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Full Gas Engine kit RTF??

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Old 06-13-2019, 05:07 AM
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ericsfailsafe
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Question Full Gas Engine kit RTF??

I did look but I could not find the answer to the question anywhere…

I am trying to buy a kit that includes everything I need for my first gasoline engine.

Is there something like this available?



I have a decent amount of experience with electric motors but no experience with IC engines.

I'd like to have everything that is necessary to bench test the motor:

-engine

-ignition system

-starter

-fuel tank

-whatever else...





Ideally #1, the engine/setup would be for a specific plane already and I could wait to buy the plane.



And/or



Ideally #2, it would be a fairly low cost engine kit just to teach me about how to setup a gas engine, break it in, etc.





Thanks for your help!!!
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:00 AM
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jester_s1
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When you say gas engine, do you actually mean gasoline as in the large engines for big planes? Or do you mean glow engines which are used on the smaller planes that most of us fly most of the time?

Generally, you choose the plane first and then pick the engine based on what it needs. I'm not aware of any combos that include fuel tanks, because you are supposed to choose the tank that fits your model.

Gassers generally come with at ignition. Most people don't use electric starters with gassers because electronic ignitions make them so easy to hand start.

So my advice would be to choose your plane first, then get the engine and accessories that it needs.
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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ericsfailsafe
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I mean an IC engine that runs on gasoline.
I'm doing that to save money on fuel since I heard it's a big jump to glow/nitro if you're going to be flying very often.

I'd be fine with starting with whatever is cheapest to get a test setup to learn. Then I could upgrade.
Any suggestions for that?

Is this accurate.....for any IC I need:
Engine
Ignition system
Battery for ignition (and other electronics)
fuel tank
Hand pump to fuel tank

.... anything else?
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Old 06-13-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ericsfailsafe View Post
I mean an IC engine that runs on gasoline.
I'm doing that to save money on fuel since I heard it's a big jump to glow/nitro if you're going to be flying very often.

I'd be fine with starting with whatever is cheapest to get a test setup to learn. Then I could upgrade.
Any suggestions for that?

Is this accurate.....for any IC I need:
Engine
Ignition system
Battery for ignition (and other electronics)
fuel tank
Hand pump to fuel tank

.... anything else?
Okay, let's look at what's needed for gas and nitro separately.
Nitro first:
Engine
Fuel(normally 5-15% nitro and 16-20% lubricant, depending on engine requirements)
Glow Plugs
Fuel tank
Nitro compatible fuel line
Glow driver or battery and fitting(a nitro motor is similar to a diesel in this regard, there isn't an ignition system since, once the glow plug is hot, it will stay hot as long as the engine is running)
Fuel pump
Prop
Engine stand
Starter and battery or "chicken stick"

Now let's look at gas engines:
Engine
Prop
Ignition system, if not part of the engine from the facory
Fuel tank
Gas with lubricant mixed in per engine requirements(usually between 16 and 32:1 IIRC)
Gas compatible fuel line
Fuel pump
Engine stand
Starter and battery, "chicken stick" or protective glove

Just to be clear on a couple of things:
The fuel pumps are just to fill the tank, not to feed the carb.
A nitro engine will need "exhaust pressure" to get a constant fuel flow. There is normally a pressure tap on the factory supplied exhaust just for this purpose.
A gas engine, depending on the carb, may have a fuel pump as part of the carb so exhaust pressure may not be needed. This will be normally talked about in the owners manual
Not all gas engines need an ignition battery. I have a CMB 27cc marine engine and it doesn't require one.
A battery pack would be needed for your radio gear, regardless if one is needed for the ignition. IIRC, you really don't want to run the radio and ignition off the same pack as it will drain the pack much quicker than either one will by itself. You will also notice that I added a prop to both lists. You don't want to run an engine without one as:
1) it won't get proper cooling and that will cause damage to your engine
2) the prop works like a flywheel on a car engine, giving the crankshaft more mass to help keep the engine running. It may not run without one or, if it does, it won't run well

I'm sure others will have more to say about this as I don't claim to be an expert

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 06-13-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:25 AM
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To the best of my knowledge there is no currently available " all in one package " gasoline engine powered airplane available. For gasoline engine advise, RCU has a forum specific to gasoline engines. In order to get accurate information I would suggest you post your questions there.

Gas Engines - RCU Forums
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:54 PM
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To the OP- if getting started in the hobby on a tight budget is your goal, you have to think about all of the costs, not just fuel. Yes, it's true that gas is cheaper than glow fuel. However, that may not make it the cheapest option.

You could start with a .40 size trainer and use a 10cc gas engine on it. That engine will cost about $50 more than an equivalent glow engine. It will probably take about a year to recoup the cost in fuel savings.

Also consider club fees and such.

If cost really is the biggest issue, consider some of the smaller electric planes. You can get going with one of those for about 1/2 the cost of a glow powered trainer. Being smaller and lighter, they don't handle the wind as well. But sometimes that's what your budget can handle.

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Old 06-14-2019, 09:15 AM
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I just got to thinking on this as well. One thing you never mentioned is how large of plane you would be looking at putting your engine in to. Jester posted a good idea on the 10cc gas engine being used on a 40 sized trainer. Are you planning on building something, either from a kit or plans, or are you looking at buying an already assembled or used plane? I'm presently working on two Sig Kadet Jrs, being built from plans since Sig has long ago stopped producing this kit.. This is a 20 sized trainer that I'm modifying to meet my requirements. This might be an option for you, to order plans for an airplane and then pick up the parts you will need for your "engine trainer" so that you can install them into that plane when you're ready to go flying. This would give you the time to learn the how and why of the engine you buy and, at the same time, have that engine broken in and ready to install when the plane is ready for it
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:58 PM
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Honestly though, engines are fairly simple these days. If the OP wants to build up his project as he goes due to funds being tight, he definitely should buy his plane first and then everything else once it's built.
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Old 06-16-2019, 12:14 AM
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Your post has how I would do it also. I just threw out another option if he wants to try and learn engines first. A two stroke engine is easy, for you and I anyway, since we've been around them. For someone that's never operated one, it can be a daunting proposition.
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Old 06-16-2019, 09:22 AM
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I tend to suggest beginners with gas engines get their feet with a 20cc. The cost difference between 10cc and 20cc is not that much, the 20cc will have a needle bearing connecting rod so 32:1 can be used, the 10cc will require 16:1 which means more mess. The 20cc will have a stock Walbro carb as opposed to something unique to the engine. Walbro replacement carbs if needed are cheap. The larger airplane will also be much easier to work on. It would be a bit of a challenge to fit all the radio gear, fuel tank, ignition module and seperate ignition battery into a .40 size airplane. While on the subject of ignition batteries, while there is nothing wrong with running a seperate battery, it just is not nessesary. The current ignition modules are no where near as power hungry as they used to be. I would venture that the majority of gasoline power airplanes that are currently flying are running an ignition battery eliminator such as the Tech Aero IBEC. I personally haven't run a seperate ignition battery in over a decade. Gas engines also do not require any break in running. Once the needles are set well enough for the engine to transition from idle to full throttle it is advisable to start flying the engine and tune to what is observed in the air. Bench running will not provide enough cooling and damage can result.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:15 AM
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ericsfailsafe
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Working backwards by picking engine first to try to find lowest price with most thrust for towing power.



I would ideally like to buy an airframe RTF that can structurally support a 30cc engine, a pretty large gas tank (idk size yet), have extra room for avionics and other equipment and be able to tow a plane.

I'm basically trying to make a faily large stable tow plane that I can use an autopilot and possible some other equipment.

Not new to hobby but I am brand new with IC engines.
I've built a fair amount of large electric planes but I realize the energy density of gasoline is a couple magnitudes greater than lipos
I also have a decent amount of experience with autopilots.



Price difference from 10cc to 30cc isn't that great so may as well start there. Considering DLE35ra with something like Ultra Stick 30cc airframe. May need to modify airframe for more room for fuel and equipment.



Big picture, I am trying to setup a tow plane than tow at least 10lbs planes for at least 30mins and then eventually 1hr.

Any thoughts or recommendations? I'm wide open to ideas of course.
Trying to make it as simple, cheap, and easy as possible while meeting those criteria.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:41 AM
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If it was me doing this, I'd start with a set of plans for a Kadet Sr and enlarge them. This would give you a plane that would almost float, be capable of holding a large amount of fuel and be stable doing so. You would obviously have to beef up the structure to handle the load but, other than that, I don't see an issue in making that work. I would also drop the wingtips and add ailerons to give better control and make it a tail dragger. You will need some serious ground clearance to keep from hitting the prop and I wouldn't want a really long nose gear, mostly to prevent it from bending.
With that said, let the flaming begin.
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Old 06-17-2019, 07:14 AM
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I'm curious as to why you would need a duration of an hour and an auto pilot. I have experience with aero tow and neither of those two things are a requirement for recreational aero towing. The goal for a glider tug is to get the sailplanes to altitude, release and get back on the ground as quickly as possible to hook up the next guy. No autopilot nessesary and the additional weight of an oversized fuel tank would reduce climb rate. To be honest here, with you being a new account that haven't disclosed your location and seemingly wanting to do something out of the norm for recreational flying has raised a bit of a red flag for me.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:08 PM
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Default Really?

Why in the world would you want to tow a plane for an hour? Or any amount of time? I'm with Speed on this one- red flag.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:01 AM
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ericsfailsafe
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Come on guys if I had any nefarious plans I wouldn't be posting on the most popular RC thread with questions that could be tied to my email, MAC address, IP, work computer, etc.
Nevertheless, the entirety of the project I'd like to remain somewhat undisclosed.

Thanks for everyone's help. Hopefully, I'll be able to save up enough tokens to get the ball rolling on this sooner than later.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:58 AM
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Actually, we see wannabe (or maybe not) terrorists and criminals on RCU on a regular basis. I'm not accusing you at all, but they ask questions very much like yours and are secretive like you are being. So it's natural for someone to be suspicious.

To answer your question, a Senior Telemaster with a 20cc engine would be just the thing. I'm sure you could put enough fuel tanks in that cavernous fuselage to drag a glider around for an hour if you wanted. And Telemasters are easy to fly and land. That plane is meant for a .60 glow engine, while the 20cc is about twice that. Balance will probably require relocating the servos, flight controller, and flight battery to the back of the plane, which won't be hard to do. That will free up the area around the CG for fuel tanks. The huge wing won't mind the extra loading at all.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:42 AM
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Thanks for the info Jester. Surprised about the regularity of suspicious posts but I underestimate the stupidity of bad people.
Let me note furthermore that this is related to a (legal) startup venture and not anything illegal or wicked.

I've pretty much already done what I am describing with an FMS Beaver, Ardupilot, Scorpion 4035-450, 4x 4s 10Ah batteries (two parallel sets of two in series), and some other customization. I just can't seem to get enough flight time...

That's why I need something more energy dense than lithium like gasoline

A problem I'm finding with all the gas planes is none of them are RTF.....anywhere I can buy an RTF Senior Telemaster or any RTF 30cc rated plane? I see ARF but no RTF....

Last edited by ericsfailsafe; 06-18-2019 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:08 AM
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1. New member.
2. Won't disclose location
3. Wants to remain secretive
4. Wants something complete off the shelf
5. Doing something out of the norm for recreational use.
6. Automation is a requirement
7. Long range is a requirement
8. OP asks his questions in multiple threads.

Sorry there Eric but you are the one who has set yourself up for scrutiny here. You could easily pass down some information here that would put us more at ease. Location would be a big step. End goal would be another.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:57 AM
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Relax guys. I know you're bored but geez......just because I'm asking for privacy in my venture you're labeling me as a possible criminal or terrorist?
I explained that I am pursuing a personal project. I am sorry for you if that has negative connotations.

Not sorry if I don't want to tell you where I live....I mean I guess I should tell every stranger on every internet forum on the internet where I live right?
Nope.

By the way this isn't CSI. If you don't want people to have information they shouldn't have.......good luck shutting down the internet.

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Old 06-18-2019, 08:16 AM
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Not bored, just an American that has a 25 year career building equipment to keep American servicemen safe which includes my youngest son.
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:50 AM
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I don't mean to be flippant just frustrated.
I madly respect our armed forces and all human lives for that matter.
I am the only person in my family not in the military.
Anyways, thanks again for the assistance.
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:30 AM
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Re: your question- ARF's aren't hard to put together. For bigger planes, the cost of shipping a fully assembled model is pretty high. So the ARF route makes sense. They aren't hard to put together. All you have to do on most is glue the tail on, install the landing gear, and install the electronics and power system.
I think you are going the right route with gas. Electric will never match wet power for flight time, in part because your power source is burning off as you go.

For those who are suspicious of the OP- the concerns have been expressed and the OP has responded. His responses are reasonable. It's not like we are giving out some super secret information here. Plenty of people have done long flight time airplanes before with no ill effects. I do understand the concern about autonomous flight and the ways that it can be used for nefarious purposes. But let's not assume bad things automatically. Of course, anyone who isn't comfortable helping the OP can choose not to post in his thread.
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:58 AM
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thanks for the info
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:38 AM
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BTW, auto pilots are currently an FAA Bozo No! No! You could find yourself in a host of trouble if/when caught.

In addition your secret purpose, if commercial in any way quite likely would require FAA Part 107.
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