T-34 Landing HOT
02-21-2005, 09:28 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
tIANci - that's a great point about throttle and elevator. although i've always known it, putting it that was crystalizes why it is that way. by using throttle to control rate of descent and elevator to control speed, you are essentially putting the plane in a nose high attitude. so the key here is to make sure casey knows how to do that.
casey - if you can, really practice crawling around at two mistakes high. really get to know your plane flying at a very slow pattern. you will most likely be a 1/4 throttle and need to hold up elevator throughout the exercise. just make sure that you can recover in case it does stall. if it is too easy reduce the throttle to 1/5. get use to crawling around up there using both throttle and elevator and your landings will be famously smooth and slow.
you said that you've done the high altitude stall test... compared to the stall speed, how fast are you going when you land?
also, i'm surprised no one stated the obvious... are you landing into the wind or with it? If you are landing with the wind, you will come in hot hot hot... :-)
casey - if you can, really practice crawling around at two mistakes high. really get to know your plane flying at a very slow pattern. you will most likely be a 1/4 throttle and need to hold up elevator throughout the exercise. just make sure that you can recover in case it does stall. if it is too easy reduce the throttle to 1/5. get use to crawling around up there using both throttle and elevator and your landings will be famously smooth and slow.
you said that you've done the high altitude stall test... compared to the stall speed, how fast are you going when you land?
also, i'm surprised no one stated the obvious... are you landing into the wind or with it? If you are landing with the wind, you will come in hot hot hot... :-)
02-21-2005, 11:53 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
forestroke - tell you something ... I have never checked on a plane's stall speed, its just something that I know, I know how slow not to get!!! Hehehe ...
02-22-2005, 01:05 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
tIANci - actually i have never done it myself. i mean i do so a slow pattern to see how slow my planes can fly but i doubt i've ever gone to the point where it actually stalled. once i see that i can handle my plane at a speed i like landing at, that's enough. but casey did do it, he should know what speed is safe for his plane.
also, i like to come in conservative the first time and land with a little throttle. from there i can slow it down until i like the speed. on my maidens sometimes i overshoot the runway and have to come around again but that's acceptable to me. touch and goes or go arounds are fun for me and i relish everytime i can do it without anyone going "stay away from the runway!" lol.
nothing is more beautiful than a turn into final approach and a greased landing.
also, i like to come in conservative the first time and land with a little throttle. from there i can slow it down until i like the speed. on my maidens sometimes i overshoot the runway and have to come around again but that's acceptable to me. touch and goes or go arounds are fun for me and i relish everytime i can do it without anyone going "stay away from the runway!" lol.
nothing is more beautiful than a turn into final approach and a greased landing.
02-22-2005, 01:45 AM
#29
RE: T-34 Landing HOT
Forgive me for asking but did i read this right that you've never stalled your airplane?
ORIGINAL: forestroke
tIANci - actually i have never done it myself. i mean i do so a slow pattern to see how slow my planes can fly but i doubt i've ever gone to the point where it actually stalled. once i see that i can handle my plane at a speed i like landing at, that's enough. but casey did do it, he should know what speed is safe for his plane.
also, i like to come in conservative the first time and land with a little throttle. from there i can slow it down until i like the speed. on my maidens sometimes i overshoot the runway and have to come around again but that's acceptable to me. touch and goes or go arounds are fun for me and i relish everytime i can do it without anyone going "stay away from the runway!" lol.
nothing is more beautiful than a turn into final approach and a greased landing.
tIANci - actually i have never done it myself. i mean i do so a slow pattern to see how slow my planes can fly but i doubt i've ever gone to the point where it actually stalled. once i see that i can handle my plane at a speed i like landing at, that's enough. but casey did do it, he should know what speed is safe for his plane.
also, i like to come in conservative the first time and land with a little throttle. from there i can slow it down until i like the speed. on my maidens sometimes i overshoot the runway and have to come around again but that's acceptable to me. touch and goes or go arounds are fun for me and i relish everytime i can do it without anyone going "stay away from the runway!" lol.
nothing is more beautiful than a turn into final approach and a greased landing.
02-22-2005, 04:02 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
camss - well... i have never done a stall test... i have stalled the airplane numerous times for snaps, spins, stall turns and yes... the occasional unsuccessful flair (or rather TOO successful). but i have never stalled it on purpose to see how slow my plane will go. the stalls i do are induced and really not the same as seeing how slow your plane flies. for that you should try to maintain level flight by using a combination of throttle and elevator.
and hey, why are you picking on me? tIANci claimed nearly the same thing! :-p :-)
and hey, why are you picking on me? tIANci claimed nearly the same thing! :-p :-)
02-22-2005, 07:21 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
cams - I have had over 20 planes ... only time I have stalled her is usually on landing at about 2'-4' above the ground, even then its because I am pushing it so its purely my fault. All I can say is that almost any plane that is coming in at a decent speed say about 15 mph will not stall. Of course I have yet to fly pushers/ducted fan/turbines.
Oh yes ... I stalled my first 60 sized plane, thought it would fly like a 40 and I pull a hard snap roll ... the plane went vertically down and no matter how much elevator I put in there was NOTHING! Hehehe ... I learnt well!!!
Oh yes ... I stalled my first 60 sized plane, thought it would fly like a 40 and I pull a hard snap roll ... the plane went vertically down and no matter how much elevator I put in there was NOTHING! Hehehe ... I learnt well!!!
02-22-2005, 09:44 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
I always do an induced stall test (at altitude) on my maiden flight of each plane.........I don't like surprises when it's time for that maiden landing! [X(]
02-22-2005, 09:50 AM
#33
RE: T-34 Landing HOT
I'm not picking on you just seemed an odd statement and I was wondering what you meant by it no harm intended.
I also find it interesting that you've never done a stall test on purpose. The reason for doing it is to find out what happens when your plane stalls, does it drop one wing, or does it drop off strait forward? If it consistantly drops one wing, the same way every time, you may have a warped wing and you may be able to address it and make your plane fly better at all speeds. The main reason however is to be prepared for that day when you get a bit lazy and let your speed get a bit low on final and you stall the plane on landing. At least you will know what to expect.
Anyway you would be amazed at how slow some planes will fly, my extra, which is by no means a "3d" plane I can point into a very slight wind and set the throttle to just a tick above idle, hold full up elevator and it will just ever so slowly maintain altitude while stalling and falling forward and flying and stalling and then flying. It only drops a few feet each time it stalls and I'm able to regain it when it falls forward picks up speed again. The whole process is pretty slow, but it really gives you a feel for flying the plane slow, and you know just how slow it will go. Stalling is no big deal, practice some slow flight, everyone at the field knows how fast their plane will go but very few ever see how slow it will go, so when they get into a slow flying situation it's something new to them.
Again, I didn't mean to pick on anyone....
I also find it interesting that you've never done a stall test on purpose. The reason for doing it is to find out what happens when your plane stalls, does it drop one wing, or does it drop off strait forward? If it consistantly drops one wing, the same way every time, you may have a warped wing and you may be able to address it and make your plane fly better at all speeds. The main reason however is to be prepared for that day when you get a bit lazy and let your speed get a bit low on final and you stall the plane on landing. At least you will know what to expect.
Anyway you would be amazed at how slow some planes will fly, my extra, which is by no means a "3d" plane I can point into a very slight wind and set the throttle to just a tick above idle, hold full up elevator and it will just ever so slowly maintain altitude while stalling and falling forward and flying and stalling and then flying. It only drops a few feet each time it stalls and I'm able to regain it when it falls forward picks up speed again. The whole process is pretty slow, but it really gives you a feel for flying the plane slow, and you know just how slow it will go. Stalling is no big deal, practice some slow flight, everyone at the field knows how fast their plane will go but very few ever see how slow it will go, so when they get into a slow flying situation it's something new to them.
Again, I didn't mean to pick on anyone....
02-22-2005, 11:03 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
camss - come on its only a hobby and forum, we are here to have fun only. Its just that I really do not bother to fly that slow at all unless its a 3D plane like my TT Spirit 3D, she can fly really really slow.
02-22-2005, 11:50 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
For starters I would change your prop to a 2 blade APC 11-5 prop, that would help a lot. The larger prop with the smaller pitch will give the plane a lot more braking effect. As mentioned above, its always a good idea to take it up high and see just slow the stall speed is. Then you will know how much you can slow the plane down without nasty surprizes. With that plane, it will probably be a lot slower than you think. IF it is then you can add in up elevator to slow to get the speed down to where you want it and just hold it there until just before touch down. Then add a little more for the flair and your down.
02-22-2005, 01:05 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
Like some folks have said, control speed with elevator, control sink rate with throttle. Sounds simple. But it is difficult to teach. It is a very common mistake for new pilots to try to glide thier plane on aproach. But gliding does not yeild the slowest possible aproach speed. The slowest aproach speed is yeilded by adding power and raising the nose slightly. By raising the nose slightly, you are raising the angle of attack of the wing. This generates more lift. More lift mean you can fly slower. And more lift means more drag. More drag mean that more thrust is required.
The plane is most likely capable of much slower flight in the hands of an experienced pilot.
Get to a criusing altitude and practice slow flight, ie high angle of attack with the throttle adjusted above idle to maintain level flight.
In time you will get the hang of it and feel comfortable flying the configuration lower and lower. And eventually landing that way. Even a little practice should net you noticable results.
And as far as practicing stalls; practice power on stalls and practice power off stall. One simulates a departure stall, the other more or less simulates the arrival stall or the stall on aproach.
Don't worry. It is very common for a new plane to feel as if it lands too hot. I have been doing this for 25 years. And it still takes me weeks to realize the actual slow flight characteristics of a new plane and to get the aproach speed down to the minimum.
The plane is most likely capable of much slower flight in the hands of an experienced pilot.
Get to a criusing altitude and practice slow flight, ie high angle of attack with the throttle adjusted above idle to maintain level flight.
In time you will get the hang of it and feel comfortable flying the configuration lower and lower. And eventually landing that way. Even a little practice should net you noticable results.
And as far as practicing stalls; practice power on stalls and practice power off stall. One simulates a departure stall, the other more or less simulates the arrival stall or the stall on aproach.
Don't worry. It is very common for a new plane to feel as if it lands too hot. I have been doing this for 25 years. And it still takes me weeks to realize the actual slow flight characteristics of a new plane and to get the aproach speed down to the minimum.
02-22-2005, 03:09 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
Hi!
The first thing one should, do when flying a new airplane for the first time is checking the stallspeed. That is very important!
You do this to know what speed the airplane can tolerate and what happens when that stall occurs... how the airplane reacts to the stall.
You do this stall test to get a feeling to how the airplane feels in the air..if it is tail heavy or if its nose heavy, if it snap rolls over the wing or just mushes forward.
Your T-34 is just a low winged trainer aircraft in semi-scale draping so it should be very easy to land...but everything is relative in this world so if it is heavy or the wing is warped it could be hard to land it. But this is easily fixed.
The first is weight! How much does it weigh? My guessing if it has a .46 engine is that it has a wingspan of ...let say 130-140cm and weights 2,2-2.7kg Over this weight it is a little too heavy.
This is easily fixed by taking away all lead and move the servos and battery forward and make things lighter(wheels, smaller battery, smaller servos etc) also remove as much wood you can in the fueselage...sound strange maybe but this is easily done with a Dremel sanding drum and a wood chisel.
Have you checked the wing ? If you have wash-in, is no good..and should be fixed right away!
Wash-out is good to have though.
A better prop than your 3-blade 10x6 would be a 2-blade 11x5 or maybe a 11,5x4
Better to have a large diameter disc than a corse pitch. That slows the airplane down much better.
also check idle-speed...should be around 2000-2200rpm using a 11x5 prop..or even a little lower.
Then practise ..practise and.....pr
Regards!
Jan K
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The first thing one should, do when flying a new airplane for the first time is checking the stallspeed. That is very important!
You do this to know what speed the airplane can tolerate and what happens when that stall occurs... how the airplane reacts to the stall.
You do this stall test to get a feeling to how the airplane feels in the air..if it is tail heavy or if its nose heavy, if it snap rolls over the wing or just mushes forward.
Your T-34 is just a low winged trainer aircraft in semi-scale draping so it should be very easy to land...but everything is relative in this world so if it is heavy or the wing is warped it could be hard to land it. But this is easily fixed.
The first is weight! How much does it weigh? My guessing if it has a .46 engine is that it has a wingspan of ...let say 130-140cm and weights 2,2-2.7kg Over this weight it is a little too heavy.
This is easily fixed by taking away all lead and move the servos and battery forward and make things lighter(wheels, smaller battery, smaller servos etc) also remove as much wood you can in the fueselage...sound strange maybe but this is easily done with a Dremel sanding drum and a wood chisel.
Have you checked the wing ? If you have wash-in, is no good..and should be fixed right away!
Wash-out is good to have though.
A better prop than your 3-blade 10x6 would be a 2-blade 11x5 or maybe a 11,5x4
Better to have a large diameter disc than a corse pitch. That slows the airplane down much better.
also check idle-speed...should be around 2000-2200rpm using a 11x5 prop..or even a little lower.
Then practise ..practise and.....pr
Regards!
Jan K
Sweden
02-22-2005, 06:09 PM
#38
RE: T-34 Landing HOT
What I'm describing would take a few minutes of one flight, it's not like your in training or anything. All I'm saying is spend a couple minutes, figure out what happens when the plane stalls, and know what to expect when you find yourself in that posistion. It's good to know how slow your plane can fly and what it feels like flying slow, and how the controls feel when it's just above stall speed. That's all I'm saying, it was taught to me to do this to every plane so it's just something I do and thats how I know how slow my plane will fly.
ORIGINAL: tIANci
camss - come on its only a hobby and forum, we are here to have fun only. Its just that I really do not bother to fly that slow at all unless its a 3D plane like my TT Spirit 3D, she can fly really really slow.
camss - come on its only a hobby and forum, we are here to have fun only. Its just that I really do not bother to fly that slow at all unless its a 3D plane like my TT Spirit 3D, she can fly really really slow.
02-22-2005, 08:27 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
camss - I agree with what you say ... but once I am comfortable with my plane I will fly her really slow, somehow I know roughly where the limit is and I do not go too near to it. Guess, its gut feeling and noticing the wings starting to rock etc. I think if I did it with a CAP21 I will kill the plane immediately!!! I used to fly my T34 really slow, a high angle of attack and just puttering about at 10'-15'
What Kingwood says is true ... as a beginner you will land almost any plane hot! Guess its all about practising ... I used to fly everyday and practise landing all the time. I can't imagine I was too scared to land my Magic Extra once!!! Hahahaa ...
What Kingwood says is true ... as a beginner you will land almost any plane hot! Guess its all about practising ... I used to fly everyday and practise landing all the time. I can't imagine I was too scared to land my Magic Extra once!!! Hahahaa ...
02-22-2005, 09:50 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
these are excellent points and ones that i would take to mind on my next trip out. i guess the reason i'm not so concerned about stall test is that i have comfortable speed i like to fly at. this speed is usually above the stall speed and so as long as i can go around the pattern at that speed without any indications of stall (sudden loss in altitude, wing dropping) then i'm okay. i'm not a fan of the very short landing. i like a little speed and a little roll out on my landings... i personally think they look nicer. but i can see the merits of knowing what happens when you do stall. but i figure that i know subconsciously when i go into spins.
tIANci - you are british or of the commonwealth?
tIANci - you are british or of the commonwealth?
02-22-2005, 10:10 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
tIANci - i see... just noticed your european spelling :-) i am abc so you say "s" and i say "z". anyway, i'm surprised that neither of us have hi-jacked this thread already. lol.
02-22-2005, 10:47 PM
#43
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
thanks to everyone for all the input.. went to the field this afternoon and pitched it up a little more and use the throttle to control decent rate... worked like a champ and it seemed to land on the spot with no rollout.... other than the cross wind causing me to land a like a 40 degree crab angle... that was really fun LOL
02-23-2005, 12:06 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
Casey!!! You da man!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahaa ... I love it when they come in. I love to fly my plane slow and low for a pass, I can almost touch it. Then you realise how much aerodynamics is involved. Good on you Casey!!! Now try it inverted!!! Hehehe ... I used to fly inverted all the time and the people at my field were thinking I am kinda dodgy.
Forestroke - American's can't spell!!! Hahahaaa ....
Forestroke - American's can't spell!!! Hahahaaa ....
02-23-2005, 02:59 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
My Super Chipmunk did a nice inverted low pass, the rudder touched the ground ... hehehe ... of course I acted like I did it on purpose and I was very confident that it would not crash ... hahahaaa ...
Oh yes ... before we end up high jacking this thread ... my T34 was killed when I was flying really slow and decided to make a nice big lazy turn ... the wing caught a lamp post!!!
Oh yes ... before we end up high jacking this thread ... my T34 was killed when I was flying really slow and decided to make a nice big lazy turn ... the wing caught a lamp post!!!
02-23-2005, 07:47 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
ouch! that's like that time i deadsticked my rambler in an open field and found the right wing ripped off from hitting a lone rebar sticking out of the ground. i was like "just my luck". i would've sued the government but then again, i was trespassing :-)
02-23-2005, 10:04 AM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
Forestroke - I fly my WM T34 Mentor (so that we stay on topic) at a piece of vacant land in an industrial area. We do not know who the owner is but people have been doing it for years.
03-23-2005, 03:38 PM
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RE: T-34 Landing HOT
I love the T-34, it is so forgiving, and landing it is so much easier than your typical trainer with wire gear. The gear doesn't lend itself to bouncing, and if you set the nose gear right, the wing incidence will glue the plane to the ground on landing. In fact, I've found that the plane is capable of landing very slowly, slower than most trainers, and yet with the right trim setting can land even if I keep full throttle until the end of the last approach turn. As others have mentioned, the landing speed is dependent on your approach, so I won't go into it again. But the question I have for you is, why do you think coming in hot is a bad thing? Even with my full throttle approach, if I hit the runway mid span or earlier, I can weave back and forth on the ground to kill speed.
BTW I have an OS 46FX in mine with a 10x6 prop.
BTW I have an OS 46FX in mine with a 10x6 prop.