Beginners Beginners in RC start here for help.

Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Reply

Old 01-26-2002, 04:34 AM
  #76  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Re: R/C training

QUOTE]Originally posted by jmf2001
Hi Ray I belive with most of what you are saying.HOWEVER I would sure love to see anyone ( let alone a student ) doing 50 takoffs and landings in an hour.

Hi JMF
I said 50 take-offs and landings/touch-n-goes per hour of stick time. On a typical training flight of 30 minutes duration, most touch-downs are touch-n goes, simply because it takes too long to come to a full stop, taxi back, and then take off again. Each flight ends with a dead stick landing which does stay on the ground and rolls out to a full stop.

And 500 flights before they solo.
You must have some real bad students if it takes them 500 flights to solo.
JM
[/QUOTE]

I don't think a student is good or bad if it takes them 500 trips around the airport trafic pattern to solo, just typical or average. Some students solo after just 300 times around the pattern. Others require over a thousand. My job is to make sure each touch down is a good one and that the airplane is not damaged. My student's job is to learn, (by sense of touch), what to do with the sticks to bring the airplane down without needing me to assist. It is not really so important that the student solo at any certain time, just whatever time it takes them individually. The important thing for them is that they learn how to get the plane down with confidence and precision so they can build additional flight time on their own, as solo pilots.
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2002, 05:05 AM
  #77  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Originally posted by Miniair


I have a question, What did you do to become this, and I quote, "Professional R/C Flight Instructor" as there aren't any accredited schools that offer such a course, degree or diploma.

Hi Miniair,

Perhaps we should look at the definitions of "amateur" and "professional". In the American Heritage Dictionary, I found the following definitions:

Amateur - a person who engages in any art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than a profession...receiving no monetary compensation.

Professional - a person who receives pay for their services.

By these definitions, no matter how good someone is at a service, if they are not paid for their time/service, they are defined as "amateur". Also, no matter how bad at a service someone is, if they get paid for their time/service, they are defined as "professional".

Notice, these definitions say nothing about the quality of the service, either amateur or professional. There are probably some pretty good amateur golfers, for instance, who might make some money in the pro ranks, if they tried. There are also probably a few pro golfers who are just barely getting by and perhaps should consider finding a more financially rewarding way to make a living.

Bottom line...I am paid to teach people to fly model airplanes, and that makes me a professional at it.

As far as certification goes, I considered myself "self-certified" as a professional R/C Flight Instructor after I completed teaching (and documented with awarding of solo certificates), 100 individuals to fly with virtually no damage to their trainer aircraft in the process.

AMA in the US or MAAC in Canada don't recognize the "professional instructor" but do recognize instructors qualified through a club that is sanctioned by them and have met certain criterial.
I am not too concerned with recognition as a professional by the AMA or MAAC. My main concern is that my students recognize that they learned to fly without damaging their equipment and were happy to pay my fees to do it.
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2002, 05:21 AM
  #78  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Originally posted by TopShelf
I think we are getting into the "...chicken or egg..." argument when we ask these professionals how they became professionals. These guys are obviously pioneers and as such there will not be anyone to endorse them as qualified "professionals." The only certification they have is happy customers.

Hi TopShelf,

I agree. The only certification I am interested in is the "happy customer" certification, and I haven't had a displeased customer/student yet.

If the concept catches on, there will undoubtedly develop some sort of certification. In the mean time, these pioneers are the same as any flight instructor at a club as far as the AMA and others are concerned. However, as pointed out above, they offer better service than most club based free instructors.

Thank you for that asknowledgment. It means a lot to me.

Personally, I had a very good club experience for free and if I started off knowing I had to pay additional money to learn, I may not have started in the hobby at all.

Nobody is saying you must pay additional money to learn. Professional flight training is just an option, which, in my opinion people should be allowed to choose, or not choose.

However, I was frustrated at times because my schedule and instructors schedule did not always mesh.

I hear that story nearly every day from potential students who have contacted me to talk about learning to fly model airplanes.

Kent
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2002, 05:32 AM
  #79  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Re: Re: R/C training

Originally posted by gpmikemorse


I don't know if Ray is going to respond, but I know from his previous discussions that the 50 take offs and landings are in an hour of actual flying time, which obviously takes more than a clock hour to accomplish. Ray's planes have to come down and be re-fueled just like ours and his students need rest. But, from what I understand, his students basically take off, get their bearings, and set up for landing, over and over. With that in mind, one landing per minute is not unreasonable.

Hi gpmikemorse,

You are correct. Typical training flights are 30 minutes in duration and include at least 25 (typically 30 or more) touch-n-goes with an intentional dead stick landing at the end of the flight. A solo certificate is awarded to the student as soon as they can demonstrate three circuits around the field with taxi back to the pilot's station after the final roll out.

Also, Ray didn't say "500 flights" to solo, he said 500 landings. If you do the math, Ray is saying the average person takes 10 hours of actual flight time to solo. That matches pretty closely with my rule of thumb, which is 4 gallons of fuel to solo (by "solo" I mean "competence", not "first successful takeoff and landing without instructor intervening".)

Right again.

--Mike
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2002, 09:38 AM
  #80  
Mike James
Senior Member
 
Mike James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 2,565
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for instruction

Hi everybody!

Whew! What a discussion! Well, my short comment is simply... If you want or need to have instruction at certain times, maybe it makes sense. Today, I would happily help someone learn for free. (although I don't know about the "scheduling" aspect of it)

I paid for my flight instruction... Yep, each crash of the ARFs I was trying to learn with cost about $100... occasionally more, if I wrecked the engine and some radio parts) and that was for one (short!) flight. By the time I finally got a trainer kit and some help, I had already turned at least $500 or more worth of models into landfill. That same $500 would have paid for a LOT of instruction.

I agree with an earlier post...
Get a good trainer model, and get some help. It will save you a lot of money, frustration, and possible law suits. Whether you pay or not probably isn't so important. And don't forget to HAVE FUN! That's why we're all here, right?
Mike James is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 12:19 AM
  #81  
Timbersnake
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchikan, AK,
Posts: 92
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Hello All...

Some very interesting posts about instruction...let me quickly toss in my 2 cents. I got tired of watching 'instructors' crash my Trainer 60! Took my plane home, ordered a copy of RealFlight and it's been blue skies ever since. Sure, I've planted a couple of planes, but I've done it attempting pretty nasty stuff.
My biggest hurdle was training my hands and mind to use the sticks on my radio to control the airplane at any attitude or orientation...without having to think about it...Once you nail that, the airplane just becomes an extension. My advice? Buy a copy of RealFlight...check eBay for deals. It's expensive but you can crash it over and over while trying that new move...hit the spacebar and there you are...sitting on the runway, waiting to take off again.
Good luck all and happy flying.
Tracy
p.s. I'm not harping on instructors, I'm just saying it wasn't the way to go for me...I knew I could wreck my plane as well as they could...
Timbersnake is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 02:18 AM
  #82  
jmf2001
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 55
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for instructors.

I hear what you are saying. However most instructors whoget payed to teach don't ususly wipe out planes. Especialy if you are learning on theirs.
I have used real flight. I think it's great.
jmf2001 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 04:18 PM
  #83  
fliers1
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lockport, NY
Posts: 1,136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Check out this site to show the difference between being trained for free from a club and a proper way a commercial RC flight school should be run.

http://communities.msn.com/NortheastAviationRC

The main difference is, that as opposed to clubs, not that clubs don't do the best they can, the beginner is the paid instructor's only priority.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
fliers1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 06:17 PM
  #84  
Scorpionjack
 
Scorpionjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Hot Springs NC
Posts: 660
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Now comes the Advertisments

CCR;
Sorry but advertising for an Instructor/Paid Instructor for a hobby that the Instructor was probably taught for free anyhow is B.S.

95% of these so called Paid Instructors were taught for free. 100% of all of the R/C Pilots in America were taught for free prior to this get rich Generation your a part of!! We see it every darn day people sueing for B.S. like getting burnt by coffee etc.

Lets get back to reality, You've bee given an opportunity to give something to your community why not provide a little instruction in flying or building. Instead you paid instructors sit there dreaming up more schemes(Now how can I make some more Money of this Kid and his Father)..



Wake Up
Scorpionjack is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 06:52 PM
  #85  
fliers1
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lockport, NY
Posts: 1,136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Re: Now comes the Advertisments

Originally posted by Scorpionjack
CCR;
Sorry but advertising for an Instructor/Paid Instructor for a hobby that the Instructor was probably taught for free anyhow is B.S.

95% of these so called Paid Instructors were taught for free. 100% of all of the R/C Pilots in America were taught for free prior to this get rich Generation your a part of!! We see it every darn day people sueing for B.S. like getting burnt by coffee etc.

Lets get back to reality, You've bee given an opportunity to give something to your community why not provide a little instruction in flying or building. Instead you paid instructors sit there dreaming up more schemes(Now how can I make some more Money of this Kid and his Father)..



Wake Up
The purpose of posting the url for that flight school was to show the difference between what free instructors offers and what a paid flight instructor offers and not meant as advsertisement.

Now if you can match what the school offers for free, then you got a case. I think beginners are smart enough to make a choice, at least now they have a choice. Place an ad in any magazine offering the public free instruction and be prepared to teach a lot of people. Apparently, you are not aware of the enormous number of beginners who are ready to pay for the extra help they can't get in their clubs. A paid instructor might teach 60 people per year. How many does the one free instructor teach?

I was taught for free and went through 4 airplanes and 3 years before I could fly on my own. Why it took so long was that instructors were always hard to fly. If I had the choice, (which I didn't at the time) I would've gladly paid to learn in less than a week. All and all, with paid instruction, I would've saved a few hundred dollars and many trips back and forth to the flying field. BTW, I only crashed one of those planes. I have my free instructors to thank for the other pilot error crashes.

As they say, to each his own.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.mfarchive.modelstuff.co.uk/mf045/postbox.htm
fliers1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 07:30 PM
  #86  
can773
My Feedback: (1)
 
can773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Posts: 2,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Hello

I was taught by ScorpionJack (without a BB) who would be a so called "amateur" instructor by those who would term themselves "professional". I am currently ranked 30th worldwide flying F3A precision aerobatics, boy sure hurt me to have an "amateur" teach me. Do you "pros" really think you can offer better instruction than the "amatuers", I doubt it. Its the quality of the instruction that counts not the quantity.

On another point, I cannot understand how you can call yourself a professional? Who granted you that designation? As an engineer I must work 4 years write a test get recommended etc etc before I can use the designation "professional engineer". Using that designation without any qualifications is a crock.

Provide solid concrete proof that "pro" instructors are better.
can773 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 09:02 PM
  #88  
TopShelf
My Feedback: (4)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 672
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

I don't think any of the paid instructors here are saying that volunteer instructors can't do a good job. Obviously, many do and excellent job and their work is responsible for the vast majority of fliers today. What they are offering is AVAILABILITY and guarenteed stick time. Which is something that MOST volunteer instructors can't always provide despite their best intentions.

Kent
TopShelf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 11:53 PM
  #89  
EXCAP232
My Feedback: (12)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 1,319
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Beginners Forum Subject ??

All interesting reading and points of view. When a beginner comes to this site is this information relevant or helpful? I think not! E-mail me privately with your comments. Lets keep this forum realted to helping beginners. This is my opinion only. Bill
Moderator ~ RC Universe Beginners
EXCAP232 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 03:07 AM
  #90  
Raybow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 241
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying For Instruction

I have read with interest all of the Comments, some quite Nasty.
i can speak from experience as i in fact Travelled from New Zealand to Ray Smith's Flight Training School in Monterey in Jan -Feb 2001.
The Training Method does work, and in fact is very Student Orientated and Ray a Very Capable Instuctor.
The reason i went to Ray's School is that i found that most of the Members of any Club are Stuck-Up, Self Interested Individuals who do not like you on "Their Patch" as also appears from the Attitude of some of these Vitriolic Comments so far.
When i was being trained we in fact had 1 from New Foundland,[Self Employed}and a Doctor from Switzerland so the comments "as being thick' is a Bit Rich from some of the subscribers.
Also Ray is assisting the American Economy, we all Hired Cars, stayed in Motels, ate out , purchased things,spent a lot in your local communities and returned with 7 more bags than we left with and made Friends which we still have to this day.
This time we are returning to the USa to revisit our friends, and travel, Spending more and bringing and additional visitor, and Yes i will be meeting up with Ray to do some more Flying.
So i suggest before anyone else "Puts Their Foot in Their Mouth"go see Ray, Fly and Try then you can make an Informed Comment instead of what we call "Shooting Your Mouth Off'.

By the way i Own My own Company.

Ray Kearney
Raybow is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 05:27 AM
  #91  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Originally posted by TopShelf
I don't think any of the paid instructors here are saying that volunteer instructors can't do a good job. Obviously, many do an excellent job and their work is responsible for the vast majority of fliers today. What they are offering is AVAILABILITY and guarenteed stick time. Which is something that MOST volunteer instructors can't always provide despite their best intentions.

Kent
Hi Kent,

As I discussed in my first post on this thread, there are two more dimensions to flight training at the professional level besides AVAILABILITY (showing up) and GUARANTEEING STICK TIME (dedicating time to teaching). Most people do arrive at my school thinking these first two are the most important things they will be receiving at my school. The other two things, GUARANTEEING EVERYTHING (as in taking full responsibility for any damage which might occur during training) and USING A TRUELY HELPFULL TRAINING TECHNIQUE (not the buddy box) which allows them to actually feel the correct inputs needed to fly, (and especially land) with precision, become quite big parts of their overall appreciation of what I do only after they have started their flight training. They quickly realize, (after landing more than 100 times their first day of training), that they can "see the light at the end of the tunnel", and that they will actually achieve what they came to me to do (become solo pilots) in just a matter of days at my school (typically 4 to 6).

In other words, at the professional level of R/C flight training, showing up and dedicating yourself to training your students is only half of what you are expected to do. The other half (which volunteers seem, quite often to be lacking), is taking full responsibility for the safety of the airplane and putting the student into many landings, right from the start so that they will be able to demonstrate solo proficiency (and earn their solo certificates) in the minimum possible time frame.

Regards,

Ray Smith
Professional R/C Flight Instructor
Owner, Hobbies Aloft R/C Flight School
www.hobbiesaloft.com
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 07:25 AM
  #92  
JBH
Banned
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 666
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Re: Beginners Forum Subject ??

Originally posted by EXCAP232
All interesting reading and points of view. When a beginner comes to this site is this information relevant or helpful? I think not! E-mail me privately with your comments. Lets keep this forum realted to helping beginners. This is my opinion only. Bill
Moderator ~ RC Universe Beginners
If what you're getting at is that this subject has been beat to death in this thread... then I certainly agree.
JBH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 03:44 PM
  #93  
Ray Smith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Marina| CA, CA
Posts: 16
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Originally posted by can773
Hello

I was taught by ScorpionJack (without a BB) who would be a so called "amateur" instructor by those who would term themselves "professional". I am currently ranked 30th worldwide flying F3A precision aerobatics, boy sure hurt me to have an "amateur" teach me.

Hello can773,

Your instructor is not responsible for how well you do with flying R/C model airplanes after you solo, you are. There is no substitute for stick time, but it is hard to build stick time if you can't land the airplane. It doesn't really matter how you get to the point of soloing, just that you get there so you can realize your potential as a pilot.

Do you "pros" really think you can offer better instruction than the "amatuers", I doubt it. Its the quality of the instruction that counts not the quantity.

I agree that quality of instruction is very important, in that you will solo sooner with better training. Again, it's up to you to reach your own potential as a pilot, after you solo.

On another point, I cannot understand how you can call yourself a professional? Who granted you that designation?

As I said earlier in this thread, I considered myself "certified" as a professional flight instructor after I documented 100 solo pilots trained without damage to their equipment in the process, and was paid to do it.

As an engineer I must work 4 years write a test get recommended etc etc before I can use the designation "professional engineer". Using that designation without any qualifications is a crock.

I am also an engineer, now retired, (Aeronautical Engineer, Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, 1968.) I received a salary for my work as a flight test engineer at Edwards Air Force Base and I was a member of the SFTE (Society of Flight Test Engineers) for many years. As a professional flight instructor, I guarantee all aspects of my training, and I receive compensation for my work. I think that is enough to consider myself "professional" at what I do now.

Provide solid concrete proof that "pro" instructors are better.
One-hundred-sixty-two solo certificates (so far) awarded to students who completed training with me. I think that is fairly "concrete" proof, but that's just my thoughts on the matter.
Ray Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 06:19 PM
  #94  
Dugster
Senior Member
 
Dugster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Apache Junction, AZ
Posts: 662
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Yep, been beat to death

Hey EXCAP232,

I read ALL the post's and there's been nothing new said since page one. How about closing this before the flames get out of control?
Dugster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 06:20 PM
  #95  
JBH
Banned
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 666
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Now we're getting into major posturing... IMO... it's time to give this subject a rest.

Thanks for considering the idea. :-)
JBH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 06:22 PM
  #96  
JBH
Banned
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 666
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

Hey!... you're reading my mind Dugster! :-)
JBH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 07:40 PM
  #97  
fliers1
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lockport, NY
Posts: 1,136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

By all means, close this thread. I am sure that the 1722 viewers are aware of the situation, of whom, many must be disillusioned beginners. It would've been nice if those beginners could've spoken for themselves, but I realize that they must of thought it better that they didn't.

For those who have a problem with paid instruction, they should add their names to AMA's instructor list. There is a page for instructors to do so, be they volunteers or otherwise.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/templat...AE5500F642AAre

If this page was inundated with volunteer instructors, this would make it all but impossible for anyone to get paid to teach. I will check on that page now and then to see how many volunteers add their names to that list, especially those who posted their thoughts on this thread.

Please put an end to this discussion immediately, as you said, it isn't helping beginners at all.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
fliers1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2002, 09:40 PM
  #98  
jmf2001
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 55
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Paying for Flight insrucrtion

What we need now is people who can teach new modelers how to build, cover, install equipmment and properly set up any model to fly.
Talk to you guys later, Im going out to fly.
jmf2001 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service