3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
08-27-2005, 07:06 PM
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3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
HI all, though this didnt happen to my plane ( I was on ground at time not flying)
it happened to 3 other planes, at club they had 4 trainers up , with instructors
1st plane was a kadet 40, it went in first was too low and it turned too sharp
instructor couldnt save it,
thats when it went all went bad , because of the first plane going in, 2 of the other
instructors made a fatal error in judgement and took thier eyes off what they
were flying, 1 of them was a brand new Nexstar being flown by instructor to
test it while it's never flown 14 year old owner stood next to him ( wasnt on a buddy
box as it was a test flight) , that plane was utterly destroyed , and the kid was very
down about it , as he's never flown and it was new and expensive , the 3rd was a
hobbico superstar, it also was utterly totalled, im guessing that it took just over a minute
for all 3 planes to go down , as all the instructors were flying the wrong plane as
they didnt know what was where, the 2 that went down after the first crash were
totally out of control , and the instructors didnt know who's was who's plane
do ya think that 4 trainers in air at same time is a bad idea? also not sure if im
right but if I had it my way , there would only be one plane in the air if its a maiden
flight and no one else, Anyway this really happened, and I thought it was a needless
excuse for 3 crashes, that werent the students fault ,
it happened to 3 other planes, at club they had 4 trainers up , with instructors
1st plane was a kadet 40, it went in first was too low and it turned too sharp
instructor couldnt save it,
thats when it went all went bad , because of the first plane going in, 2 of the other
instructors made a fatal error in judgement and took thier eyes off what they
were flying, 1 of them was a brand new Nexstar being flown by instructor to
test it while it's never flown 14 year old owner stood next to him ( wasnt on a buddy
box as it was a test flight) , that plane was utterly destroyed , and the kid was very
down about it , as he's never flown and it was new and expensive , the 3rd was a
hobbico superstar, it also was utterly totalled, im guessing that it took just over a minute
for all 3 planes to go down , as all the instructors were flying the wrong plane as
they didnt know what was where, the 2 that went down after the first crash were
totally out of control , and the instructors didnt know who's was who's plane
do ya think that 4 trainers in air at same time is a bad idea? also not sure if im
right but if I had it my way , there would only be one plane in the air if its a maiden
flight and no one else, Anyway this really happened, and I thought it was a needless
excuse for 3 crashes, that werent the students fault ,
08-27-2005, 07:18 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Usually at my field (I don't know about others) we usually let a maiden plane go up by itself. No matter how good the "test pilot" is. This is especially true with the large 30% scale+ planes go up for the first ever flight.
That is also true when someone crashes and they come back with the repaired plane and take it up to test it's flight worthyness after the crash. You never know with a repaired plane. A crystal could have gone out in the crash and nobody knew or something like that.
I know I usually come down, or don't go up at all when I know someone is training, and so do my other fellow pilot friends. I know when I was learning I was good to just be concentrated on my plane, and not have to worry about others going up.
If there are multiple trainers of the SAME KIND or VERY SIMILAR then I would not go up if I had a similar looking plane. If 4 people are just learning, I say to just go up one at the time to make things easier.
~Michael~
That is also true when someone crashes and they come back with the repaired plane and take it up to test it's flight worthyness after the crash. You never know with a repaired plane. A crystal could have gone out in the crash and nobody knew or something like that.
I know I usually come down, or don't go up at all when I know someone is training, and so do my other fellow pilot friends. I know when I was learning I was good to just be concentrated on my plane, and not have to worry about others going up.
If there are multiple trainers of the SAME KIND or VERY SIMILAR then I would not go up if I had a similar looking plane. If 4 people are just learning, I say to just go up one at the time to make things easier.
~Michael~
08-27-2005, 07:27 PM
#3
RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Wow, that sucks big time
Normally we do not have more than 2 trainers up at any one moment. Sometimes we get 4 but we allow no more than that. With 4 students in the air it's gets bad at times and I will have my student land if it's getting too wild
Now the other side of this is a student needs to learn to fly with others in the air and this should be taught. This of course all depends on the student and where he/she is at in training.
As far as a maiden. It's an unspoken rule that everyone stays out of the air if a maiden is about to happen. It all works out in the end as most people wait until the airspace is clear before they do a maiden and if there allot of people it's not uncommon to go up and down the flight line asking for 5 minutes alone in the air to do the maiden.
Normally we do not have more than 2 trainers up at any one moment. Sometimes we get 4 but we allow no more than that. With 4 students in the air it's gets bad at times and I will have my student land if it's getting too wild
Now the other side of this is a student needs to learn to fly with others in the air and this should be taught. This of course all depends on the student and where he/she is at in training.
As far as a maiden. It's an unspoken rule that everyone stays out of the air if a maiden is about to happen. It all works out in the end as most people wait until the airspace is clear before they do a maiden and if there allot of people it's not uncommon to go up and down the flight line asking for 5 minutes alone in the air to do the maiden.
08-27-2005, 08:59 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
As far as a maiden. It's an unspoken rule that everyone stays out of the air if a maiden is about to happen.
As far as a maiden. It's an unspoken rule that everyone stays out of the air if a maiden is about to happen.
~Michael~
08-27-2005, 09:09 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
That does suck!
So what does happen when your instructor crashes your plane and it was his fault? Does the AMA insurance cover stuff like that, or is the student crap out of luck?
So what does happen when your instructor crashes your plane and it was his fault? Does the AMA insurance cover stuff like that, or is the student crap out of luck?
08-27-2005, 09:22 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
ORIGINAL: tonyL1
1 of them was a brand new Nexstar being flown by instructor to
test it it was new and expensive hobbico superstar, was utterly totalled, just over a minute
for all 3 planes to go down , as all the instructors were flying the wrong plane as
they didnt know what was where, the 2 that went down after the first crash were
totally out of control , and the instructors didnt know who's was who's plane
I thought it was a needless excuse for 3 crashes, that werent the students fault ,
1 of them was a brand new Nexstar being flown by instructor to
test it it was new and expensive hobbico superstar, was utterly totalled, just over a minute
for all 3 planes to go down , as all the instructors were flying the wrong plane as
they didnt know what was where, the 2 that went down after the first crash were
totally out of control , and the instructors didnt know who's was who's plane
I thought it was a needless excuse for 3 crashes, that werent the students fault ,
08-27-2005, 10:04 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
it is an unspoken rule at my field that when a new plane goes up they are normally by themselves,you have to look at flying like this whenever a plane goes up it might be the last time.no one wants to lose an airplane but anything can happen.i have seen several crashes in a day,two at once but never three I'm sorry for the loss.as far as an instructor replacing an airplane when i was learning i was told by the instructor (quote) i make no guarantees that it will fly or that it might not crash but i will do my best to teach you (unquote)if it was a blatant crash due to carelessness i would expect for that person to reimburse something,but i don't know of any instructor that would purposley crash an airplane.the instructors at my field don't charge for teaching like most,and they have pretty high standards for issuing an instructors permit.we are fighting gravity for starters and mishaps happen.what would happen if the student tried to self teach?i owe my instructor several planes for him saving my hide.don't be discouraged by this.i don't know of too many experienced flyer's that can say they haven't lose an airplane if you stay in the sport it will happen sooner or later and hopefully not too serious that repairs cant be made.if you want a crash safe sport try RC cars or boats but you still have repairs there.i love RC airplanes and the sport and have nothing bad to say about instructors.my own personel attitude is this every airplane i take off the ground i know something could happen and write it off until the wheels are back on earth,i am a stickler on pre checks and try to prepare for anything that can happen but the laws of gravity and statistics are against us.and i will say i haven't lost an airplane in a long while...knock on balsa.......happy flying
08-28-2005, 04:37 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Maybe this is a good case to buy something like FMA co-pilot. I would trust a computer more than I would trust an instructor.
08-28-2005, 07:15 AM
#9
RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
First off, I agree with the above posts in that the maiden flight should have been done with nothing else in the air. A maiden flight is a pretty stressful time by itself, but to try it with other planes in the air is just asking for trouble.
Now my next statements are going to come off as arrogant and I'm sorry if they do come off that way, but I feel they need to be said. As an instructor for a bit over 6 years I'm proud to say that I have never crashed a students plane yet. The instructors in the incident described above had no right to be instructing, period. If they were distracted by another plane to the point that they lost control of the plane they were flying then they need to quit instructing until they improve their skills. An instructor has two main purposes while in the air, safeguarding the airplane from a crash and teaching the student to fly his airplane. The most important of these 2 is keeping the plane safe, and if it wasn't important we wouldn't be using buddy boxes to instruct with.
IMHO the instructors should replace the students airplanes, no questions asked. I too say that I won't be responsible for a crash if the student assembled the plane incorrectly (this usually only applies to trainers build from a kit), but most of those assembly mistakes should be caught be the instructor when they do a safety inspection of the plane on the ground before flight. But if I were to let the plane crash because I wasn't paying attention or because I didn't do my job as an instructor, then I am 100% at fault for the crash and I should replace it. No questions at all about it.
As I said at the start of this post some of my comments may have been a bit harsh. I am sorry if I upset anybody, but the truth can be harsh at times. And I may have come off as sounding arrogant too, but I feel that these statements needed to be made.
That's my 2¢ worth.
Ken
Now my next statements are going to come off as arrogant and I'm sorry if they do come off that way, but I feel they need to be said. As an instructor for a bit over 6 years I'm proud to say that I have never crashed a students plane yet. The instructors in the incident described above had no right to be instructing, period. If they were distracted by another plane to the point that they lost control of the plane they were flying then they need to quit instructing until they improve their skills. An instructor has two main purposes while in the air, safeguarding the airplane from a crash and teaching the student to fly his airplane. The most important of these 2 is keeping the plane safe, and if it wasn't important we wouldn't be using buddy boxes to instruct with.
IMHO the instructors should replace the students airplanes, no questions asked. I too say that I won't be responsible for a crash if the student assembled the plane incorrectly (this usually only applies to trainers build from a kit), but most of those assembly mistakes should be caught be the instructor when they do a safety inspection of the plane on the ground before flight. But if I were to let the plane crash because I wasn't paying attention or because I didn't do my job as an instructor, then I am 100% at fault for the crash and I should replace it. No questions at all about it.
As I said at the start of this post some of my comments may have been a bit harsh. I am sorry if I upset anybody, but the truth can be harsh at times. And I may have come off as sounding arrogant too, but I feel that these statements needed to be made.
That's my 2¢ worth.
Ken
08-28-2005, 07:22 AM
#10
RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
ORIGINAL: RCKen
First off, I agree with the above posts in that the maiden flight should have been done with nothing else in the air. A maiden flight is a pretty stressful time by itself, but to try it with other planes in the air is just asking for trouble.
Now my next statements are going to come off as arrogant and I'm sorry if they do come off that way, but I feel they need to be said. As an instructor for a bit over 6 years I'm proud to say that I have never crashed a students plane yet. The instructors in the incident described above had no right to be instructing, period. If they were distracted by another plane to the point that they lost control of the plane they were flying then they need to quit instructing until they improve their skills. An instructor has two main purposes while in the air, safeguarding the airplane from a crash and teaching the student to fly his airplane. The most important of these 2 is keeping the plane safe, and if it wasn't important we wouldn't be using buddy boxes to instruct with.
IMHO the instructors should replace the students airplanes, no questions asked. I too say that I won't be responsible for a crash if the student assembled the plane incorrectly (this usually only applies to trainers build from a kit), but most of those assembly mistakes should be caught be the instructor when they do a safety inspection of the plane on the ground before flight. But if I were to let the plane crash because I wasn't paying attention or because I didn't do my job as an instructor, then I am 100% at fault for the crash and I should replace it. No questions at all about it.
As I said at the start of this post some of my comments may have been a bit harsh. I am sorry if I upset anybody, but the truth can be harsh at times. And I may have come off as sounding arrogant too, but I feel that these statements needed to be made.
That's my 2¢ worth.
Ken
First off, I agree with the above posts in that the maiden flight should have been done with nothing else in the air. A maiden flight is a pretty stressful time by itself, but to try it with other planes in the air is just asking for trouble.
Now my next statements are going to come off as arrogant and I'm sorry if they do come off that way, but I feel they need to be said. As an instructor for a bit over 6 years I'm proud to say that I have never crashed a students plane yet. The instructors in the incident described above had no right to be instructing, period. If they were distracted by another plane to the point that they lost control of the plane they were flying then they need to quit instructing until they improve their skills. An instructor has two main purposes while in the air, safeguarding the airplane from a crash and teaching the student to fly his airplane. The most important of these 2 is keeping the plane safe, and if it wasn't important we wouldn't be using buddy boxes to instruct with.
IMHO the instructors should replace the students airplanes, no questions asked. I too say that I won't be responsible for a crash if the student assembled the plane incorrectly (this usually only applies to trainers build from a kit), but most of those assembly mistakes should be caught be the instructor when they do a safety inspection of the plane on the ground before flight. But if I were to let the plane crash because I wasn't paying attention or because I didn't do my job as an instructor, then I am 100% at fault for the crash and I should replace it. No questions at all about it.
As I said at the start of this post some of my comments may have been a bit harsh. I am sorry if I upset anybody, but the truth can be harsh at times. And I may have come off as sounding arrogant too, but I feel that these statements needed to be made.
That's my 2¢ worth.
Ken
08-28-2005, 07:37 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Couple of thoughts, mostly in agreement with Ken:
Common courtesy and common sense (neither of which are common any more, ime) suggest that when a plane is making its maiden, it should be the only plane in the air. However, keep something else in mind. The original poster doesn't say what ORDER these planes went up in, so it's possible that the instructor maidening the Nexstar made the choice to put the plane up with the others already flying.
As for the pilots of the 3 planes?
1) Buy your student a new plane.
2) Make sure he/she learns from YOUR mistake that rule 1 is never EVER take your eyes off your plane.
Common courtesy and common sense (neither of which are common any more, ime) suggest that when a plane is making its maiden, it should be the only plane in the air. However, keep something else in mind. The original poster doesn't say what ORDER these planes went up in, so it's possible that the instructor maidening the Nexstar made the choice to put the plane up with the others already flying.
As for the pilots of the 3 planes?
1) Buy your student a new plane.
2) Make sure he/she learns from YOUR mistake that rule 1 is never EVER take your eyes off your plane.
08-28-2005, 08:08 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
i agree with r/c ken,i have been instructing since 1973 and i onlyhave had one small crash in that time when the student was using orbit equipment and no buddy box was available ,he got into a turn banked too much and i could tell the plane was going to stall and spiral and went to take the tx and the student turned away from me to keep it himself.the next thing the plane stalls and sarts spiralling in and the student pushes the tx in my hands,i was able to get the plane leveled out and slowed down before it hit the ground on all three wheels.only damage was bent nose and main gear,but boy did we have a dicussion about giving up the tx afterwards.
08-28-2005, 09:25 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
.I`m not trying to make waves ..but the most basic, basics,seem to have been, totaly dis-regarded..why was there no check list shown to the student ,and how to use it.They need to be shown more than just where the fuel goes,how to put the glo-starter on, and how to flip the engine over to start it..This entire train wreck could have been avoided ,if the first plane didn`t wreck,AND A LIST SHOULD HAVE caught, any potentil set -up errors..For all I know, this may have been the first time the student, GLUED 2 sticks together,EVER. At the skill level these pupils were at, they should have been the only plane in the air.They have enough on their plate, alone,never mind with the distraction of, other planes out, to break their concentration. They should at least be at the point of no buddy cord ,with the instructor near by, for a tx hand off..Aside from the maiden thing.I`m sure club members will understand ,the difficulty in the initial learning curve for the new hobbyist.After all no-one is born with the ability to fly..Give them 15 mins.,once in a while,it`s fun to watch too.There is lots to learn on the ground too.. Maybe a scheduled day for this sort of thing occasionally.
.I`m not an instructor,but,it seems to me, that there was a bit of a competiton going on there,amongst the instructors..Like whos student was going to get in the air first, and learn to fly,before the other, instructors, pupil. I appoligize if I`m wrong.. Maybe a standard of instructor re-fresher course every year or 2. It` s done with the CPR certifacates (life saving),and no shame in that..
.I HOPE THAT THOSE STUDENTS, ARE NOT SO TURNED OFF BY ALL THIS..YOU NEVER KNOW ,THAT FIELD MAY HAVE LOST future champion PILOTS.,,and lifetime members..
It would be good if the instructors would explain their side to this ,so others could learn something, from this mess...D.B.
.I`m not an instructor,but,it seems to me, that there was a bit of a competiton going on there,amongst the instructors..Like whos student was going to get in the air first, and learn to fly,before the other, instructors, pupil. I appoligize if I`m wrong.. Maybe a standard of instructor re-fresher course every year or 2. It` s done with the CPR certifacates (life saving),and no shame in that..
.I HOPE THAT THOSE STUDENTS, ARE NOT SO TURNED OFF BY ALL THIS..YOU NEVER KNOW ,THAT FIELD MAY HAVE LOST future champion PILOTS.,,and lifetime members..
It would be good if the instructors would explain their side to this ,so others could learn something, from this mess...D.B.
08-28-2005, 10:00 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
"So what does happen when your instructor crashes your plane and it was his fault? Does the AMA insurance cover stuff like that, or is the student crap out of luck? "
Why AMA ins, I don't think it should be used, instructors were at fault and should take care of it.
Why AMA ins, I don't think it should be used, instructors were at fault and should take care of it.
08-28-2005, 11:15 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
At our field, when a plane has it's first flight, we have the main pilot (instructor) and another instructor to help with trimming. The trimming instructor is usually not required unless the plane is really out of trim. This way the instructor pilot can keep his eyes on the plane and say, "Give me two clicks of down elevator" or "Give me a click of right airelon" We do this until the plane can fly level with hands off.
IMHO, it works well.
IMHO, it works well.
08-28-2005, 11:38 AM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
R/C Ken, none of that sounded like you were being arrogant, it sounded more like you knew what you were talking about!
Although I am not an instructor I strongly agree with Ken!
Although I am not an instructor I strongly agree with Ken!
08-28-2005, 12:15 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Yes, I'm yet another who agrees with RCKen. Other times, someone might agress that was horribly put, but in this case, everything was very well said. And YES that instructor should be held accountable for the lose of the plane. The other 3 should too, and somebody needs to bring this up if not already. As Ken said, a GOOD instructor should NEVER, EVER be distracted by any other plane. I know if one crashes, it is very tempting to look, I sometimes, can't help it. But, a deticated instructor shouldn't be distracted by another crashing plane, and should always keep their eyes on the plane they are piloting. Although, I'm not saying those instructors are not good instructors, they might just need to stay more "focused" on what they are flying.
I really hope those guys get their planes FIXED or REPLACED, like they say, NO QUESITONS ASKED!!
I hope I didn't come off as mean either!
~Michael~
I really hope those guys get their planes FIXED or REPLACED, like they say, NO QUESITONS ASKED!!
I hope I didn't come off as mean either!
~Michael~
08-28-2005, 12:15 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Horace315 - take note. You can crash a car or a boat just as easy as an airplane. It's tougher with a sail boat but an airboat will do a spectacular crash. Most airplanes do not sink after the crash and there are salvageable parts and pieces. I've crashed eveything that is made for RC.
08-28-2005, 12:42 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
ORIGINAL: ballgunner
Horace315 - take note. You can crash a car or a boat just as easy as an airplane. It's tougher with a sail boat but an airboat will do a spectacular crash. Most airplanes do not sink after the crash and there are salvageable parts and pieces. I've crashed eveything that is made for RC.
Horace315 - take note. You can crash a car or a boat just as easy as an airplane. It's tougher with a sail boat but an airboat will do a spectacular crash. Most airplanes do not sink after the crash and there are salvageable parts and pieces. I've crashed eveything that is made for RC.
08-28-2005, 04:36 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
i think if i were to crash something i would rather it be one my RC cars than an airplane,we really dont get much of an option when an accident happens.i would be curious of a lot of other variables with the way the crashes were described wasn't a lot of details,for all we know the first crash might have been near the other two instructors in that case id run like heck,i saw an instructor almost get decapitated by a rotor blade of a helicopter if it weren't for another pilot standing behind him it would have been diastorious.i was always taught when i was learning to not have tunnel vision watch the whole field at the same time as you are flying.i hate to see someone lose an airplane or any of their equipment.the only people that really knew what happened is the instructors
08-28-2005, 05:27 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
The planes should be replaced by the instructors, no question because "the most important job of instructor is keeping the plane safe". Crashes, other noises, gas engines on larger planes all make noise and can be a distraction. If the instructors haven't learned how to stay focused on the plane that they are flying when a different noise occours then they shouldn't be instructing.[>:]
08-28-2005, 06:15 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Nuff Said!!
Hey, I have a helicopter!! They can be dangerous if you're not watching out. (BTW, the tip speed on a 30 sized helicopter have ~1500 rotor RPM has a tip speed of OVER 200 MPH. They can be fun though, but that's beside the point. Just a little fact for the day!
~Michael~
08-28-2005, 06:37 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
For the guy with the Nexstar what about the guarantee? Hopefully somebody can get this replaced. The other 2 should be the instructors responsibliity.
The NexSTAR also carries the Success Flight Guarantee which states"
"You will successfully learn how to fly with the NexSTAR or we will
replace it with your choice of any Hobbico trainer of up to equal
value." The terms are as follows:
- Must fly at an AMA chartered field
- Must fly with a qualified AMA club instructor
- Must be within 60 days of purchase date
- Must provide a statement abut the crash with signatures from the
pilot and instructor
Jim
The NexSTAR also carries the Success Flight Guarantee which states"
"You will successfully learn how to fly with the NexSTAR or we will
replace it with your choice of any Hobbico trainer of up to equal
value." The terms are as follows:
- Must fly at an AMA chartered field
- Must fly with a qualified AMA club instructor
- Must be within 60 days of purchase date
- Must provide a statement abut the crash with signatures from the
pilot and instructor
Jim
08-28-2005, 06:42 PM
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RE: 3 trainers dead in 2 minutes with instructors
Quote "The original poster doesn't say what ORDER these planes went up in, so it's possible that the instructor maidening the Nexstar made the choice to put the plane up with the others already flying. "
Yes the new Nexstar on its maiden was 3rd to go up out of the 4 planes that did end up in the air ( the 4th plane of plane 4 i guess
landed safely ) none of the planes themselves failed mechanically batt wise etc , it was all pilot instructor error.
2 of the planes that were downed in the incident least had dozens of flights, but i feel very sorry for the owner of the nexstar
and i have no info regarding plane replacement by instructor etc, I'll know more when i go back to field
Yes the new Nexstar on its maiden was 3rd to go up out of the 4 planes that did end up in the air ( the 4th plane of plane 4 i guess
landed safely ) none of the planes themselves failed mechanically batt wise etc , it was all pilot instructor error.
2 of the planes that were downed in the incident least had dozens of flights, but i feel very sorry for the owner of the nexstar
and i have no info regarding plane replacement by instructor etc, I'll know more when i go back to field