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  1. #301
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf

    Yep I would like to own a home in AZ live there during the winter and here in the summer best of both worlds ,getting old aint for sissys but getting older and the cold dont cut it for me *L*

    Digger I have looked at that koverall several times but never have used it.Seems to be lite weight untill you add the primer and paint of course .But I was under the impression that it stuck down just like ultra coat or monokote ,wasn't aware you had to use dope with it .
    Cyber , sorry for not responding any sooner. Don't really know what to tell you about the dope except that you don't have to use it. I thought the same thing at first until doing a lot of research here on RCU. Couple of links for you to read through. See if you come to the same conclusion as I did. Weight penalty not as much as I first thought.
    Sig Hog
    WACO
    Koverall Application
    Bridi

    Lots of good info in these threads about koverall application.
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  2. #302
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Hey guy long time no talk ,this is what the directions has to say about it.
    Dope to "dope it on" or Sig Stix-it heat activated covering adhesive
    that you brush on the frame of your model then let it dry and use a
    heat gun and sealing iron just like most other coverings such as
    MONOKOTE.
    Use Sig Clear Dope to seal the Koverall, then apply the finish of
    your choice.
    Sounds more complicated than I thought.

    Here is a plane that I did for a fellow flyer last summer ,its done in coverite Originally it was done in koverall and painted in the exact same color scheme .When I was done, the complete plane weighed 5 lbs less than it did with the painted material.Although I wasn't there to see the Maiden voyage he called me up all the way from southwestern Idaho and just ranted on and on about how much better it flew and so on .


    The coverite is not bad to work with as it will go around corners better than film coverings ,but I think for best results a man may want to use some Balsa rite in the compound places just to make sure.Plus its already painted but colors are limited.

    Drats I got the same pic twice !
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    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  3. #303
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    5 pounds is a huge difference. I hope to do it with much less penalty. I guess it all depends on the method of application. I have been studying the application procedures and havn't quite got the method I will use yet but am close. I hope this dosn't turn into a brick with wings type of thing.[sm=omg_smile.gif]
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  4. #304

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    If you're going to use koverall or similar, and plan on using dope, get yourself an HVLP spraygun. I've had great luck with one i bought at Harbor Freight.

    I'm just finishing up a Giant Aeromaster. For an experiment, I painted a 1'X1' frame of the same fabric (I used StitsLite instead of koverall, but it's comparable) and found that with the dope properly thinned, and using a minimal number of light coats, the 1 sq ft piece of fabric weighed in virtually identical to Monokote! I used Brodak dope, and put on 2 coats clear before covering, attached the Stits with the stits recommended adhesive, then 2 coats clear after covering, 2 coats of their 'primer' which fills the grain, wetsanding with 400 to 600 paper after, then shot the color. 3 base coats of white, 3 of my trim colors, and followed up with 3 coats of clear. Only brusing I did was up to the first coat of color, once I got to the white base coat, it was all sprayed, and it came out looking like a wet popsicle!

    The majority of the weight on dope is in the carrier, which evaporates, so it is a nice light finish, providing you don't go overboard. I'll try to get to a good, digital scale soon, and weigh my 'experimental' square foot and give the weight in grams, compared to a square foot of monokote.

    If the CL stunt guys who are even more freaked about a gram here or there than we are can get away with doping their models, why can't we?!


  5. #305
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    mcmike, thanks for the info on the Brodak dope process. I am looking forward to getting started with this. I will purchase a HPLV gun and I already have a compressor, just need to regulate it down and filter it. On another thread rainedave did about the same except for the first two coats on the frame. He used a different method as shown in the quote below. All in all I have been convinced that it is well worth my time to do this and just need to nail down the process and get prepared. Your info further convinces me that this is the way to go and I much appreciate it.[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif] I would be much interested in the sq.ft of covering weights and some pics of the finish on you model would be cool too. If you don't mind me asking where did you get the Brodak? I understand this is good stuff.

    ORIGINAL: rainedave

    I also covered the wing with Sig Koverall today. This stuff works so well it's scary. First, I applied full-strength, unthinned nitrate dope to the LE, TE, center section and tips using a foam brush. I put on about three coats, until the surface looked shiny. Then I sanded off any lumps or runs until everything was smooth. I laid the Koverall over the wing half and brushed straight thinner on top of the fabric. Using my finger, I rubbed the thinner through the fabric until it dissolved the nitrate dope beneath. This adheres the fabric to the wing.

    I attached the covering the same way I would with plastic film, pulling and tacking it down while stretching it tight. Unlike iron-on film, it is very easy to release the fabric with more thinner if you need to reposition an area or pull out a wrinkle. Once I had the Koverall completely adhered I let the dissolved dope dry for a few minutes and then shrunk it tight over the open bays with my iron. If any wrinkles or loose spots remain, you simple wet the area with thinner and rub it down.

    Next, I sprayed on three light coats of clear butyrate dope to fill the weave. Koverall fills a lot faster than silk, which can take as many as eight coats to completely fill. It also doesn't pull and run like silk can. The next step is to put on a few coats of the primer and get rid of the line where the fabric stops. If you've ever thought about an alternative to iron-on film, please try Koverall. It's incredibly user-friendly stuff. And, it won't sag or bubble over time. What's a couple more hours work for a finish that will last fifty years?

    Also, thanks to RCU for letting members devour so much space with unlimited images!
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  6. #306

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    I ordered the dope direct from http://www.brodak.com/

    Also, check on the StitsLite covering system. I was going to go the silk n' Dope route, but had trouble getting the silk to shrink properly. So, with a phone call to stits, I went that route. They've got an entire system including fabric, adhesive, and finishes that are supposed to work excellent together, being all polyester based. check them out at http://www.stits.com/

    Hopefully, i'll get that last coat of clear on this weekend, and post some pics!

    BTW, I just picked up a MW Extra 300s (flat elevator) yesterday for a winter project, and plan on doing the Stits with the polyfiber system on it. Plan on powering with a 3.2 or bme50, not sure which yet. I'm really curious if my 'flat' elevator fuse could be converted over the the airfoiled elevator. If anyone has a set of just the elevator plans they could part with, i'd sure appreciate it!

    mcmike


  7. #307
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Be glad to help you out with the plans mike. I have a full set. I have to have a copy made that is acurate somehow though. Thanks for the info.
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  8. #308

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    + Pictures

    today beginning with monokote


    Greetings

    Jorge L.
    Valdivia
    Chile
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  9. #309
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    ORIGINAL: jlezana

    + Pictures

    today beginning with monokote


    Greetings

    Jorge L.
    Valdivia
    Chile



    Hi there what engine are you using in there .

    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  10. #310
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    ORIGINAL: jlezana

    Hello Digger, I send the photos to you of my airplane with its motor here 3w 48bi that will install to him, This motor has 5 test flights and it belonged to Quique Somenzini, that it control to makes to increasing it its power, I hope does not fail to me, has a helix Menz 20 x 10, the exhaust pipes are manually made, for smaller weight, already will send a photo to them of them.

    Greetings.

    Jorge Lezana
    Valdivia
    Chile
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  11. #311
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Hummmmm I would think that twin would be just the ticket ,nice and smooth with plenty of pull.
    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  12. #312

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Here I leave advances them of monokote


    Greetings


    Jorge Lezana
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  13. #313
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    So far looking great ,I covered mine with Monokote also.you can't see it to well on my pic in my av ,if I can I'll get a better pic and put it in my gallery.If you haven't flown that 300 before you will like it alot just make sure theres plenty of servo power and the balances are on the spot.
    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  14. #314
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Digger you got your extra finished yet?

  15. #315
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    I am ordering the Brodak dope as we speak, already have the koverall. Also just ordered a touch up HVLP spray gun and should get started covering in a couple weeks if all goes well. I still have to get the forward wing mount figured out though. Cyberwolf had trouble with his and I will try something different. No sense in going through the same. I will start posting this thread again as I get started covering. Should be an experience for me.

    jlezena, that looks great. I can't wait to get started with mine.
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  16. #316
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Hey Digger when I changed from nylon bolts to steel my problems went away .If they would have been a shorter bolt I think the nylon would have been fine but there so dang long and stretch and give some , I was afraid to tighten them down anymore than I did for fear of the heads popping off .The way its made its all but impossible to use dowels .
    I'll be anxious to see what sort of a arrangement you come up with.
    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  17. #317
    Digger44's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    What I was actually thinking about doing was to cut another width of plywood and extend the front wing mount across the frame under the original blocks and use 1/4-20 blind nuts instead of the threaded ply. Then using steel bolts I shouldn't have any issues. I am really just concerned about tightening steel bolts down in the original threads. After a while they may strip and loosen up. I may use the blind nuts the same at the rear of the wing as well.
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  18. #318
    Cyberwolf's Avatar
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    I agree with you there ,sounds like a good plan .
    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  19. #319

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Final photos of the fuselage, it even needs some details. The engine hood will paint the next week and plows special painting in its superior part, I leave a future design them.


    Greetings

    Jorge Lezana
    Valdivia
    Chile
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  20. #320

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Digger,
    I hope that when you ordered that dope From Brodak, you ordered at least the same amount of thinner, and about 25% Retarder. It's great dope, don't get me wrong. But it MUST be thinned at least 50% minimum for brushing, more for spraying. I've been thinning it 50-50 then adding about 10% retarder, and coming up with great results. It flows out well, and does have a pretty good gloss to it, even without the clear coat. I just finished the trim colors on my Giant Aeromaster yesterday, going to start shooting the clear coat today. I'll try to get some pics up soon.

    and get yourself a ventilator! You'll wish you had if you don't. Even trying to shoot in the garage with the door wide open was too much. Got a ventilator, now everything is great!

    Have you got a trim scheme in mind?

    mcmike

  21. #321

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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Hello Friends, I let the some photos of the first tests of the extra, if the climate allows it flew Sunday today, to trimar it Greetings Jorge Lezana
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  22. #322
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
    Hey Digger when I changed from nylon bolts to steel my problems went away .If they would have been a shorter bolt I think the nylon would have been fine but there so dang long and stretch and give some , I was afraid to tighten them down anymore than I did for fear of the heads popping off .The way its made its all but impossible to use dowels .
    I'll be anxious to see what sort of a arrangement you come up with.
    Don't be too quick to use the word impossible. Actually, in the building stage, dowells in the front of the wing are easy. This was a little harder, as they were retro fitted into an existing, pre-built wing.

    Once the dowells are installed and holes are drilled in alignment on F2, the only other requirement needed to mount/unmount the wing is a slight angle on the back side of the wing at the saddle where it meets F3. If left square, it cannot angle in or out to accomodate the dowells up front.

    Sand a slight angle on the rear edge of the wing. Next, to fill the void and ensure a tight fit, add an angled plate of balsa to the front of F3. Now if useing steel bolts, the rear ones are shorter and lighter. I used nylon and if strength is a concern, just jump up to the next diameter. Joe
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    Stranger in a strange place.

  23. #323
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    Thats just it you have to do something to the back on the wing for it to be allowed to be slid in place using dowels, which I wasn't going to do to a new plane covered and ready to fly. Impossible NO sorry I used to strong of a word nothing is impossible, just takes longer .One would think as many of these planes is out there that this issue should not be a problem.
    Had I of known of this before I had the plane finsihed and flew it ,you could have bet I would have changed the way the wing attaches . If the steel bolts give me any trouble at all you can bet I will tear it apart and add the dowels .
    I'm not getting allot of movement just enough to see where the covering it trying to wear a little at the front of the wing saddle ,which btw is a good tight fit ,but thats to much in my book .Anyway thanks for the tip.
    If you can\'\'t fix it with a hammer, you\'\'ve got an electrical problem.

  24. #324
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    OOPS!!I did order the thinner but probably not enough (32oz) . Also didn't order the retarder. [sm=71_71.gif]Guess I'll be making another order. This will ,I assure you, be a learning process for me. It's so windy today I'll probably get started on the rudder and elev. Thought I'de start there first. I am planning on using Stix-it instead of nitrate on the frame and the first coat or two after applying the koverall will be nitrate. Then come with the Brodak primer and color and finally the clear-coat. I am not sure at this point how I will be doing the fuse weather it be all koverall or a mix of fiberglass and koverall. I intend to do a little experimenting on some sheeting to see how it turns out before moving on. I also still need to get by the building supply and pick up a respirator that is suitable before starting any coats.

    I don't really have a trim scheme in mind yet just the base colors and an idea of a 60's scheme overall. I would love to see some pics of your progress. Again, Thanks for the tips.
    Bob
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"

  25. #325
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    RE: Midwest Extra 300xs Build

    I really like the covering jlezena, That turned out Great. Please report on the flight, would love to hear.
    \"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don\'t, none will suffice\"


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