Mlw316

So I've flown my smaller electric airplane many times. Successfully take off, fly for ten minutes and successfully land. I've gotten my tower hobbies .40 trainer back up and running reliably now and have flown it many times successfully as well. Even went through a few dead stick landings. Fun.

My question is how does one know when they are qualified enough to move onto a non-trainer airplane? Is it just a feeling or is there a sort of check list?

TomCrump

After you have reasonable command of the Tower Trainer, you can start the hunt for something a bit more advanced.

The key is to choose the correct model in order to make the transition successful.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Good morning Mlw, I concur with what Tom has posted above. Where things start to go haywire is when the fellows start to choose and airplane type that is to big of a jump. One example is twins. A jump straight from a trainer to a twin especially a glow twin is seldom successful. There are many examples and here is one litmus test you can make that you may find handy in choosing a second and even a third airplane; its the wing, no not the wing shape but the thickness of the wing. Yes many common RC airplanes that have wings that seem to be thicker and they will tend to be far more forgiving and generally a better choice.

For example most of the so called scale aerobatic airplanes such as the many Extras, Sukhoi, Cap's and so on tend to have wings that are quite thin for their size (for those who care to know this is called the airfoils thickness ratio). These airplanes although may be quite good aerobatic types but will be poor transition airplanes and tend to be snappy in pull ups and approachs to land etc..

Now compare Sigs transition airplane called Something Extra also the Towers uproar not a scale type but neither is the something extra being what I call a characture airplane. On close examination you will find both a high thickness ratio in other words very thick wings. That makes these ships among other things very very safe to take to the edge. Both can be good choices.

Now just one further thought that I would like to suggest and that is trimming. The fellows I mentor before even solo I practice training them in trimming any airplane in flight and by themselves and practice this until they show reasonable proficiency in this necessary skill.

John

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Mlw, because you have the appropriate equipment already you may want to take a look at the Tower Kaos .40 ARF or the World models T-34. Both have great flying manners and would be excellent advanced trainers. Like John I would stay away from the popular scale aerobatic types but not for the same reasons. I feel that they can be set up to fly gently and are actually quite forgiving however they are rather fragile and you most likely need more stick time before moving into a tail dragger. Whichever airplane you choose, spend considerable time learning to use rudder. Practice hammerhead stalls, lining up the airplane on final with rudder and not ailerons and work up to point rolls. Rudder usage is what separates good pilots and great pilots.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Funny that John and Shawn mentioned the Up-Roar and the Kaos, two of my all time favorite planes. All the fun fly type of planes have that thick wing and semi symmetrical airfoil. Not so the Kaos but it is a lot more of a precision acrobatic plane that was designed for pattern flying. I went right from a trainer to an Up-Roar and found it a better plane, {easier to fly} then the trainer but it was great for learning stunt flying. When I went to my first Kaos I was dazzled at how well it did everything. The Kaos isn't any harder to fly then any of the fun fly planes, just a bit faster but it's just as easy to land.
The Up-Roar kit comes up for sale every once in a while for about 40 bucks and about 100 beans for the ARF. The 40 size Kaos comes at about the same price but as an ARF only with trike gear. All the Kaos planes I have had were tail draggers, so is the Roar. The Dazzler is pretty much a Roar with a turtle deck and a bit different stab and rudder. Not as boxy looking.
There is a complete thread on the Roar in kit building, about page two and if you go into classic pattern there are tons of threads on the Kaos.
There are plenty of good threads about the second plane with a lot of good choices. Just use second plane on the search engine.

Mlw316

Thanks guys for your input....

I have a Goldberg Tiger II in the box waiting for me to start building as a second airplane. I think I'll stick to the trainer a little while longer. Maybe get more acquainted with my rudder :-). I have had trouble with getting the trim set just right; seems I'll get it correct one flight then it will be off the next. Is that normal? Maybe I'm feeling the wind and not a trim issue?

Thanks again guys. I just didn't want to jump off into the deep end without knowing I could swim.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

You are welcome Mlw, Some thoughts on the trims and I believe you are talking about the pitch trim (elevator). What many folks do not realize is that with a power plane is that pitch trim changes with every little small power change. Increase the power and the nose will want to rise and reduce the power it will want to drop.

I suspect that this is what you are experiencing from flight to flight and simply not aware you are flying with a slightly different power setting. This is one reason that all who I mentor I give homework yup homework and that is while they are watching TV to practice finding both the aileron and elevator trim with their left thumb all without looking.

Back to the pitch/power trim thing, the idea is to establish a reduced power for level flight and not blasting along at full power all the time (SRT is quite right when he suggest the use of the rudder is a mark of someone that flys with more skill but also throttle control is another very important and obvious mark of better airmanship) Once this power setting is established then the pitch trim is reset.

Oh by the way your Goldberg tiger is a superb next type airplane and likely will become your favorite, Suggestion build it reasonably stock and do not get carried away with big engines.

John

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Your trainer has a flat bottomed wing so your trim will change with speed changes. Your Tiger can be set up so that it will fly at the same trim through most of the envelope. The key is getting the CG in the correct range. Most instructors still teach that a nose heavy airplane is more stable. The problem with that is the airplane will have to carry up trim all the time. This up trim will change with speed. By creeping the CG back you can find a range where this trim change is minimized or in some cases eliminated. A side benifit is that an airplane with correct CG will actually land slower as well.

JohnBuckner

My Feedback: (1)

Here is a picture of a Tiger that I built long ago to meet the standards of the now defunct giant scale organization. I called it the Steriod Tiger and I oversized it to an eighty inch wingspan. Used an OS 1.08 it was somewhat overweight which made it a wonderful airplane that typifies the expression that it must be 'flown on the wing'. I think it on its fourth owner now and still active locally

John

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Yep, the tiger is one of the planes often mentioned as the second plane. There are really a lot of second planes out there that are excellent choices. There are several of the Tigers flying at my local fields.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

If you can't coordinate rudder/ailerons your not ready.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Not so, I discovered my basic instructor wasn't a rudder user and I flew with elevator and aileron for quite a while until I got an advanced instructor that started teaching me pattern flying. It's best to learn rudder first but for a long time most instructors didn't teach rudder for basic flying. I wouldn't dream of not teaching it now days but it happened.

TomCrump

I don't see a problem, if you wanted to begin construction on your Tiger II.

I'm a Sig fan, and would have suggested the Four Star, but the Tiger II is a great airframe. It builds well and flies well, too.

Keep flying your trainer as you build, to gain more experience.

jester_s1

I think you'll find that you're worried about nothing. The classic "second plane" planes all fly basically like a trainer without the self-righting characteristics. Your Tiger II will float in for landings much like your trainer does, and it will be as gentle or as hot as you want it to be. The upshot is that it will also be much smoother in the wind and will be more obedient to your control inputs. Nearly everyone who graduates from trainers to Ugly Sticks, 4 Stars, or similar says that their second plane is easier to fly than their first and that they really didn't know how good they really were at flying until they got a plane that responded like it should.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

When I had a student that wanted to learn to build I used the 4*60 as the training tool and taught them to build while I was teaching them to fly with my trainer. When they were finished with the trainer after the solo the 4* was finished and they had there own plane. Only one was lost due to a crash but it was really the kids fault. He wouldn't keep the plane in front of him and when he was behind the pit area he was facing due east and got sun balled then lost the plane. I walked out three times and told him to keep the plane out in front of him but boys will be boys.
I had my nephew fly his trainer until the covering was falling off, from that he went right into a Kaos 60 without problems. Just build your plane and by the time it is finished you will be ready for it.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

What an exciting time for you! I had a tiger as my second plane. It ended up being a great decision. I had it almost done, and then I crashed my trainer. Good thing I had it almost done, as otherwise I would not have had anything to fly. Photo taken summer 1986

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Well since we are talking about second airplanes, I began my training with an Ugly Stick. It was lost before I was able to solo. My solo was done on a Bridi trainer .20. 2 weeks after my solo the trainer was lost in a midair ( my first of about 10 or so ). My dad was an avid Q500 pilot at the time and that's where I was headed but had expected to have more time with the trainer. So there I was 3 weeks after my solo standing behind 3 screaming Q500 airplanes waiting for the start flag to drop.

lonestoner

The tiger 60 flys like a trainer

glasrep

My Feedback: (1)

You have the tiger. Both the 40 and 60 size fly like trainers and land slow, giving you a lot of time to make decisions landing. The "fault" if there is one of the tigers is the landing gear mounts to wings, not to the fuselage, and for a beginner the landings must be smoother or one risks damage to the plane. Enjoy your flying.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Although you could probably handle a more advanced aircraft, It's likely that your trainer still has much to teach you.

Can you do three aileron rolls in succession along a readonably straight line? Three loops in succession in the same spot without wandering? Cuban eights and stall turns? How about dead stick the aircraft and have it roll out at your feet? How long can you fly it inverted? Pretty good at crosswind landings? Do you feel comfortable enough to fly even on windy days, 15 mph or more? Good at spot landings? How about landing on the mains, rolling out and then taking off again never letting the nosewheel touch the ground? Most of all can you land the aircraft on the runway centerline every time? Lot's of fun can be had with a simple trainer!

A great way to learn how to use the rudder is to slow the aircraft while pointed into the wind, continue to slow till on the edge of a stall, at the stall come in with a bit of power holding the aircraft right at the stall at minimum speed and constant altitude. Your speed will be so slow that your ailerons will be useless, holding a constant heading will require quick action on the rudder. With any wind at all the aircraft should be nearly hovering with zero groundspeed, on windy days you can even make it back up! It's great practice for those occasions when performing a go-around at the last second, close to the ground and at minimum speed.

Never get rid of your trainer, it will come in handy later to test an engine, servo or receiver, or to show a friend how much fun flying RC airplanes can be.

TomCrump

I agree. Sometimes they are fun to fly, just for a change of pace.

I just built my fourth trainer. This one is a modified Sig Kadet Senior.

lonestoner

Whatever you do please do not let fear get in ur way,in order to progress you have to take that step,we are not building the space shuttle here,there is a curve and you have to go through it,make it fun with a light heart.if you do not fail there will be no progression,just like riding a bike,go fly and let it rip
stoner.

ma_mulcahy

I have to nominate a Stik, whether a full kit or an ARF. The kit is an easy build and either is a blast to fly!

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

The wing mounted LG acts as a shock absorber so they aren't as fragile as people think. If you manage to do wing damage with a trike geared plane you have really done something wrong and the front gear will also be history.

AllModesR/C

Is it true that you are supposed to only use a little rudder to initiate a turn? With the ailerons of course. But during the turn you should not be using the rudder?