View Poll Results: Second Plane
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll
Best Second Plane
12-23-2016, 06:45 AM
#76
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From all the things that have to be done to the VMAR plane to make it flyable, the Great Planes Big Stick at $159 is starting to look like a pretty good value. I'm seeing a good $30 in replacing substandard hardware from the description above, and from the sound of it the covering is not so good. So figure in another $35 worth of Monokote or Ultracote plus your time to recover it. Plus it's sized properly for a standard ball bearing .46-.60 engine.
12-23-2016, 05:38 PM
#80
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12-23-2016, 10:04 PM
#81
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Well back in the 70's Ugly Sticks were commonly referred to as "aileron trainers" as they were often a learning pilots first 4 channel plane. So absolutely, a beginning pilot can train on an Ugly Stick, In fact, I have a vintage one in the garage that I plan to use for exactly that purpose.
But the fact that it's a good trainer doesn't mean it isn't a good plane to progress on. What makes it a good trainer is that it's aerodynamically dear near perfect for being pilot friendly. It's lightly loaded, doesn't have any significant couplings, handles wind incredibly well, has a huge flight speed envelope, and takes off and lands easier than any trainer ever did. It really is the perfect second plane if one's goal is to build piloting skill. Set it up a touch nose heavy for incredible stability in the wind and very predictable gliding, and move the CG back when you are ready to push the limits and be a little wild.There's just nothing not to like about a well built and properly set up Ugly Stick.
If you get one of the ARF planes, I'll toss this out there to you, Skyflier. Get some finishing resin for fuel proofing. You can use your regular epoxy thinned with alcohol if you want, but finishing resin will cure more reliably when you apply it as paint. Put a coat on the firewall before you mount the engine, including the holes where the blind nuts go for the engine mount. Also fuel proof the area where the tank goes. Hopefully that won't ever get fuel soaked, but it only takes one damaged fuel line or split tank to do it. I'll say paint everything forward of the wing mount with a thin coat resin to be safe. If you move your landing gear forward you'll be in there anyway, so it's not a big chore. Also, beef up that landing gear mount. IIRC, the Great Planes stick has the gear mount sitting in notches in the plywood fuselage sides. That design is only as strong as the wood fibers of the mount plate, which really isn't strong enough. So when you move the plane create that mount and then add hardwood pieces going up the fuselage sides that are expoxied onto the fuselage sides and also the gear block. That doubles your gluing area and improves the strength of your gear block substantially. It may increase the strength more to put a screw in from the bottom into those reinforcements at the front on both sides since all the stress will be pushing the gear backwards. You could also fiberglass it in if you are so inclined. But several decades of experience has shown that the block reinforcement makes it strong enough provided that you don't use an overly stiff landing gear.
But the fact that it's a good trainer doesn't mean it isn't a good plane to progress on. What makes it a good trainer is that it's aerodynamically dear near perfect for being pilot friendly. It's lightly loaded, doesn't have any significant couplings, handles wind incredibly well, has a huge flight speed envelope, and takes off and lands easier than any trainer ever did. It really is the perfect second plane if one's goal is to build piloting skill. Set it up a touch nose heavy for incredible stability in the wind and very predictable gliding, and move the CG back when you are ready to push the limits and be a little wild.There's just nothing not to like about a well built and properly set up Ugly Stick.
If you get one of the ARF planes, I'll toss this out there to you, Skyflier. Get some finishing resin for fuel proofing. You can use your regular epoxy thinned with alcohol if you want, but finishing resin will cure more reliably when you apply it as paint. Put a coat on the firewall before you mount the engine, including the holes where the blind nuts go for the engine mount. Also fuel proof the area where the tank goes. Hopefully that won't ever get fuel soaked, but it only takes one damaged fuel line or split tank to do it. I'll say paint everything forward of the wing mount with a thin coat resin to be safe. If you move your landing gear forward you'll be in there anyway, so it's not a big chore. Also, beef up that landing gear mount. IIRC, the Great Planes stick has the gear mount sitting in notches in the plywood fuselage sides. That design is only as strong as the wood fibers of the mount plate, which really isn't strong enough. So when you move the plane create that mount and then add hardwood pieces going up the fuselage sides that are expoxied onto the fuselage sides and also the gear block. That doubles your gluing area and improves the strength of your gear block substantially. It may increase the strength more to put a screw in from the bottom into those reinforcements at the front on both sides since all the stress will be pushing the gear backwards. You could also fiberglass it in if you are so inclined. But several decades of experience has shown that the block reinforcement makes it strong enough provided that you don't use an overly stiff landing gear.
12-23-2016, 11:03 PM
#82
My Feedback: (3)
Good post, like the history. I had a Jensen Das Stick, thought that was one of the first? Wished I still had it, probably collectible now. I had a fuel tank give me a fuel bath once, I learned to finish resin for all my kits and ARFs, no exception. It is well worth the added oz. or two to the plane and gives it more longevity. I drill a hole under the tank compartment so the fuel will drain out rather than carry back over the next bulkhead. The drain hole gives me fast warning that I got a problem especially an indication to stop refueling!
12-24-2016, 08:17 AM
#83
Moderator
Oh yeah, I forgot about drilling a hole under the tank. I do that too.
Another durability tip I'll offer, and I consider this a must do with any film covered plane, is after tightening the covering with an iron I wick thin CA along all the seams. Yes, I know the adhesive for good covering is strong and completely fuel proof. However, oil creeps its way into the tiniest of microscopic openings and over time will lift those seams. I'm sure thermal cycling, humidity changes and vibration play a role there too. But if you will wet all of the seams with CA and let it cure on its own (no kicker), it will seal up all those microscopic fail points and will definitely make your covering job last longer. There are few things worse than having the covering come off of the horizontal stab in flight then pulling it off to find oil saturated wood on a model you truly love to fly.
Another durability tip I'll offer, and I consider this a must do with any film covered plane, is after tightening the covering with an iron I wick thin CA along all the seams. Yes, I know the adhesive for good covering is strong and completely fuel proof. However, oil creeps its way into the tiniest of microscopic openings and over time will lift those seams. I'm sure thermal cycling, humidity changes and vibration play a role there too. But if you will wet all of the seams with CA and let it cure on its own (no kicker), it will seal up all those microscopic fail points and will definitely make your covering job last longer. There are few things worse than having the covering come off of the horizontal stab in flight then pulling it off to find oil saturated wood on a model you truly love to fly.
12-24-2016, 09:40 AM
#84
My Feedback: (1)
Speaking of fuel proofing and leaking fuel tanks..........here's my story. About 10-12 years ago I had my Sig Rascal 40 ARF at the flying field and started to fuel it up for it's first flight of the day. Had the fill line hooked up to my electric fuel pump, had the vent line attached to a catch bottle so I can see when it's full and not make a mess, standard fueling procedure for me. So I hit the fuel pump on button and stand up to have a coke and chat while it's fueling itself. It was sure taking a long time to fill up and when I looked down at the Rascal I could check the fuel level by looking at the transparent red covering in the rear fuselage area! Yea, it was about half full. The fuselage was about half full! A nice fuel level line was clearly visible thru the semi clear covering. Oh s#*% ! There was a quart or two of fuel sloshing around inside the the fuselage. I quickly removed the wing and poured the "extra " couple of quarts of fuel out thru the wing opening. What a mess. The servos, the RX, the battery foam, and of course all the interior wood were soaked with fuel. In short order I was on my way home where I stripped all the bits and pieces out of the fuselage (RX, servos, wiring, pilot, and of course the bad fuel tank). I then filled, and I mean filled, the fuselage with kitty liter type oil soak particles. A trick I learned in my race car building days was to crush the oil soak grains into a powder for maximum absorption potential. I let the powered oil soak do it job for about 3 weeks, I stirred it around a few times in there, added new powered oil soak and was able to save the airframe. The firewall was sealed with epoxy but the inside tank area had not been done. The long term result is that the plane stills flys today with all of it's original covering intact. All of the original electrics, RX and servos, were immediately opened, cleaned with alcohol, allowed to dry and were reused in the Rascal. No amount of inside fuel proofing could have saved me that day but quick action and having a plan of attack solved the problem. I'am sure that I didn't get 100% of the fuel out of the wood but I got enough that the Rascal is still serviceable and flying. Bottom line is that inside fuel leaks will happen, so fuel proof as much as you can and have a plan to clean up the mess when it happens, because it will happen.
Last edited by 52larry52; 12-24-2016 at 06:47 PM. Reason: spelling error
12-24-2016, 12:59 PM
#85
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Good points about fuel proofing. But the GP Big Stik does not have a removable hatch so it would be nearly impossible to fuel proof with epoxy. I really like having a removable hatch.
12-24-2016, 01:54 PM
#86
My Feedback: (3)
You can take an X-acto and ruler to make a hatch on this model. With a layer of wood or popsicle stick glued to the inside edges making a lip for the lid to lay on, and you can screw it down or fasten it with a release mechanism like this. http://ecsvr.com/abm/ShopDisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes Tower has some cheap $50-60 kits you can build to gain experience with making modifications. But the easy way before you assemble the ARF, from the wing saddle you can use epoxy brushes to work in the finishing resin. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXE269&P=7
12-27-2016, 06:37 PM
#87
My Feedback: (1)
Well, Big Brown delivered my Tower order today. I was successful in getting the new Tower J-3 Cub ARF box into the shop undetected by my wife who as you may remember doesn't believe "there is no such thing as too many Cubs"!
I did a partial unpacking to see what I got for my bargain price and am quite pleased with what I see. I already have two of the earlier, cloth covered, 1/5th scale Great Planes J-3 Cubs that this ARF is based on. The new Tower ARF is covered with what looks like Ultracote Cub Yellow, and all the bits and pieces look just like what was supplied in the Great Planes version (less the cloth covering). It even still has several of the Great Planes logo stickers in the decal sheet. The decal sheet is revised in that the side lighting bolts are now one piece full length lighting bolts where the older ones were two piece so that is improved. The covering job looks very good, the general construction looks as good as the old GP Cub, it's well packed (no damage), and I am sure it will be just as good a flyer. Unlike the GP Cub, this one came in a plain white box with no artwork or anything on it, just plain white cardboard. Nothing wrong with that, just an interesting change. I will not be building this one soon as there are many other projects in line ahead of it. It's a "spare". Just thought I would give a little feedback on what I thought of the new Tower J-3. The sale price is now gone and it is back up to $179.99. Well even at full price I would say it's a bargain in the 1/5th scale Cub ARF market and anyone shopping for a Cub this size won't go wrong with it. My old GP J-3 Cubs are great flyers and this one will also be a keeper.
I did a partial unpacking to see what I got for my bargain price and am quite pleased with what I see. I already have two of the earlier, cloth covered, 1/5th scale Great Planes J-3 Cubs that this ARF is based on. The new Tower ARF is covered with what looks like Ultracote Cub Yellow, and all the bits and pieces look just like what was supplied in the Great Planes version (less the cloth covering). It even still has several of the Great Planes logo stickers in the decal sheet. The decal sheet is revised in that the side lighting bolts are now one piece full length lighting bolts where the older ones were two piece so that is improved. The covering job looks very good, the general construction looks as good as the old GP Cub, it's well packed (no damage), and I am sure it will be just as good a flyer. Unlike the GP Cub, this one came in a plain white box with no artwork or anything on it, just plain white cardboard. Nothing wrong with that, just an interesting change. I will not be building this one soon as there are many other projects in line ahead of it. It's a "spare". Just thought I would give a little feedback on what I thought of the new Tower J-3. The sale price is now gone and it is back up to $179.99. Well even at full price I would say it's a bargain in the 1/5th scale Cub ARF market and anyone shopping for a Cub this size won't go wrong with it. My old GP J-3 Cubs are great flyers and this one will also be a keeper.
Last edited by 52larry52; 12-28-2016 at 01:52 PM.
12-28-2016, 12:01 PM
#88
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52Larry here is a good write up on the tower J-3 Cub. This poster used to write for R/C Report, one of the best RC mags there ever was.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...w#post32170938
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...w#post32170938
12-28-2016, 02:21 PM
#89
My Feedback: (1)
Thanks ratshooter , Yea that's a good review and I do agree with you about R/C Reports. Sadly the're history. The Cub ARF has been placed in line, a long line, in my stash. Right now I am working on a small Phoenix Stinson ARF, then I will finish The CG Cub kit on floats I built this past fall, then I have a 1/4 scale L-19 to do, then an 81" CG Stinson ARF, then an Edge 540, then a T-28, then a half built Balsa USA biplane, then a ....................................., and somewhere in there the Tower Cub !
01-05-2017, 10:26 AM
#90
List continues:
Covering is baggy and doesn't react like Monokote, it doesn't stick to the wood, it's like Saran wrap. You put it in the truck with tight covering and while it sits outside in the sun at the field, it becomes baggy.
The engine mount already has blind nuts behind the firewall, and the width fits a FX25 or LA40. I found a HP Gold Cup was a perfect fit like my SIG Fazer. FX/AX46 guys, it's a slow down to do the mod, an adjustable mount from Great Planes would help. But if you keep buying things to overcome the shortcomings, where is the value? The wing halves thumbscrew to the sides of the fuselage. Manual goes to an earlier version, I think I got it right.
Wheels are off center, toss them, use Dubro. Spinner needs to be tossed too. All the connector that attach the pushrods to the servo horns do not fit, order a bag of quick connectors from Tower or get out your Z bend pliers, the pushrod will bend 90 nicely, NOT pushrods from Airborne Models, they will crack.
Hatch covers are very thin and crack. Many slits in the fuselage planking is gutted like an EP model. The fuselage length is 4" shorter than a Big Stick 40, yet the wingspan is about the same. Exponential is your friend on elevator.
Nothing keeps the fuel tank in place but a velcro strap, but once you throw together a few ARFs or kits, you know to brace it with popsicle sticks. The fuel tank went together better than Great Planes ARF tanks do. I had to trim the fuselage so the tailset would lay 0 degrees horizontal.
6 hour build time as stated.
Under the servo tray is a straight shot to the landing gear block. You have to install that tray, so step 1 would be to convert it to a taildragger. I'm considering right now doing same.
Covering is baggy and doesn't react like Monokote, it doesn't stick to the wood, it's like Saran wrap. You put it in the truck with tight covering and while it sits outside in the sun at the field, it becomes baggy.
The engine mount already has blind nuts behind the firewall, and the width fits a FX25 or LA40. I found a HP Gold Cup was a perfect fit like my SIG Fazer. FX/AX46 guys, it's a slow down to do the mod, an adjustable mount from Great Planes would help. But if you keep buying things to overcome the shortcomings, where is the value? The wing halves thumbscrew to the sides of the fuselage. Manual goes to an earlier version, I think I got it right.
Wheels are off center, toss them, use Dubro. Spinner needs to be tossed too. All the connector that attach the pushrods to the servo horns do not fit, order a bag of quick connectors from Tower or get out your Z bend pliers, the pushrod will bend 90 nicely, NOT pushrods from Airborne Models, they will crack.
Hatch covers are very thin and crack. Many slits in the fuselage planking is gutted like an EP model. The fuselage length is 4" shorter than a Big Stick 40, yet the wingspan is about the same. Exponential is your friend on elevator.
Nothing keeps the fuel tank in place but a velcro strap, but once you throw together a few ARFs or kits, you know to brace it with popsicle sticks. The fuel tank went together better than Great Planes ARF tanks do. I had to trim the fuselage so the tailset would lay 0 degrees horizontal.
6 hour build time as stated.
Under the servo tray is a straight shot to the landing gear block. You have to install that tray, so step 1 would be to convert it to a taildragger. I'm considering right now doing same.
01-05-2017, 04:50 PM
#91
Just an update. The significant other got me the Hangar 9 Piper Cub 40. Looks like a great ARF, and I wanted her to pick something. Makes sense she knows heirs to Piper. Now I would have been completely satisfied with a Tower Big Stick, but Cubs are cool. 80 inch wingspan, I'm going to have a big yellow scale airplane. Now to me, Big Sticks look like Eindeckers, OK squint real hard. But don't you think that's the charm of Big Sticks?
01-05-2017, 06:21 PM
#92
You will need to have some flying experience to fly a large cub
I would say you need to be at an intermediate flying level
A lot of rudder is required to fly it
All beginners need to start with a trainner airplane and find an instructor at a local field
The 60 size stik is a wonderful second plane
See what your trainner person likes to fly to teach his students
He can help you with the build as well as he will inspect any plane he is about to fly to be sure it is airworthy and then fly it if it is
You can make a good friend and learn to fly keeping down you expense of damaging expensive planes
The hobby is not for everyone but if you take to it it has a great number of directions you can take it and have a lot of good fun to keep you out of trouble
Enjoy
I would say you need to be at an intermediate flying level
A lot of rudder is required to fly it
All beginners need to start with a trainner airplane and find an instructor at a local field
The 60 size stik is a wonderful second plane
See what your trainner person likes to fly to teach his students
He can help you with the build as well as he will inspect any plane he is about to fly to be sure it is airworthy and then fly it if it is
You can make a good friend and learn to fly keeping down you expense of damaging expensive planes
The hobby is not for everyone but if you take to it it has a great number of directions you can take it and have a lot of good fun to keep you out of trouble
Enjoy
01-07-2017, 09:05 AM
#96
Moderator
I've had that Hangar 9 Cub for about 5 years now. It's had a rough life- several significant rebuilds and a full recover. I did it up in Solartex last time and painted on all of the trim. That was 3 years ago, and I haven't touched it with an iron since. If you'll set up the main gear with just a touch of toe in and make sure the angles are the same on both sides, ground handling isn't bad at all. Mine has a Saito .72 which is perfect for it. I flew it with a .46 2 stroke before, and it wasn't nearly as good.
01-07-2017, 01:14 PM
#97
My Feedback: (3)
Received the VStik a few days ago in good condition. It is a quick assembly since since very little work left to finish. The only big job is modifying it to taildragger if the user decides to. The engine mount fits my OS 46SF perfectly. Maybe the OS 46 FX/AX are bigger? So, no work required for engine mounting. Covering is a whole other story....
Yeah the covering, you cut it, it doesn't stick to anything, it's only sticking to itself. Monokote isn't much for a boxy fuselage though.
I sold my RTF V Stick in the photos for $100 locally. I've never been happier. What do you think of the hatch covers? Servo horn connectors?
What exactly makes turning it into a tail dragger a big task? I didn't see any obstacles preventing that from being easy;
Epoxy in some plywood, drill some holes, move the gear forward, and add a rear skid.
Last edited by J330; 01-07-2017 at 01:24 PM.
