Beginners Beginners in RC start here for help.

Question about turning in banking

Reply

Old 02-18-2019, 07:35 AM
  #1  
obrien135
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: , CT
Posts: 65
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Question about turning in banking

Do you have to give a plane right rudder to make a left banking turn and left rudder when making a right turn or do you just use up elevator to keep it from going into a dive?

Last edited by obrien135; 02-18-2019 at 10:08 AM.
obrien135 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 08:11 AM
  #2  
Top_Gunn
My Feedback: (6)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Granger, IN
Posts: 1,922
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Up elevator. Sometimes a little left rudder will help, too. Do not use right rudder when making a left turn.
Top_Gunn is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 04:53 PM
  #3  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

What the rudder does, when used in a turn, is not what common sense says it does. Turn the front tires on a car, that vehicle changes direction. In the case of an airplane, however, it's the ailerons that actually turn the plane by changing the direction of lift. The problem comes in with the drag added by using the ailerons. An aileron that goes up adds little drag since it's partially masked by the thickness of the wing and the higher speed of the air over the top of the wing. An aileron that goes down, on the other hand, adds a considerable amount of drag since it drops further into the air flow under the wing. Since the aileron that drops is on the outside of the turn, the plane will try to turn in the opposite direction due to the drag. The rudder is used to offset that "inverse" drag to "help" the plane turn in the desired direction. To use the rudder alone, to try to change the plane's direction, will result in the plane sliding sideways through the air like a car trying to turn on a slick road

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 02-18-2019 at 04:56 PM.
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 06:35 PM
  #4  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Maybe with pattern planes but many R/C planes behave just like full sized planes, in just the way I described. In fact, some full sized planes have the rudder and ailerons "coupled" to lower the work load on the pilot, including some Piper and Cessna models. You move the yoke/stick, the rudder moved along with the ailerons though, if desired, the pilot could override the coupling manually using the rudder pedals at the same time as the stick/yoke
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 06:42 PM
  #5  
j.duncker
My Feedback: (2)
 
j.duncker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sailing in the Eastern Caribbean
Posts: 4,027
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default


I am going to disagree with one of my learned friends above.

It is perfectly possible to make turns with a rudder providing the wing has dihedral.

Many of us old timers started flying radio control with only one channel and that was rudder.

This is one of the most well known small [ almost indestructible ] one channel models the Sharkface designed by Eric Clutton.

There has been a resurgence of interest in flying rudder only models in the UK with the availability of reliable single channel outfits using a single modern servo which mimics the control we had.

I flew my Sharkface with a sequential escapement powered by a long rubber band which had to be wound before ever flight. If the last press was right rudder the next press was left then the next press was right.
j.duncker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2019, 06:56 PM
  #6  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I hope you're not referring to me as my first plane was a Kadet Jr. It was a rudder/elevator/throttle aircraft, with a significant amount of dihedral, 2+ inches of it. In fact, the instructions said to hook the rudder servo to the aileron output on the receiver to teach new pilots to use that channel to turn the plane. IF that is what they were trying to teach new pilots back then, it seems to me that my post about how planes turn is right on target, both in R/C and full sized flying
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2019, 01:58 PM
  #7  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Go back and read my last post. Better yet, I'll just post it again. The Sig three channel trainers teach new pilots to use the right stick to change attitude and direction. That set up is right in the building and set up manual. It doesn't say to use the rudder on the left stick, it says to use it on the aileron channel, meaning the right stick. That being the case, it does point to using ailerons to turn rather than the rudder. It also has the side affect of not teaching new pilots how to use the rudder. If you look at the full size Boeing 727 and 747, they only use a third of their rudder surface area in flight. Unless the plane has issues controlling yaw, the upper 2/3rds of the rudder is basically locked in place. The bottom third is only used to keep the plane from sliding during a turn, something that would be shown by the turn and bank indicator on the dashboard.

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 02-19-2019 at 02:02 PM.
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2019, 06:24 PM
  #8  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Not misleading at all. I'm quoting an R/C trainer's build manual and known operation of several full sized aircraft. Since you fly pattern planes, as you noted when you posted "The Modern crop of pattern airplanes will do a turn or even 360 degree circles using rudder input only with no bank angle", which obviously handle different than a trainer, a Piper or Cessna, I can only assume your knowledge of aeronautical principles is limited to how the R/C planes that you've flown react to control inputs and not accepted ones used in general aviation and three channel trainers
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2019, 08:02 PM
  #9  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I'll tell you what, you can argue with NASA as I'm done with this thread:
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/turns.html
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 07:23 AM
  #10  
jaka
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upplands Vasby, SWEDEN
Posts: 7,775
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hi!
You turn a high or low winged aileron R/C type model by giving aileron and then elevator! No rudder is needed! -Well, for a big 1/4 scale CUB rudder is needed.
jaka is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 06:11 AM
  #11  
j.duncker
My Feedback: (2)
 
j.duncker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sailing in the Eastern Caribbean
Posts: 4,027
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default


Now ask yourselves this. What is a loop but a vertical turn? Now bank the model 90 degrees (knife edge) and do a loop sideways. Maybe a little opposite rudder to hold the nose up?
Since this the beginners forum I think I should warn beginners that your typical trainer will not do knife edge loops. If you have moved on to something a bit sportier it may do a knife edge loop but try the first ones at least 3 mistakes high.

If you have a total hooligan machine like this Morris Hobbies Sledge of mine then it will do vertical knife edge figure of 8s, fly control line circuits with no banking at all and at times totally confound the laws of aerodynamics.
j.duncker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 09:11 AM
  #12  
Hydro Junkie
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 7,474
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Appowner, you may want to have a conversation with your little brother then.
Just couldn't leave me out of the conversation, could you Speed. As I said in my last two posts, I was quoting a NASA document that I even posted a link to and the construction manual for a Sig Kadet JR. If you all still want to argue about everything, argue with Sig and NASA and leave me out of it
Hydro Junkie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 09:46 AM
  #13  
RCKen
RCU Forum Manager/Admin
My Feedback: (9)
 
RCKen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Lawton, OK
Posts: 27,047
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

When you were growing up and during the day you did something wrong and your mom would say "You just wait until your father gets home"? And then when your dad got home it was like the end of the world for you because he won't put up with anything you did.

Well guess what??? Dad is here, and he's not happy with what is going on here in this thread, this sub-forum, and this website/online community. And I'm pretty upset with the 2 members causing all the problems.

If you look back through this thread you will see a lot of posts that have been removed. That is because there were 2 members that were bashing each other in this thread. They have been removed because the attacks these member were doing to each other takes away from the beginner that was trying to get some help in learning to fly. These members may have thought that they were helping new flyer, but what they don't realize that they are actually doing the new flyer no service at all and are probably causing more problems for the new pilot. But I can tell you this, it is going to stop right here and right now. If those involved continue to fight with each other you will first find your ability to post on RCU to be throttled down to the point that we will approve or disapprove any post you make. And if you can't reform yourself then you find that you are on the outside of RCU looking in. I will say that you had better not try my patience here as I will not hesitate if you can't learn to get along with each other. And that isn't limited to the Beginners forum, that includes all of RCU.

Now one last point that I want to clarify here. One person has stated that they have freedom of speech and that gives them the ability to post what they like. I want you to see one part of the RCU Community Rules and what it says on this mattter
MANAGING USER CONTENT:
Members of RCU are solely responsible for all content posted under their account. It is each member's obligation and responsibility to log off at the end of their session to prevent unauthorized use of RCU and account access. There is no expectation of privacy as it relates to the content a member submits and is normally available to the public. RCU also reserves the right to keep all member submitted content archived and available.

RCU shall have the right, but not the obligation, to correct any errors or omissions in any content, as it may determine in its sole discretion. RCU further reserves the right to delete or remove any user content from the site and to deny the access of any member to all or part of this site, at any time for any reason without prior notice or liability.

Thread titles must reflect the full content and be fair to any person or vendor where things have been resolved. Please update the thread title by either adding the word RESOLVED to the title or re-wording the title to better reflect the situation.
Every member agrees to follow these RCU guidelines when they join RCU.

I am sorry that other have had to see this, but that is the problems have to be settled

Ken
RCKen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 09:54 AM
  #14  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,515
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Ken, to make things clear, my comment about freedom of speech was not intended to be taken as I feel I am able to post outside the rules but that I am able to express my opinion without the expectation of being attacked by multiple members.
speedracerntrixie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2019, 09:01 PM
  #15  
jester_s1
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,620
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I'm going to take exception with that statement, speedracerntrixie. While you are very knowledgeable and a true asset on this forum, others have every but as much right to disagree with you as you have to post. It's true that personal attacks and general rudeness aren't allowed on the forum. But neither is baiting, trolling, or otherwise posting things that you know are going to get a rise out of the other guy.
We'd all do well to use our freedom of speech to teach new pilots and generally contribute to the wealth of knowledge that exists in this forum. Bickering is beneath all of us.
jester_s1 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service