"experts"
10-23-2014, 08:19 PM
#76
I asked this before in the newbies forum but no expert ever answered. I'll ask again: Various airplane gyro gadgets require that the plane must be set in a "level" configuration to make an initial setting of the gyro. My question is, how do I determine if the plane is level? Put a level on the rear stabilizer? What if the rear stabilizer is not flat? Arrange the plane so a line from the center of the prop to the rear of the plane is level? How do you determine the "rear of the Plane"? Arrange a level on the bottom of the wing? What if the bottom of the wing is not flat. Please give an expert explanation. If not, please give an expert opinion. If not, please give an expert guess. If not, please give an expert "I don't know!"
10-24-2014, 02:43 AM
#77
Considering - "one with the special skill or knowledge representing mastery of a particular subject" as an expert and yet, to me, if the one that has such skill and knowledge has no tact they fall off the expert mountain. Having a great deal of mastery and cannot deliver it just blows it in my way of thinking. Also we see some are just an expert in their own minds and truly know very little about anything much.
How hard is it for us to learn anything from the experts when they are unable to share? Imagine a person that is an expert on engines, but cannot help you get your engine running. I am thinking "mastery" requires all aspects to be an expert. The day a man learns how to share (pay it forward) his great expertise with humility is a grand day for many may benefit. It is funny how when we are young we are experts on everything and when we get older we realize just how much we don't know about everything!
How hard is it for us to learn anything from the experts when they are unable to share? Imagine a person that is an expert on engines, but cannot help you get your engine running. I am thinking "mastery" requires all aspects to be an expert. The day a man learns how to share (pay it forward) his great expertise with humility is a grand day for many may benefit. It is funny how when we are young we are experts on everything and when we get older we realize just how much we don't know about everything!
10-24-2014, 04:36 AM
#78
There is a certain type of person that will not accept help regardless of where it comes from. I see we have a few with that personality type here on RCU. Sincerity is something very difficult to get across over the internet. Do you think just maybe some people trying to help others are being judged incorrectly and they are just wanting to help but are being tagged as self proclaimed or a blowhard?
10-24-2014, 06:32 AM
#81
I asked this before in the newbies forum but no expert ever answered. I'll ask again: Various airplane gyro gadgets require that the plane must be set in a "level" configuration to make an initial setting of the gyro. My question is, how do I determine if the plane is level? Put a level on the rear stabilizer? What if the rear stabilizer is not flat? Arrange the plane so a line from the center of the prop to the rear of the plane is level? How do you determine the "rear of the Plane"? Arrange a level on the bottom of the wing? What if the bottom of the wing is not flat. Please give an expert explanation. If not, please give an expert opinion. If not, please give an expert guess. If not, please give an expert "I don't know!"
Bubble level on that central former should be level, you can figure it out from there.
10-24-2014, 07:13 AM
#82
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Threads like this have a way of going nowhere fast. I guess that is why it finally caught my attention. Years ago I read that it takes about 5000 hours of work in a subject to become expert on the subject, and I think that is not too far from the truth. Superficial knowledge can come in a much shorter time, and BS only fools those that know less.
Further, there is a big difference between someone with 40 years of experience and someone that has 1 year of experience done 40 times.
Experts still make mistakes, but usually they are more subtle. So they are easier to hide.
The hobby has exploded with the number of options. Run thru it as fast as you can, you are still losing ground to the new technology. So do what you want, it's just a hobby.
Further, there is a big difference between someone with 40 years of experience and someone that has 1 year of experience done 40 times.
Experts still make mistakes, but usually they are more subtle. So they are easier to hide.
The hobby has exploded with the number of options. Run thru it as fast as you can, you are still losing ground to the new technology. So do what you want, it's just a hobby.
10-24-2014, 07:17 AM
#84
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Some plans, I believe, maybe most of them, advise what the incidence on the horizontal stabilizer should be. If it is zero (many are) then a level on the stabilizer will give you what you are looking for. If it has incidence, say + 1 degree, simply set the airplane with the horizontal stabilizer at + 1 degree and the plane will be "level" or at its normal flying attitude. This is assuming the plane was built to specs. I believe this to be correct but it may be some of that bad advice we have been discussing.
10-24-2014, 07:21 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
iam just a good flyer dont care who thinks they are experts>i have fun worry about your self not any one else
10-24-2014, 09:07 AM
#88
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In the book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell (the author) indicated that his studies showed that one has to practice a discipline for 10,000 hours to be considered an expert. What punches a hole in that concept is if you do something for 10,000 hours incorrectly... I suppose that this is a possibility given how many people are in society today that one would figure that Darwin would have caught up with by now...
10-24-2014, 11:31 AM
#90
Did anybody notice that I (so far) have three different answers to my question about when a model plane is "level". I tend to follow the Hossfly method of "That Looks About Right" and I suspect I'm not alone. I respect the fact that I received information from multiple sources, but it's obvious that advice from others requires some mental capacity for sorting out the best advice and applying it to your project/problem/question. Relying on "expert" advice requires that the source truly is an expert and you are capable of determining the source's credentials. If those criteria are not met, then you're at risk using the advice.
10-24-2014, 12:04 PM
#91
Jim, I did notice that but I think more importantly I noticed how it was done. The three guys who offered up advise simply stated how they would go about the task. None of them took anything away from the previous poster. IMO that was textbook on how to express different solutions. All too often someone posts a perfectly good resolution just to blown out of the water by the next guy who starts his post off with " That's wrong ". Then the arguing starts up with the original posting where his experience came from. IE I've been competing_________ for 15 years and have always been successful doing it this way. Then the labels come out because someone has demonstrated his success and the other guy has to resort to something to save face. IMO everyone can have and express their opinions, but don't step on the previous guy in the process.
10-24-2014, 12:39 PM
#92
The three answers I received were from experience saying, in effect, "This is the way I did it and it worked for me." Nobody stepped on anybody else and I didn't see a single comment attacking or lauding the suggestions (so far.) All three comments were helpful and even Hossfly is welcome in my workshop. To Andy, I am asking in reference to the Eagle Tree Guardian. My installation wants to climb at half throttle instead of fly level and I'm too reluctant to adjust pitch further down. Jollypopper: What the heck is "incidence"? Remember, I'm still new at this hobby. And old.
10-24-2014, 01:35 PM
#94
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To the OP's first statement/Rant:
As for me. I am an expert in one thing. That is when I sleep. I can expertly do that. Got years of experience and no-one can out expert me on that. On the other hand. I am pretty good at building, flying and wrenching on RC aircraft. However, I am not an expert at it just pretty good.
Just sayin. LOL
Glenn
As for me. I am an expert in one thing. That is when I sleep. I can expertly do that. Got years of experience and no-one can out expert me on that. On the other hand. I am pretty good at building, flying and wrenching on RC aircraft. However, I am not an expert at it just pretty good.
Just sayin. LOL
Glenn
10-24-2014, 01:57 PM
#95
Jim,
Generally a reference of incidence is the angle between the cord line of the wing where the wing is mounted to the fuselage, and a reference axis along the fuselage longitudinal axis, so If your fuselage is positioned longitudinally to 0 degrees and you set and lock your your wing to lets say 2 degrees positive while your fuse is locked at 0 then this would be a 2 degrees positive A of I and vise versa for a negative A of I setup. The same applies for a canard or a horizontal stabilizer. On most all of my stuff I set all my incidence to 0 degrees from one another, wings fuse, and horizontal stabs. I hope this is useful information to you.
Bob
Generally a reference of incidence is the angle between the cord line of the wing where the wing is mounted to the fuselage, and a reference axis along the fuselage longitudinal axis, so If your fuselage is positioned longitudinally to 0 degrees and you set and lock your your wing to lets say 2 degrees positive while your fuse is locked at 0 then this would be a 2 degrees positive A of I and vise versa for a negative A of I setup. The same applies for a canard or a horizontal stabilizer. On most all of my stuff I set all my incidence to 0 degrees from one another, wings fuse, and horizontal stabs. I hope this is useful information to you.
Bob
10-24-2014, 02:08 PM
#96
Level is the attitude of the aircraft relative to the ground and this is what you are setting up when you level the aircraft to initialize the gyro. With an aircraft airspeed and airfoil shape will effect how the airplane fly’s even with a gyro. The gyro sets the attitude and at a given airspeed the aircraft will fly straight and level but lower the airspeed and the aircraft will descend straight and level. Certain airfoils like a lifting one will have a greater tendency to climb at increased airspeeds even if they are at the same attitude.
I have used this property to stabilize the climb rate of my glider tug. It’s a tail dragger so I place a setup block under the tail wheel when initializing the gyro. The gyro is mounted on a board that is hinged at one end and raised or lowered at the other with a servo. The servo is actuated by a rotary switch. When the glider and tug are in the air the board is lowered until the attitude of the tug reaches maximum angle of climb for the glider being towed. Turns are mostly rudder only and gentle. At the top of the tow the board and gyro are again leveled and the tug tops out with the glider releasing. The gyro and board are slightly raised and the throttle reduced and the tug adopts a nice nose down attitude as it glides back to the base. The gyro makes the whole thing very uneventful. The tug has a modified Clark Y airfoil so there is a lot of lift and before the gyro it was common to almost stall the tug under tow at altitude where it was harder to see the attitude of the tug.
I use a block of a known length under the tail wheel to set the attitude I want for the aircraft. The length was determined by trial and error to get what worked for me. Being able to adjust the gyro in flight compensates for any airspeed or pilot.
Dennis
I have used this property to stabilize the climb rate of my glider tug. It’s a tail dragger so I place a setup block under the tail wheel when initializing the gyro. The gyro is mounted on a board that is hinged at one end and raised or lowered at the other with a servo. The servo is actuated by a rotary switch. When the glider and tug are in the air the board is lowered until the attitude of the tug reaches maximum angle of climb for the glider being towed. Turns are mostly rudder only and gentle. At the top of the tow the board and gyro are again leveled and the tug tops out with the glider releasing. The gyro and board are slightly raised and the throttle reduced and the tug adopts a nice nose down attitude as it glides back to the base. The gyro makes the whole thing very uneventful. The tug has a modified Clark Y airfoil so there is a lot of lift and before the gyro it was common to almost stall the tug under tow at altitude where it was harder to see the attitude of the tug.
I use a block of a known length under the tail wheel to set the attitude I want for the aircraft. The length was determined by trial and error to get what worked for me. Being able to adjust the gyro in flight compensates for any airspeed or pilot.
Dennis
10-24-2014, 02:40 PM
#97
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Just to let you know... An "ex" is a has been and a "spurt" is what comes out of a water hose....
I am neither
An old man once told me to find two farmers that grow the same crop on neighboring farms and see if they agree about how to farm
I am neither
An old man once told me to find two farmers that grow the same crop on neighboring farms and see if they agree about how to farm
10-24-2014, 05:34 PM
#98
Andy - The Eagle Tree Guardian instructions require that the gyro is to be mounted level with leveled airframe. Step 1 would be: Level the airplane. Step 2 would be: Install the Guardian at the CG as level as possible in the pitch plane and the roll plane (there is some acceptable slop which the software will correct.) Step 3 would be: With the software active and computer connected to the Guardian, click the "Reset Level Pitch/Roll" button. The airplane is now ready to fly nice and level. The problem here is step 1. How do you determine when the airplane is "level"? Sensei - How do you position the fuselage longitudinally to 0 degrees? Dennis - Your solution is interesting but all I want is the Plane to fly straight and level when I'm not operating the sticks. It keeps me out of a lot of trouble like when I disable the gyro in flight and get more practice flying normally. If I screw up, a flip of a switch saves a lot of walking and tree climbing.
10-24-2014, 06:03 PM
#99
While I have no experience with those devices, I would think that the "level" you are looking for would be the incidence at which the wing flies. For example a symmetrical airfoil typically flies at +.5 to +.75 degrees of incidence. A semi symmetrical airfoil typically flies at zero. Is there anything that prevents you from using the wing as your reference point?
10-24-2014, 07:35 PM
#100
How do I measure the wing incidence? Is the reference a line from the lead edge through the wing to the trail edge? This assumes a line from the furthest point forward on the lead edge to the center of the trail edge. In that case, there is an obvious angle between that line and the bottom surface of a flat bottom wing or a semi symmetrical wing. This means the bottom surface of the wing would be pointed down if the line were used as "level". That seems contradictory. I don't want to be argumentative or take over this thread with my problems, so if there is a book (if there is such a thing as a book, anymore) that could guide me, please let me know. And thank all who have replied to my question. You are greatly appreciated.