual post...

I said LEVERAGE.

The larger cone produces a bigger lever moment, resulting in more torque being applied to the engine, particularly if you have a spinner that can be gripped further out.

That is why I can easily start 55cc gassers with my Hobbico starter... a larger cone plus a 14.8v source.


Actually, leverage doesn't matter or make any difference to a starter driving a cone as far as the force transmitted to the engine is concerned. That is, it doesn't make any difference if the cone (of any diameter) grips the spinner or prop without slipping. No matter what diameter the grip is found, once gripped the starter is basically locked to the spinner until it slips. And how far the grip is from the axis of rotation means nothing.

The mass of the cone would have some effect once it was spun to speed. But once a cone and spinner grip, they are basically one piece, and the point of contact literally vanishes into theory.

The leverage would matter to how easily the cone might slip if too little effort was put into forcing the cone onto the spinner of course. But that's something else entirely.
Old 01-17-2013, 11:34 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?



The larger cone permits the driving motor to "lock in" instead of spinning freely and become one piece as you've said.

That assures that torque is actually transferred.

I can easily start my 50cc'ers with a plain Hobbico starter if I up the voltage PROVIDED I'm utilizing the large cone.

If I use a small cone I just ruin the spinner or rubber/silicon insert.


Old 01-17-2013, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Here is my solution for the times I want a larger cone on my Dynatron, the one that uses the standard small one inch cone but only on occasion. It was home machined to fit over the standard small cone with the rubber removed and just two set screws and its converts to two inch cone in seconds. Far better and less difficult that switching out the alum aftermarket large cones.

Just my solution for a bit more versatility with This starter, I run with either 18 or 24 volt Black and Decker.

John
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Nice solution.

You're more likely to have the right cone with you this way.

Old 01-17-2013, 07:38 PM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

I read your post and corrected it. You may get more grip with larger cone on your starter, not more torque.
ORIGINAL: opjose


ORIGINAL: chadxp1

You could put a car tire between the starter and the cone and you will not get any more torque out of the starter.
Too bad you didn't read my actual post...

I said LEVERAGE.

The larger cone produces a bigger lever moment, resulting in more torque being applied to the engine, particularly if you have a spinner that can be gripped further out.

That is why I can easily start 55cc gassers with my Hobbico starter... a larger cone plus a 14.8v source.

Old 01-18-2013, 07:59 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

Hi!
Sorry! But a bigger cone does not give more lever moment! More area tutching the spinner yes! but not more leverage.
I use a 4cell (14,8v) LiPo , 2000mAh, on my Sullivan starter! Awesame power!
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?


ORIGINAL: jaka

Hi!
Sorry! But a bigger cone does not give more lever moment! More area tutching the spinner yes! but not more leverage.
I use a 4cell (14,8v) LiPo , 2000mAh, on my Sullivan starter! Awesame power!

ARRRGH!

The larger cone grips the spinner better on the OUTSIDE of the spinner.

That imparts FULL TORQUE onto the motor.

If the spinner is gripped by the tip using a small cone, the cone can and will slide and you will NOT transfer the motor torque to the motor.

Not only does the larger spinner grip over a larger area, but the point of the "grip" is further removed from the spinner center imparting a larger lever moment to the spinner, and hence less tendancy for the cone material to release...

I did not mean to imply that somehow the motor produces more torque than it does normally. However a larger cone transfers that torque effectively.




Old 01-19-2013, 06:32 AM
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Default RE: using 2 - 3s lipos to power 12v starter?

+ 1 Jake I have a old Sullivan HD 3 cell old lipo 25c 3200
and a old 3 cell 25 c 1800 the 1800 needs to be charge more offten but does my 20 cc DLE no problim
and when new charge will do a DLE 55

the starter pad button is the only week point EZ fix mine is from the 1980 had to re work it !!!!

this cone thing BLABLABLA just use one to fit and gets a good GRIP some times when I ready to fly I need to look for it

At one Fun Fly it ended up on the Flight line all day now every body seams to have one

the people with a lot ot G62 will have a 4 cell R/L

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