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Glow Plugs and older engine.

Old 04-23-2015, 12:33 PM
  #51  
hook57
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Per your post a few posts back, that Saito is likely a .91, not a 1.50, and. 12" prop is not unreasonable for it, depending on the pitch. You'll get great information from the guys here that will be useful. But my first recommendation, given you experience , is to proceed slowly and keep your excitement in check. Be careful, think safety first. Be certain your plane is secured so that it can't get away from you if the engine starts and the throttle is inadvertently advanced somehow. You should get assistance, the neighbor who flys, to just keep an eye on you as you learn these new things. Minimize and mitigate any chance of injury to yourself or others in your learning process. Aside from that, welcome to the wonderful world of RC modeling!
hQQk
Old 04-23-2015, 12:41 PM
  #52  
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A plane can "fly" with an over powered engine but it will be nose heavy, meaning you will have to keep the speed up to land it. If you add weight in the tail to properly balance the plane, it will be even heavier meaning you will have to keep the speed up even more to land it. Pulling power off of a nose heavy plane will result in the plane losing altitude more quickly than you would like meaning you have to land faster than you would like. A properly balanced airplane will slow down to a walk on landing, making it much easier and a lot less expensive.

If we're talking about that Tiger 60, it is a very good airplane, but not a trainer. It flies very well with the proper engine, comparable to a Sig Four Star 60, and a .91 four stroke is perfect for the plane. A good .60 to .75 two stroke would be good for the airplane also.

A twelve inch prop on the Saito 1.50 will result in the engine over revving badly, not a good thing for the engine. I implore you not to try to fly a Tiger 60 with a Saito 1.50 engine. It will be more trouble that it's worth. Fly it with a proper size engine so that it balances correctly and when you pull off power, the nose just slightly sinks, enabling you to have a good approach.

You will be doing yourself a huge favor to get with your neighbor who is an accomplished flier before attempting to fly that Tiger. It will save you many heartaches as well as bundles of money.

That Saito 1.5o should have at least a 16 inch prop on it, maybe even as much as an 18 or 19. Don't make problems for yourself.
Old 04-23-2015, 02:46 PM
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One more thing for you to consider. Since you mentioned swapping glow plugs around, be aware that, while they look virtually identical, the glow plugs for 2-stroke engines (your OS MAX .60FP) and 4-stroke engines (your Saitos) are different and the engines won't run properly with the incorrect plug. Since they look the same and have the same threads, you may have now inadvertently put a 2-stroke plug (usually an OS-8) in the Saito which should have an OS-F plug or the equivalent. Are you pretty sure you still have the original plug in the engine?
Old 04-23-2015, 03:57 PM
  #54  
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NO, the original plug doesn't light. I have a couple others, but I don't know if they are 2 or 4 stroke. I have been trying to start it now and it really seems to me there is no fuel getting in there. I just cant see it well enough. If I take the fuel line off and plug the muffler and turn the prop, every rotation a little fuel squirts through, but when I put it back on the engine, I just cant see if any is going through or not. The plug is lit up very bright, throttle is open, carb was cleaned out....how do you generate the suction to get fuel in there. Because the carb is on the bottom of the plane, I cant plug the intake valve...its inside the fuselage. The plug that's in there is the one that started it for a few seconds last night. I don't know how to tell difference with plugs.
Old 04-23-2015, 04:04 PM
  #55  
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Unfortunately I've had lots of experience with stuck, gummed up carburetors. Safest way to fix them is to soak them a day or 2 in fuel or rubbing alcohol. I like that guy's idea of boiling the carb but I've never done it. I have used a propane torch but that is dangerous. Will melt hidden plastic or rubber parts and ruin the carb. I have tried a big electric soldering iron, but it didn't work for me.

You said one carb was broken. That the arm moves but not the barrel. Very common. You can't tighten the arm tight enough to turn a stuck barrel, especially a plastic arm. So the carb isn't broken, just a stuck barrel.

Good luck!
Old 04-23-2015, 06:11 PM
  #56  
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Along the edge of your glow plug you should be able to see a little F indicateing that it is a four stroke plug . Sometimes turning your needle open a wee bit more will help it start . Also if you are flooded pull your plug and spin the enging over with the starter . If fuel sprays out it was flooded . If not opening the needle a bit might help .
Old 04-23-2015, 06:38 PM
  #57  
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Okay guys....some good news. After many hours of soaking I got the barrel in the OS 60 carb to turn. My neighbor actually came over too...the OS REALLY wanted to start...and compression good but REALLY stiff and it just didn't feel right. So since it was just a 2 stroke, I took it completely apart and cleaned it and now it feels REALLY good, I have high hopes for it starting tomorrow.

As for the Saito...which he said it looks like a 90 or 120, he thinks its a fuel flow issues...so I am going to go ahead and soak that one over night is some fuel. So after soaking, do they need ANY type of lubrication of any kind or is all that in the fuel, because the 2 stroke looked like it had oil in the crankcase, (is that what old gummed up fuel looks like...brownish?) If the whole engine gets filled with fuel for cleaning, I was just wondering if it would need some sort of the lubrication.

Last edited by erwabo; 04-23-2015 at 07:22 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:19 PM
  #58  
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I've had a lot of experience with stuck carbs too, and with plastic throttle arms that loosen and won't turn the carb. When I say that you can tighten down the arm, loosen the carb with a heat gun, and the arm will move the carb, I am not guessing. I've done it too many times to count.

Originally Posted by wnewbury
Unfortunately I've had lots of experience with stuck, gummed up carburetors. Safest way to fix them is to soak them a day or 2 in fuel or rubbing alcohol. I like that guy's idea of boiling the carb but I've never done it. I have used a propane torch but that is dangerous. Will melt hidden plastic or rubber parts and ruin the carb. I have tried a big electric soldering iron, but it didn't work for me.

You said one carb was broken. That the arm moves but not the barrel. Very common. You can't tighten the arm tight enough to turn a stuck barrel, especially a plastic arm. So the carb isn't broken, just a stuck barrel.

Good luck!
Old 04-23-2015, 07:40 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by JollyPopper
A plane can "fly" with an over powered engine but it will be nose heavy, meaning you will have to keep the speed up to land it. If you add weight in the tail to properly balance the plane, it will be even heavier meaning you will have to keep the speed up even more to land it. Pulling power off of a nose heavy plane will result in the plane losing altitude more quickly than you would like meaning you have to land faster than you would like. A properly balanced airplane will slow down to a walk on landing, making it much easier and a lot less expensive.

If we're talking about that Tiger 60, it is a very good airplane, but not a trainer. It flies very well with the proper engine, comparable to a Sig Four Star 60, and a .91 four stroke is perfect for the plane. A good .60 to .75 two stroke would be good for the airplane also.

A twelve inch prop on the Saito 1.50 will result in the engine over revving badly, not a good thing for the engine. I implore you not to try to fly a Tiger 60 with a Saito 1.50 engine. It will be more trouble that it's worth. Fly it with a proper size engine so that it balances correctly and when you pull off power, the nose just slightly sinks, enabling you to have a good approach.

You will be doing yourself a huge favor to get with your neighbor who is an accomplished flier before attempting to fly that Tiger. It will save you many heartaches as well as bundles of money.

That Saito 1.5o should have at least a 16 inch prop on it, maybe even as much as an 18 or 19. Don't make problems for yourself.
I think it may be a 91...I am removing it from the plane tomorrow to soak it, I had it out earlier but forgot to look
Old 04-24-2015, 02:15 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by erwabo
....how do you generate the suction to get fuel in there.
You can generate the suction by using your thumb to block the end of the muffler while you turn the prop over. This is a standard way to prime a stubborn engine in order to get it to kick over. WITHOUT the glow plug igniter attached, block the muffler and turn the prop over by hand 4 or 5 times. Then apply the igniter and try to start. You can also do this (VERY CAREFULLY) with the igniter on and while applying the electric starter but don't block the muffler continuously. Just kind of pulse it. Block it for very short intervals (about 1 second) while the starter is spinning the prop. You can over do this and flood the engine. Best to have a second person do this from behind the plane so no one is reaching over the spinning propellor.
Old 04-24-2015, 05:43 AM
  #61  
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So I confirmed the Saito engine is an FA-91, but as many of you wise men have said...its in need of cleaning. ITs pretty gummed up and dirty, so before I do much else Im going to get these back to a factory shine and try from there.

Another thing I discovered last night on the OS Max 60. When we started with it, it had REALLY good compression and a nice rotation, then it started to stick on the down stroke, almost like the prop shaft was getting caught and it was REALLY stiff. I took the whole engine apart and dumped about a tablespoon of old fuel out of the engine and jsut started really working the shaft to free it up and it felt great. This morning after sitting all night, it almost feels like a it "sticks" twice. The first time its nothing, and the 2nd time is the normal compression and I can hear and see the piston moving. Could that have still been a result of being sticky fuel causing that, I dont want to try and start the engine if there is any danger. Is it at all possible to have cranked the prop and then somehow screwed up the timing or tolerances in a 2 stroke engine?

Thanks again to everyone for all your help for a new guy. Its been a great learning experience and Im actually really enjoying working on these engines. It will be quite rewarding when I get one started.
Old 04-24-2015, 07:01 AM
  #62  
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Two stroke engines ( dependinding on type ) will get very tight at the top of the stroke . This is normal .You will often hear a click .
Old 04-24-2015, 07:37 AM
  #63  
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Ahh okay...yes, I was hearing that click...and didnt know if that was expected or not, cuz there wasn't a click and then there was then there wasn't...good to know
Old 04-24-2015, 07:45 AM
  #64  
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A Tiger 60 is a fantastic plane I have Two of them One I have been flying for three years that has a OS 75AX on it an one that I built over the winter that hasent been flowen yet . It has a OS 95AX on it . Tigers are not really a beginner plane but more of a second low wing trainer . However they are very easy to fly . Someone mentioned the importance of using caution around your prop once you get your engine started . I second that . Don't let the excitment of things get in the way of saftey . The prop becomes invisable and it is very easy to accidently pass your hand thru with out thinking or if the plane is not properly teathered when it starts it can leap forward . Also it is easy to accidently bump your throttle stick from low to wide open .. It is very important to be carefull .This hobby is very fun but it is also very dangerous .
Old 04-24-2015, 09:12 AM
  #65  
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Yes Ill probably getting a foam RTF before flying these balsa wood ones, I dont want to wreck them out of the gate and I want to learn much more about the engines. I called the place in California to get heli coil replaced on the FA-91 and it was only $35.00. Great deal. The guy at hobby shop told me to toss the engine because it will cost more than its worth and give me too much trouble. Ill risk the $35.00 vs $325.00 for a new one. I also need a new Throttle Barrel Assembly because the linkage clip is missing the little snap ring that holds it in place. So assuming the inside of the engine is in decent shape, it just might be salvageable.

I found out that different glow plugs have different threads... so yeah didnt know that, so that confirmes that I put the wrong type in there and cross threaded it

Good times

Last edited by erwabo; 04-24-2015 at 11:51 AM.
Old 04-24-2015, 09:50 AM
  #66  
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Erwabo,

welcome to this wonderful and sometimes frustrating, yet very addicting hobby!!

When the guy at the hobby shop told you to "just toss that engine, it not worth fixing" what he really meant was "You need to buy a new engine from me!".. I am not sure that I would patronize any business that suggests "tossing out" an engine, especially one that is of the pedigree level of a Saito...

You are getting very good information from the others here on RCU, so just keep asking questions, and you will continue to get quality advice!!! I do want to re iterate what has been said several times, because its so very important....... Be very careful, those props can bite you very quickly, and they can bite hard!! Those spinning props are invisible!!

On a silly note, for some reason, the title of your thread "Glow plugs and Older Engines" sounds like it would make a great title for a Country Song!! ;-)


Craig.

Last edited by SeaJay; 04-24-2015 at 09:54 AM.
Old 04-24-2015, 10:10 AM
  #67  
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Yeah well the guy I normally work with there is ACTUALLY a flyer, I think this guy is an RC Car guy so I dont think he has the experience, he just knows how to sell the components. He was kind enough to look up the proper glow plugs for me and recommend some planes for my OS 35s. To his credit he didnt try to sell me a new engine, he just said as a newbie it wont be worth it to try and get it working

And yes that would be a good country song

Last edited by erwabo; 04-24-2015 at 10:40 AM.
Old 04-24-2015, 11:50 AM
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I agree with the title of the thread sounding like a great country song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 04-24-2015, 12:08 PM
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You made out on the Futaba 8U. It's regarded as one of the best transmitters Futaba ever made. The great
thing is that Futaba offers a 2.4 FASST module for it.
Old 04-24-2015, 12:38 PM
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I have been in this hobby for 30 plus years and I did not know that glow plugs have different threads . I am not so sure about that . I am going to have to check that out before I believe it . I have both four stroke and two stroke plugs and I am going to check this out . Okay what I see is the Four stroke plug threads are the same but the threads only go part way down the plug . The last 1/16 of an inch has no threads . the four stroke plugs have no idle bar . So if you were putting a two stroke plug in to a four stroke engine it might only go so far before becomeing tight but not sealed . then it might try to cut threads lower down in the head where there is not supposto be threads and when you back it out it may ruin the upper threads. You could probably get away with putting a four stroke plug in two stroke moter but not the other way around .. I am glad you pointed that out . I learned something new today and from a newby ..Thankyou .
Old 04-24-2015, 12:56 PM
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I'm sure that's right, glow plugs come in different lengths, but not with different threads. What engine does not use 1/4-32 threads? Maybe something made in 1949?
Old 04-24-2015, 01:03 PM
  #72  
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I noticed the club close to you doesn't open for a while but it really would be worth it to just wait until you had some hands on help. Most of us would have those old engines running in no time if we had them in our shops. We have the items on hand that may be needed, simple things like heat guns and pumps to flush the carbs and know how to do it. As nasty as they look on the outside a lifter could be sticking or just a crud clog in the spray bar. I have a box of old and new glow plugs on hand for both two and four strokes, most of us do. I'm betting it's just something simple that someone in the know would spot right away.
If you know the name of the club you can look up the officers and give them a call to see if anyone in your area would help you out. I just got a call yesterday from a pilot new to the area and we are getting together so I can show him around to all the LHS and fields.
Old 04-24-2015, 02:11 PM
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erwabo, Gray Beard is one of the really good guys in the hobby. If you lived close to him, he would have you up and going in minutes. And the good part is: there are many, many others in this hobby who would also be willing and able to get you going quickly. Most are not as knowledgeable as Gene, but they could get you going anyway. Look up some of the people in the club near you and talk to them. I would be willing to bet big money that somebody would be there very quickly to help.
Old 04-24-2015, 03:20 PM
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Yeah I hear ya! Hands on help is best. Well I put the OS 60 all back together, and put in a new glow plug and within a minute I got it started...BUT, it wont stay started...its like the gas wont keep feeding into it. IT runs nice though when it comes on. I have got it started about 10 times. It got going pretty good one time and I thought it was gonna stay but the it sputtered out. I was so excited LOL. Gas lines seems clean and engine is really clean now. I can blow in one end of the fuel line and it comes flowing out the other in a nice stream so its got good lines, but it just doesn't seem to keep suction into the carb. I had it about 1/4 to 1/2 open and 1.5 to 2.5 turns on the needle...sooooo close guys =)
Old 04-24-2015, 03:36 PM
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SUCCESS!!!!!!! YEAH BABY!!!! Man that feels good!!!!! Tomorrow I tackle the Big Boy!!!! THANKS EVERYONE....I feel so accomplished LOL

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