glowplugboy

My Feedback: (17)

I have been flying R/C for over 25 years now, and vaguely remember my training sessions with THE trainer of the day, the Goldberg Falcon 56. I enjoy training students today, and overall, I believe the trainer designs are better for first time flyers. I have always been a little struck by how so many flyers, once soloed, never seem to advance beyond a trainer.

My question arrises out of this experience: I wonder how many novice pilots, once soloed, go beyond the trainer, and then to what level? I bet some of the kit mfgs. have some stats on trainer kits and arf trainers sold, and I wonder where it goes from there? Very open ended questions, but you thoughts, opinions?

Crashem

Thats an interesting question but since this is the beginners forum the responses might not be as numerous

Me personnally I've flown/Fly sport models low wing high wing shoulder wing but I always try to have a trainer in flyable condition.

As far as progressing in this hobby I think to much emphasis is placed (here and at the field) on moving to that "second" plane and alot of the modelers I've seen really haven't "mastered" the trainer yet but prouldly bring out that second plane and begin to develop bad flying habits...

My question to you is when does one "know" that its time for their second plane.. And please don't say after crashing the first

den1tjb

Once PROFICIENT on a trainer, the trend in my club is to move on to a high with airplanes with a symmetrical/semi-symmetrical airfoil. Kit or ARF, really doesn't matter. My second plane was a GP Easy Sport 40. It gave me chance to learn basic aerobatics while still having the forgiving nature of high wing aircraft.I would recommend something similar to a GP Big Stik 40 or something similar.
But I do emphasize being proficient on a trainer, even if it means buying two or three before moving on. Learning aerobatics is a dead end road unless you can take off, land, and control your own aircraft with some degree of proficiency.

Just my thoughts

Ty

Groundforce-RCU

My Feedback: (20)

I went to a 4 star 60 after a total of 12 flights on my LT 40. I dusted one of 2 of the 4 stars only after a month. I chaulk that up to inexperience, I got it into a spin and fought every control to try n bring it back. (afterwards found out I shoulda let go of the controls).
I now own a Kangke studuacher GS 300. I have a total of 9 gallons of flight since I soloed in July this past summer.

TerrellFlyer

Agree with Crashem 100% on people[I won't use the word pilot]jumping to another plane,usually what I would consider a third or fourth model in the learning scale and truth is they really can't handle a trainer.Sure on a calm day with a small crowd they can get airborne,jerk it around a little,got to shout I'm 3ding,then bounce it across the run way a dozen times,if they hit the runway,then show every one the 10# landing gear on there plane because the gear that came with the plane kept bending after cutting a 6" grove half way across the field.I think a lot of the problem is peer pressure.Nearly every trainer on the market will do most of all the aerobatics,agree not as precise,but if in trouble will help recover. I fly many planes of different sizes and still have a trainer,It will out fly most of the club because most of the guys were in a hurry for the next plane but didn't take time to learn the skills.

flyingfever

You can count me in the ranks of those who got past the first trainer... but just barely.

I 'flew' my second plane for the first time this past weekend. Really, my instructor took it up to shake it down. I got to hold the box just long enough to get a sense of how much more fun a mid-wing will be when I finally park my trainer.

I burned almost (3) gallons of fuel on my trainer before I soloed. Another gallon since then.

Am I 'proficient' yet on my trainer? Probably not, but I have enough confidence in my abilities to take-off and land even when a crowd gathers. (Why do they all gather when I take to the air?). And I enjoy working with the trainer for what it is worth. That is; take-off, fly the pattern, line up on the runway, land in good shape. All the while watching more experienced members and learning about good flying etiquette and safety.

How far will I progress? Unfortunately for my finances, I see no end in sight right now. I'm already looking at a third plane to get building on. Both my PT40 and Easy Sport where kits. I enjoy building almost as much as flying.

I'll keep doing this until they pass a law against it. Maybe even after that!

Fever

phayd

I think the other side of the coin is true as well. I've basically learned that I'm landing my trainer hard because I am flying too fast, which is intentional. I was hoping that it would grow with me as I try more difficult things. I know that more advanced planes require a fast landing speed, so I wanted to practice this. The problem is that the trainer won't allow this, as to lose altitude in a flare, you must be moving very slow.

I'm expecting more from my trainer than what it is designed for. Have I learned everything that it has to teach me? No, a loop is the only way I can invert it. Will I fly it until it has taught me everything it can? Yes. Will I purchase another plane to fly before I decide it has taught me everything? Probably.

The question is, what is the list of skills that a trainer should allow you to perfect? What are the signs that you need a different plane?

glowplugboy

My Feedback: (17)

A very good start to the thread. When I train someone to the point they are soloed, I then encourage them to now really master their skills with their trainer, i.e., fly the wings off of it to the point it becomes boring, THEN they are ready for that next step, a mild low winger or an aerobatic shoulder winger. The chance of sucess goes up dramatically, and perhaps this person is on their way to having a life long hobby, not something that lasts a few months or maybe a year or too, cut short by frustration from lack of sucess.

TerrellFlyer

Evening phayd,wasn't trying to shoot any one down,just stating what I see at our clubs,with a trainer a pilot can barrel roll,roll, 4 point roll, 1/2 roll then back either direction,fly straight,fly straight inverted,flat turns with rudder,slip the plane with rudder,stall turns,tail slides,cross wind take off and landings,deadstick landings,touch and goes,spins and inverted spins,also snaps.Agree the spins and snaps aren't a thing of beauty,but they can be recognized,the nice part is if one gets in trouble learning the controls the trainer can save the day,my Ultimate only gets worse if one messes up,if one learns this basics while on the trainer then the other modles are easy to master,you only need to get the timing down,most people including me try to land as soft and easy as possible.

Dogz

I'm as green as they get, I had 4 lesions and just did proficiency test on Monday. Been flying every morning since and looking at a

Phoenix Dolphin
Phoenix Extra 300 suit 45 motors
Great Planes Super Sportster 40 Sport model to suit 40 – 46 motors

Plan to purchase this weekend swap all the servos out my Kadet LT40 and motor into my new plane.


I am having a hoot!.... Unless I'm going a million miles an hour vertical and inverted I'm not having fun!..

I think I have the BUG!..this hobby is fantastic!!

Tattoo

This is extreamly interesting. Over the years, if everyone I have seen at the field with a trainer stuck with the hobby, our club would have hundreds more members.

As for the capibilities of a trainer, I haden't flown a trainer in many years and the majority of my flying has been combat planes designed to roll fast and turn hard. About a year ago the need arose for me to design a trainer for a lovely lady (totally different story). It flew better than we ever expected so I built another one to photograph for on line plans. My intent was to give it away once it was done. To my suprise it is capible of any conventional aerobatic maneuver in the book. Even with a flat bottomed airfoil, inverted flight is a piece of cake. Yes, it's slow, but it still does everything I ask it. My enjoyment of this airplane is such that I've kept it, and it's my favorite Sunday afternoon lazy sport flyer. With this experience, I'm going to have to side with the discussion to fly the wings off a trainer untill you have all the fancy stuff mastered, because the trainer can do it. Once you are comfortable with the split-s's, cuban 8's, aileron roll's etc... and you are doing them comfortably, low enough that a mistake would be fatal, and every landing hits it's mark... then is a good time to think about that next hot airplane. You'll have the confidance to fly it. Spending all winter building that dream plane as your second or 3rd project, only to see it explode because you were'nt ready could very easily get someone to dust off their golf clubs.

Crashem

phayd I'm also not trying to shoot anyone down... But I think you are missing an important point.. Learning to land your trainer faster Won't make you ready for that faster plane because the flight characteristics glide slopes etc.. are different!!! If you really want to get ready for that high speed plane LEARN to make your trainer fly EXACTLY how you want it For example when you do a loop make it round start and finish at the same altitude. When LANDING pick a spot on the runnway and concentrate on putting the plane there gently everytime If you have to do half a loop to get inverted increase your elevetor throws and or move the CG.

Again everybody's Idea of a good flight and pilot is different to me I consider it a good flight when the plane does exactly what I want it to. I even go as far as to decide before take what I want to do Loops, Rolls, Inverted landings whatever then I do that and only that...

A friend and I use to practice landings by placing a marker next to the runway and seeing who could land on the mark.

When I was learning the guys at the club had a term for flights that just looked a little on the wild side it was called letting the plane get ahead of you Since I started agian that style of flying seems to be the rule rather then the exception... Just my opinion

Also I don't believe measuring flight time in terms of fuel spent is accurate unless some type of structured training course is used.. Burning tons of fuel and holes in the sky doesn't neccessarily equate to increase skills or proficiency

tinker-RCU

i fly behind my barn on a home made strip. about twenty yrs. now. i still have my gentle lady wing and kadat sienor wings hanging in my shop.

Prboz-RCU-delete

I made my first take off and landing just last weekend and I was very happy. may not be my second plane but I have a 5 year project on the go which is a 60 size F4U Corsair. From my trainer I hope to advance to a mid / low wing something 60 size. But at the moment I'll stick with my Sonic 25 and learn to land takeoff and all that jazz blind folded.

Crashem

Sorry I don't think I directly answered your question...


1. Take-offs - be able to keep the model tracking down the center line and perform a realistic climb out (i.e. don't yank it at a 90 degree angle)

2. Pattern & Truns - be able to consistenlty hold an altitude while flying the pattern especially when turning.

3. Mild aerobatics - loops shoud be round and start and end at same altitude. rolls should not drastically alter models flight path for example gaining and losing altitude while rolling is a no no
Inverted flight should be entered and exitied at the same altitude.

4. Approachs & Landings should be consistent and use proper amounts of throtle and rudder (when required, you should also know when to use rudder) Throtle management and control are the marks of a goood landing. Practice, Practice more practice

5. Confidence when your confident in your ability to fly your airplane and Know its particular behavaior.. ITS know time to do it again at a lower Altitude!!!!

Alot of people complain that loops and rolls and inverted flight with a trainer are boring... If your bored try a loop that starts and ends at 10ft. Try some low inverted passes.

When you have the skills to do this consistently I think then your more then ready for that second plane... Then the fun begins agian because its time to learn the next models particular flying characterics... and the next and so on!!!!

BTW I personally think making consistently good landing on a trainer in various wind conditions is harder then doing it with a "higher performing sport model"

AWACS

I am definately hooked and plan to be in this hobby for sometime...now I doubt i will be able to hit the field every day i would like too...but definatley when conditions and time permits i will be there...have flow twice now and totally love it. And when your instructor asks you if your snowballing them on never flying before....that gives ya a definate boost of enthusiasm and confidence. [ALL those COMPTUER games can pay off : )] I think I will get more ingulfed in the hobby even more the better i get and the more confident I get...I have friends that all say they want to go fly but their trainers collect dust after they have flown a few times and honestly I think i know why...Every show up at the field...NO instructor...INstructor..no buddy box...Instructor..wrong TX...i know some of them have told me that they would get more into it if they didnt run into these problems...I am more patient I guess...have spent most this year overseas...<--In military btw...but I am trying to get to the field as much as I can before i ship out for HOPEFULLY my last trip overseas for awhile. THEN FULL STEAM ahead....

This hobby is great...I have a 9 year old daughter and it is really fun taking her to the field...i even signed her up for AMA ...and she wsn't too interested in R/C planes till this last weekend we went and she saw me flying and now she is wanting a plane!!!! So...instead of a plane...she will be getting some time on the GP flight sim : ) Let's see how long it holds her interest.

This is a great Hobby!!!

TerrellFlyer

Hi Crashem,had to grin,sometimes I feel like he even left.

vanman

My Feedback: (2)

Well, after reading everything that everyone has to say, I just couldn't keep my two cents to myself. I started flying in August, first time out I landed the plane. A few weeks later I soloed and got signed off. I went to the field every day possible most of the summer. I got bored with the trainer and moved on to Thunder Tiger Cloud Dancer and also a 48" stop sign. What I find is that after every few flights with the other planes, I always end up back on the trainer doing things that I am comfortable with only on the trainer! I am continuing to fly the other planes to continue to build the confidence with them as well, but I suggest that when you go to the field, you bring along old reliable.

When will I quit taking the trainer to field? Probably never, it seems that no matter what I am flying (even my aeroworks 300 profile) I like to end the day with a slow relaxing flight with the trainer.

By the way, the new project at hand is the 35% 300 extra build along in the AMA magazine. Anyone have 3W or DA100 for sale?

5 months into the sport and 10 planes in the basement. All of them flyable, guess I got the bug.....ya think?

vegas mossie

I acutually had to solo on my "second plane", as I had torn the landing gear out of my trainer. Building a Tiger 60 for my third plane. (second was a easy sport 40) belongs to my son now.

tiggerinmk

Very interesting thread so far...

I think I'm on about my sixth trainer (most of 'em are still alive), and only now do I think I might have the right plane to enable me to progress..

Here's the list:

Superstar 60: Good stable plane but OS.65LA took a lot of fiddling and time to run in. I also couldn't seem to get much instructor time and I didn't want to risk wrecking it myself...

GWS Tiger Moth: Got it to practice in the local park, great plane, still going...

Sturdy Birdy: Had an engine and radio that was supposed to go in a Seniorita then saw this in the shop. Figured I could try flying it myself...Damn thing's a flying brick, after several unsuccessful flights and a conversion to trike gear, its still not dead yet...

Ripmax Zephyr: Looks like a giant park flyer and flys like one, got an OS.15LA in mine (can be electric too). I think I can fly it in my sleep now but the club won't give me my 'solo dot' for it as its only a 3 channel floater (quite right too).

Back to the Superstar 60: A flight without the buddy box resulted in me putting it through a tree; repaired, I flew solo with it and 'landed' it 50ft up another tree (RIP).

Hobbistar 60: Instructor took off, I flew around, instructor landed. Nice plane, a bit faster than the Superstar and I'm a little paranoid about trees. Result? Save it for 2nd plane (or is that 3rd, or 4th.?..)

LT-40: Just putting it together now. Looks lightweight, same size as Superstar/Hobbistar but lighter and with more dihedral. I'm confident about this one...

As you can see from my experience, I'm very worried about people who jump straight from something like a LT-40 to a fast low winger.... the advice above is very good but some people don't have the patience.

Someone at our field recently went from an Avistar to a TT stick right after soloing, and another flies a Magic as a contrast to GWS electrics... I think I'm gonna start wearing a hard hat to the field...

omerniar

As I talk to people I find that a lot of them have had a plane at one time or another. They find the one they want and don't take the time to learn. Now that you can buy almost anything RTF they take it out, put it in the ground and never look back. I still have not soloed and I have ran into the problem of getting some time, racing to the field and have no one there. There is nothing more frustrating than to have your plane in the car and not be able to fly. I'ts hard to be dependent on someone else to learn. I want to build a second plane but I don't know where everybody else finds the time.

glowplugboy

My Feedback: (17)

I presume your club does not have designated instructors? If not, would a local hobby shop be able to get you hooked up with one? I can certainly relate to time.... I would love to build a couple of sport planes right now, but they would be 6 month projects.

tiggerinmk

My club has instructors but no designated training time. Apparantly, the set time arrangement didn't work so they scrapped it. Now you have to go to the field and hope there's someone there. I also feel that I'm intruding on their flying time and therefore lose out to someone more assertive who doesn't mind hogging instructor time. Also, there appear to be an etreme shortage of instructors who actually regularly attend the field.

I work and have a family, so I don't have the time to build a kit. I've got a pair of Seniorita wings sitting on the shelf which have been there for maybe a year witing for me to build the rest of it.

I just bought an LT-40 last Saturday, been doing some work on it each night this week, hoping to have it ready for the w/end. At least with an ARF, the family only have to cope with me disappearing for a few nights....

glowplugboy

My Feedback: (17)

I am an instructor in my club, and I have no problems with trainees calling me up and arranging for some flight time. Get in touch with a club instructor, they want to help. And if they don't, then why are they instructors???

NOVAflier

My Feedback: (21)

I just want to comment here, I think one of the main things with progression to the second plane has to do with the thought of "it's an ugly trainer". Now, I have very little stick time yet, I have the LT-40 and a Sig Senior Kadet ARF (Which I consider to be one of the better looking trainers). Of course I want to move on to a Venture 60, but why rush it? It's alot of money to watch fly into the ground.

But overall, I think people want to progress quicker because they want to get a plane that is nicer looking. I really like the Cessna's. and I ogle them in the catalogs all the time, then I load up my Realflight, switch from the trainer (that I can fly pretty good), to a low wing intermediate, think of it as my next Venture or Cessna, plow it into the ground because I don;t know how to accuratly handle yet, and realize, "yup, back to the trainer"