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Glow Plugs and older engine.

Old 04-21-2015, 06:40 PM
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erwabo
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Default Glow Plugs and older engine.

Okay..so I am 100% beginner. My wifes grandpa who cant fly anymore gave me all his stuff. Including 2 trainer planes. One has a Saito FA-150 engine and the other has OS MAX-60FP. The transmitter is a Futaba FP-T8UAP (old 72 Mhz model) The receiver works fine in one plane, however the other plane not sure whats up with it. The receiver and servos all worked ONCE, then I turned off the transmitter and turned it back on and all the servos twitch and then I have nothing, so that MAY be a bad receiver because the other one works.

Any how my question is these engines. I bought an igniter stick with a glow plug tester and both plugs are good in the engines....however both of the instruction manuals for the engines talk about using a 1.5 volt dry cell and using the old resistance coils to heat the glow plugs. So will an iginiter stick work? I couldn't get either engine to even begin to start. Neither one is set up to take an electric starter, they are both hand start due to the propeller mounts. I followed the priming instructions and the only thing I can think of is I flooded the engine which seems like it would be an easy beginner mistake, but I thought there would at least be something.

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Old 04-21-2015, 07:50 PM
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Back in the day, all we had to use for glow plugs were 1.5 volt lantern batteries. Now days we have glow igniters that work really well. So the one that you are using should be just fine.

As for the receivers, you really need to replace the receiver batteries. And for old 72 mhz radios, I'm still one. So as long as it works - - go for it.

Frank
Old 04-21-2015, 07:58 PM
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Default Welcome!

Firstly, welcome to a wonderful hobby! There is so much to learn and to love about RC planes.

Secondly, congratulations on the tranche of RC equipment. To have a trainer plane is a great start. You may want to check that the plane with the Saito FA-150 is in fact a trainer plane; that is the largest engine I've ever heard of in a trainer and one rarely finds a Saito on a trainer. I suspect it isn't a trainer, it may just look a bit like one.

You are also lucky as you have your wifes grandpa as a resource. He'll be in a good position to guide you through the equipment and get you started.

I'd ask him about the batteries. Most older batteries are not worth the risk of using; they may look fine, but they may hold 1/10th of their original charge and could lead to a safe crash if you are lucky, and much worse if you aren't. Dispose of them responsibly (Cadmium is highly toxic to the environment) and get new ones - it's completely worth it. Don't fly with untested or unknown batteries. They age poorly and are cheap to replace... so do it.

I once read here that 'the planes life expectancy is directly proportional to the owners ability to follow instruction'. I agree. Don't get 'flying fever' and ignore good reason to not fly.

Be humble. Learn from the experienced people at the field. Ask questions on here and elsewhere. You'll find there's nothing wrong with asking questions, although you may get different opinions. If two experienced people suggest different things... it likely doesn't matter as neither is a idiot.

You've got a lot to learn, but it's SO much fun!

1) Learn all you can from the internet. Forums like these are very helpful. Use the search box.
2) Buy a flight simulator as it will save you a LOT of time/money/disappointment and allow you to quickly get in the air with an instructor. Learning takes time.
3) Join a local RC club - they are full of well-informed, friendly people.
4) Join the AMA - it offers insurance and access to the best flying sites that will keep you out of trouble. The AMA is the 'voice' of our world; join and benefit from it.
5) Get any local permit to fly in designated areas (if applicable).
6) Learn about batteries, engines, tuning, propellers, servos, FM/2.4ghz, stalling, take-offs, landings, Center of Gravity issues, engine care and more.
7) Enjoy the most engaging and exciting hobby I can think of!

Keep the questions coming. If in doubt, photos will help us answer any questions.

PD.
Old 04-22-2015, 03:31 AM
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Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

HAHA, yes large engine indeed, but it is a trainer....its just a very large one. Its about a 5 foot wingspan...long thin body and a fairly large tail. Ive been using a trainer on my ipad and the hobby store I found has a really nice one in the store so I go in there and practice. I will probably pick up an fairly non destructable electric one to practice on before I fly these nitrous engines.

My wifes grandpa is 86 and stopped flying when he was about 70, and unfortunately he doesnt remember much of how to do anything. He gave away the batteries, electric starter, glow plug igniter, fuel pump and fuel when he quit flying so bought a bunch of that a couple days ago. I bought a cheap battery pack that holds 4 AA's because I wanted to test the planes before I spent $40 on a Ni-Cad pack, and then I picked up a Ni-Cad pack yesterday.

I spent quite a bit of time this week figuring out the transmitter and playing with the 2 planes, but like I said, even with a brand new battery I cant get that second plane to work now. I plug in the battery pack and every servo will twitch, when I power on the trasmitter they twitch again, but I get no control. The guy at the hobby store said turn on transmitter first, which i tried, and again when I put in the battery pack they just twitch. If I pull the crystal and put it back in they also just twitch....so Im thinking it may be bad.

There is a local club around here, but I talked to one member and he said they dont allow the old 72 Mhz transmitters, so eventually I will need a new transmitter and receiver anyhow.

The engines are my biggest issue...other than following the manual, I just cant get them started, but I dont know enough about them yet. Both the props do seem fairly stiff, but I can flip them. Im guessin the engines probably need to be disassembled and cleaned since they have been sitting for 15 years, but I thought I would at least get SOMETHING out of them with fully charged igniter and good glow plugs.

But i Just started learning Tuesday, so what do I know =)
Old 04-22-2015, 07:25 AM
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Here's how I start my engines. Works good for me hand flipping or with electric starter.
After you have put fuel in and put the fuel line back on open the throttle all the way.
Without the igniter on put your finger over the carb to choke it. Hold the prop and turn the engine over
(don't flip it). When you see the fuel line fill with fuel stop and put the igniter on
With the throttle still open choke the engine and turn it over a couple more times. Hold on to the prop
(don't flip it) you don't want it too start with wide open throttle. Alternate between
choking and not choking. When you feel it fire or bump it's ready to start. Close the
throttle down to idle setting and flip to start or use your starter. If you hand flip it I think
this will give you the best chance for an easy start.
Old 04-22-2015, 08:14 AM
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The engines have been sitting idle for 15 years, so chances are that they have solidified fuel blocking the needle valve orifices. You're going to need some way to control the engine speed when one of these engines starts, so let's only consider the airplane with the working radio. Does that engine have compression when you flip it over? If so, let's concentrate on getting that one started.

First, pull the glow plug from the engine Attach the glow battery to the plug. Does it light up? If it does, put it back in the engine. If it doesn't, replace it with a new one.

Is this engine a two stroke or four stroke engine?

OK, you have a known good glow plug and compression when you flip the engine. Now, let's find out if the engine will draw fuel. The proper sequence in turning your radio equipment on is to turn the transmitter on first and then the receiver. Always turn the transmitter on first, then the receiver and when turning the radio off, turn the receiver off first and then turn the transmitter off. Always in this order. So we are going to activate the entire radio system. Turn your transmitter on. Now turn your receiver on. Push the throttle lever all the way forward on the transmitter. Do not have the glow plug battery connected at this time. With the throttle stick all the way forward, does the carburetor barrel open? If it does not, find out why not. Is the throttle servo not working? Is the linkage bound up? Or is the carburetor stuck from congealed fuel? Once we get the carburetor working properly, we can check to see if the engine will draw fuel..To do this, push the throttle stick forward (carburetor fully open) and flip the engine over several times, glow plug battery not attached. You should see fuel drawn through the fuel line going to the carburetor. If it does draw fuel, you are ready for the next step. If it does not draw fuel, find out why it does not draw fuel. Chances are that you have a clogged needle valve if it does not draw and the fuel system will have to be cleaned to fix it.

So at this point, you have compression and you have fuel going to the carburetor. Remember,. this is all done so far without the glow battery connected to the glow plug. You do NOT want the engine to accidently start at this time. Either of the engines, the .60 or the 1.50, is big enough to do some serious damage to you if it accidently started and you were not prepared for it to start.

Let me say this at this time. With an engine that was previously run and then set idle for 15 years, I would clean the engine both inside and out before doing anything else to it. Chasing a starting problem with an old gummed up engine can be pretty frustrating. A well cleaned engine is much easier to work with and to trouble shoot problems. Just for future reference, do you have access to compressed air?

This is enough for now. Which engine are we trying to start, by the way? Do all the things necessary to get fuel flowing to the engine and post it and someone will take you through the next steps to starting this puppy.
Old 04-22-2015, 09:21 AM
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Well...things just got worse...haha. So I unscrewed the glow plug from the Saito 150, and it does in fact glow...but it seems to have cross threaded on the way out, so it wont seal now when I try to screw it back in, I can hear air leaking out when I turn the prop. I do have another Saito 150 but the throttle seems to be frozen and I cant even move it. The plane with the malfunctioning receiver that has the max 60P seems to have a different issue. I can open and close the throttle, but I never see the carb open. I have another 60P where the carb opens that I can try and replace that with.

So how does one clean an engine...I don't have an air compressor, however I can take it over to said grandpas house, he has one.

There was definitely fuel in both engines...unfortunately for the 60P I carried in the house and turned it sideways which filled the muffler full of fuel, so I had to empty that one out =)
Old 04-22-2015, 09:47 AM
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You need someone, maybe your wife's grandpa, who can spend some time with you on the engines. It doesn't make sense that a glow plug would get cross threaded on the way out. Someone knowledgeable should have a look.

A 5 foot wingspan is normal for a 40 size trainer. Often they are a larger than that. For example, a Sig LT-40 has nearly a 6 foot span but flies well as a trainerA on a mild 40. A 60 size trainer will typically be at least 6 feet. A 150 size trainer...beats me, but it better be a LOT bigger than 5 or 6 feet.
Old 04-22-2015, 09:56 AM
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The plug didn't cross thread, but it looks like the engine did, there were little tiny pieces of metal and when I look in there with a light, it looks like the threading is a bit messed up. I have a duplicate engine, so I can probably swap out the heads since the carb is frozen on the other one, I cant use it anyhow.
Old 04-22-2015, 10:31 AM
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Okay so I removed the Saito and I attached 2 photos...the carb/throttle is stuck open and I cannot rotate it at all, which is probably why the servo was buzzing, trying to return to neutral. Both Saitos are locked. Am I missing something. I removed the carb from the OS to try and clean it. When I connect the throttle, it rotates, but the carb doesn't open. Any ideas...this one is stuck shut.

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Old 04-22-2015, 10:59 AM
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Okay, I may be getting somewhere with the Saitos....I saturated the carb with some cleaner and was finally able to break it loose. So I swapped carbs and put the working one on to the other engine. I need to remount the engine and fuel her up and give it another try. Not sure sure what to do with the OS though...that may be stuck, that ones just not coming loose. I will let you know what happens with that Saito

Thanks again for all the feedback!! Much Appreciated!
Old 04-22-2015, 11:15 AM
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Back to your plane with the receiver that does not appear to work. If you look on the back of the radio, there should be a sticker with a 2-digit number on it. That is the "channel" or designator for the frequency that your radio transmits on. If you look on your receivers, you should see a small, plug-in crystal (see pic) which has a tag on it which also displays a channel number. The receiver channel number has to match the number on the back of your transmitter in order for it to communicate with the transmitter. Its possible that at one time, there was a second transmitter (on a different channel) that your granddad used for the other plane. If the number on the receiver that does not work is different than the one on your transmitter, you can buy another crystal with the correct channel number and replace the one in the receiver. They are only $10-$15 each but are getting hard to find now that most people have gone over to 2.4GHz systems.


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Old 04-22-2015, 11:19 AM
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For your OS carb, the throttle arm is held on the carburetor by a small phillips head screw. If this is not tight, the throttle arm will move without moving the carburetor barrel. Likely because the barrel is still stuck. Soak the carburetor in your glow fuel overnight (covered container so the fuel does not evaporate), then make sure the screw is tight, and see if you can get the barrel to rotate.
Old 04-22-2015, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RBACONS
Back to your plane with the receiver that does not appear to work. If you look on the back of the radio, there should be a sticker with a 2-digit number on it. That is the "channel" or designator for the frequency that your radio transmits on. If you look on your receivers, you should see a small, plug-in crystal (see pic) which has a tag on it which also displays a channel number. The receiver channel number has to match the number on the back of your transmitter in order for it to communicate with the transmitter. Its possible that at one time, there was a second transmitter (on a different channel) that your granddad used for the other plane. If the number on the receiver that does not work is different than the one on your transmitter, you can buy another crystal with the correct channel number and replace the one in the receiver. They are only $10-$15 each but are getting hard to find now that most people have gone over to 2.4GHz systems.





Yes I did check that and the crystal has the correct channel which is 12...same as the other receiver. I don't know why it worked ONCE, makes no sense

THanks for the tip on the OS carb, I'll soak it over night
Old 04-22-2015, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JollyPopper
The engines have been sitting idle for 15 years, so chances are that they have solidified fuel blocking the needle valve orifices. You're going to need some way to control the engine speed when one of these engines starts, so let's only consider the airplane with the working radio. Does that engine have compression when you flip it over? If so, let's concentrate on getting that one started.

First, pull the glow plug from the engine Attach the glow battery to the plug. Does it light up? If it does, put it back in the engine. If it doesn't, replace it with a new one.

Is this engine a two stroke or four stroke engine?

OK, you have a known good glow plug and compression when you flip the engine. Now, let's find out if the engine will draw fuel. The proper sequence in turning your radio equipment on is to turn the transmitter on first and then the receiver. Always turn the transmitter on first, then the receiver and when turning the radio off, turn the receiver off first and then turn the transmitter off. Always in this order. So we are going to activate the entire radio system. Turn your transmitter on. Now turn your receiver on. Push the throttle lever all the way forward on the transmitter. Do not have the glow plug battery connected at this time. With the throttle stick all the way forward, does the carburetor barrel open? If it does not, find out why not. Is the throttle servo not working? Is the linkage bound up? Or is the carburetor stuck from congealed fuel? Once we get the carburetor working properly, we can check to see if the engine will draw fuel..To do this, push the throttle stick forward (carburetor fully open) and flip the engine over several times, glow plug battery not attached. You should see fuel drawn through the fuel line going to the carburetor. If it does draw fuel, you are ready for the next step. If it does not draw fuel, find out why it does not draw fuel. Chances are that you have a clogged needle valve if it does not draw and the fuel system will have to be cleaned to fix it.

So at this point, you have compression and you have fuel going to the carburetor. Remember,. this is all done so far without the glow battery connected to the glow plug. You do NOT want the engine to accidently start at this time. Either of the engines, the .60 or the 1.50, is big enough to do some serious damage to you if it accidently started and you were not prepared for it to start.

Let me say this at this time. With an engine that was previously run and then set idle for 15 years, I would clean the engine both inside and out before doing anything else to it. Chasing a starting problem with an old gummed up engine can be pretty frustrating. A well cleaned engine is much easier to work with and to trouble shoot problems. Just for future reference, do you have access to compressed air?

This is enough for now. Which engine are we trying to start, by the way? Do all the things necessary to get fuel flowing to the engine and post it and someone will take you through the next steps to starting this puppy.
Okay...I remounted the engine and the throttle works great now and the carb opens and closes with no problem. The linkage is working, the glow plug is good and I am seeing fuel going INTO the engine. I replaced the needle valve as well, but I didn't have a chance to blow it out, however it was filled with cleaner, so I think it got cleared out. I tried starting again, but no dice
Old 04-22-2015, 11:34 AM
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I use heat to loosen old carbs and engines. A heat gun always does the job. RBACONS is right about the carb lever. Tighten down the throttle arm, then use heat. Don't force it; wait for the heat to work, and try it gently until it does. Then put it some light oil.

If you get into the hobby, then you might want to have the other Saito fixed, so I would put it aside and keep it. Then if you want to use it later you can order a part and have at it, or send it in to Horizon and have them fix it. It will cost, but it was free to begin with and you will have a good engine after they go over it.

Jim
Old 04-22-2015, 11:43 AM
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The amount that the needle valve is open is fairly critical to getting the engine to start and run properly. The Saito manual says screw it in all the way and then screw it out 5 full turns. Saito always has you set the needle valve too rich so I would start with 4 turns out at most. That should be good to get it to start but be aware that you will likely need to close the needle valve (turn it clockwise) to get the engine to run well. If you don't have the manual for the engine, you can find it on-line with a simple google search.
Old 04-22-2015, 11:49 AM
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There is a place where you can send your head to have it repaired . They put a heli coil in to repair the threads . This is something I am sure you must know but I will mention it anyway . Are you charging your transmitter and is it holding the charge ? You have two sets of batteries to look after . One set for your aircraft and one set inside your transmitter . They both must be charged seperatly . If you are trying to start your engins with the old fuel tanks you should replace everything . New tank,new fuel lines ,the works . The old stuff is rotten by now . Start over fresh . Four stroke engines have valves that get sticky and need to be clean and free working . A good soak in glow fuel should help . I would only dismantle as a last resort . You could take the carb off but don't get into takeing the valves apart if you can help it . You need to be careful and make sure things go back together the same way that they came apart . The little springs and retainers can easily go flying .
Old 04-22-2015, 12:05 PM
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So I am making progress, I pulled out the electric starter and Im able to get the prop turning as fast as the start turns, but its not starting. Also, I saw a bubble in the fuel line, so I plugged the muffler and did a few slow turns and saw the bubble moving down into the engine, so the fuel lines look good, so there is gas in the engine and the glow plug is good (at least the tester said it is) Getting closer, but something still preventing a good start.

" Chasing a starting problem with an old gummed up engine can be pretty frustrating" haha, Im finding this out =)
Old 04-22-2015, 12:25 PM
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Another thought on your bad receiver. Futaba 72MHz receivers and the 8UAP radios support two different transmission protocols, PPM (most prevalent) and PCM. The radio needs to be set to match the transmission protocol of the receiver. What are the model numbers of your good receiver and bad receiver?
Old 04-22-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bikerbc
There is a place where you can send your head to have it repaired . They put a heli coil in to repair the threads . This is something I am sure you must know but I will mention it anyway . Are you charging your transmitter and is it holding the charge ? You have two sets of batteries to look after . One set for your aircraft and one set inside your transmitter . They both must be charged seperatly . If you are trying to start your engins with the old fuel tanks you should replace everything . New tank,new fuel lines ,the works . The old stuff is rotten by now . Start over fresh . Four stroke engines have valves that get sticky and need to be clean and free working . A good soak in glow fuel should help . I would only dismantle as a last resort . You could take the carb off but don't get into takeing the valves apart if you can help it . You need to be careful and make sure things go back together the same way that they came apart . The little springs and retainers can easily go flying .
" A good soak in glow fuel will help"...you mean take the whole engine and stick it in fuel?

Yeah all my batteries (transmitter and receiver) are fully charged. I charged them last night.

Last edited by erwabo; 04-22-2015 at 12:33 PM.
Old 04-22-2015, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RBACONS
Another thought on your bad receiver. Futaba 72MHz receivers and the 8UAP radios support two different transmission protocols, PPM (most prevalent) and PCM. The radio needs to be set to match the transmission protocol of the receiver. What are the model numbers of your good receiver and bad receiver?
FP-R127DF is the one that isn't working. FP-R148DP is the one that is working
Old 04-22-2015, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by erwabo
So I am making progress, I pulled out the electric starter and Im able to get the prop turning as fast as the start turns, but its not starting. Also, I saw a bubble in the fuel line, so I plugged the muffler and did a few slow turns and saw the bubble moving down into the engine, so the fuel lines look good, so there is gas in the engine and the glow plug is good (at least the tester said it is) Getting closer, but something still preventing a good start.

" Chasing a starting problem with an old gummed up engine can be pretty frustrating" haha, Im finding this out =)
Three things to check:

1. Have you set the needle valve about 4 turns open?
2. Do you know for a fact (by visual inspection) that when you are trying to start the engine the carburetor is slightly open. That is, you should be able to see the barrel open about 1/16" - 1/8"?
3. You have a fuel line connecting the nipple on the muffler back to the fuel tank?
Old 04-22-2015, 12:36 PM
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Well I cant "see it" because its under the plane inside the body...however, when I put the throttle linkage back on, I verified the positioning so I know full open and full close and I put it at about half open. I tried the needle valve at 2, 3, 4 and 5 turns, yes there is a fuel line going from the nipple on the muffler back to the fuel tank.
Old 04-22-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by erwabo
FP-R127DF is the one that isn't working. FP-R148DP is the one that is working
Bingo!!! The FR-R148DP receiver is a PCM receiver. Since it is the one that works, it means the model you have selected in the transmitter has PCM mode enabled. It can not work with the FP-R127DF receiver which is PPM only. So, in order to use the "bad" receiver, you want to switch to a different model in your radio and set it to PPM mode.

On the Parameter display "PARA", you go to Modulation "MOD" and set it to "PPM" instead of "PCM".

Again, if you don't have the manual for the radio, you can download a copy from the Futaba website.

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