bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Well, let's try some analogies:

"Saleen and Ford are the same company. Ford makes the Mustang. Saleen Mustangs are the same car, only different."

"Wal-Mart and Ocean Spray are the same company. Wal-Mart sells cranberry juice, both Wal-mart brand and Ocean Spray. Ocean Spray makes and bottles both brands of juice at their bottling plant and ships them to Wal-Mart."

"Acer and Toshiba are the same company. Toshiba sells notebook computers in Acer clamshells assembled at Acer factories. Toshiba and Acer are in bed together."

All of the above statements are similar to:

"Spektrum and JR are the same company. Spektrum radios are made by JR in JR radio cases and sold with JR servos. JR and Spektrum are the same."

JR and Spektrum have something very large in common with one another, namely Horizon Hobby. JR is an OEM manufacturer of Radio Control products who manufactures items to be sold around the world. Spektrum is a brand name and a set of intellectual property owned by one of JR's distributors, Horizon Hobby, who resells and distrubutes JR products in the North American marketplace. JR has other distributors throughout the world, and Horizon Hobby distributes for a lot of other companies besides JR in the North American marketplace.

The Spektrum product line is actually very similar in concept to the Tower Hobbies brand product line sold through Tower Hobbies. Futaba supplies radios, servos, and other accessories per Tower Hobbies' specifications to be resold under the Tower Hobbies brand name. JR supplies radios, servos, and other accessories per Horizon Hobby's specifications to be resold under the Spektrum brand name.

No matter how much you like cranberry juice, Wal-Mart and Ocean Spray aren't the same company.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Don't pm me again on this subject. If you don't like what I have to say, and if you can't imagine that, it was said totally in jest, then please swallow your pride and forget that I wrote it in here.

I repeat.. do NOT PM me about it again. Any more of that and I will complain bitterly to the management.

DS.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

Who PM'd Whom?
As long as we aren't talking about me, because I haven't PM'd anyone on the subject. Please clarify whom you are speaking of.

MikeL:
First, it was clearly stated not to make this a flaming war. I, sir, am an adult. Please do not talk to me in statements like "I suggest you..."

Now, aside from that,
I never said that Walmart and Ocean Spray were the same product. I said that wal-marts brand of /whatever/ and the brand name of /whatever/ are the same products. For example, their brand of bread rolls off side by side with Wonder, or whomever they have their contract with.

If you agree that the radio's are produced side by side, with the same components, then why is it so hard to swallow that they are the same? If you buy one, you are buying the other. Period.
Are Danny and the others lying? I don't know, but i bet not--not knowingly. They are repeating what they are told, and what they are told to say to keep their job's and relationships with the other parties.

Are GMC and Chevy the same? Are they not owned by the same company? If so, then why do they continue to produce both brands? Oh, because some people wouldn't touch one brand with a ten foot pole, but would buy the other brand in a heartbeat. Maybe that is smart business and marketing? I guess we dont' want to give JR too much credit to be able to think beyond the box in marketing.

As much as you can sit and personally attack me and ridicule my ideas, and my inability to change my mind, you do the same thing. I am certainly glad that other's have jumped in. There is a lot of value in this discussion. I have not attacked one single person for believing that they are two separate companies, yet I continue to get attacked by one particular poster for my belief that they are--just because I refuse to believe what the company is telling us--what they want us to know. I appreciate other's point of views who do not attack us personally. I assure you, MikeL, that I am plenty capable intellectually to keep up with you.

The value in this discussion is to let others (as I've stated before), who are on the bubble but are worried about a new brand name, know that they would still be buying from a reputable company if they purchase a spektrum radio.

Dr1Driver

But who really gives a rat's rump? Does it REALLY matter? As long as the radio functions properly, and does what the user needs it to do, ALL other points are moot.

My radio can beat up your radio.

Dr.1

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Well, that makes sense. If you would have said, "Spektrum radios and JR radios are the same," then this thread wouldn't exist. You said that "Spektrum is JR" and that they are the same company.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

DR,
You have a valid point, except that I believe my radio has already beaten up your radio more than a few times!

This was mainly in response to other posters--not just one particular thread, but many--that I have come across who are uncomfortable buying a new brand of radio. Before buying my dx7, I searched and read all of the threads and it seams to be a common occurence in most of them--new company, new technology, I think I'll wait until one of the majors comes out with one. Or, I think I'll wait until it's been out for a while.

I certainly think it's the wave of the future. I wonder if people had the same concerns of going from AM to FM, and of going from analog to digital, and of storing planes instead of having multiple radios. I know a lot of old timers who still have a radio for each plane. Good stuff!

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I PM'd him, asking him why a person would complain about a thread being dragged off topic in a way that drags it more off topic, and why a person would do that twice. Why he posted about it here, I don't know. You'd really have to ask him. I'd suggest sending him a PM, but he doesn't like PMs and you don't like suggestions.

Where did I personally attack you? I made a suggestion for how to stop confusing the relationships involved. That's not a flame war.

There isn't much value in this discussion because we keep talking passed each other. You continually state that the radios have the same components, and I continually agree with you on that. Where we disagree is on whether Spektrum is the same business entity as JR. You say they are, based on the spurious conclusion that similar products imply that there is really just one business involved. I keep trying to tell you that's a faulty premise.

Because I'm telling you that you're wrong and your logic is flawed, I'm flaming you? Please. I'm not insulting you. I'm not being disrespectful to you. I'm asking you questions and trying to give you some ideas on how to work towards my position.

skeeter_ca

Some people just seem to be into brands too much. Porsche, Farrari, Ford. What's the difference? Oops. Didn't mean the Ford part.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

The problem is that I am not going to work toward your position, and you are not going ot work toward mine. What you think is flawed I think is not. What you call Spurious, I call real. I didnt' simply open the box and say--hey, same case, same company. Not at all. Explain something that you still have not, since you seem to know so much about marketing.

I can understand a component or two, but why would JR sell spektrum essentially everything they need to grab ahold of a new, untapped, unsaturated market? Now, once JR introduces one with their own name on it, it will be in strict competition to an already established brand. Did Horizon send some goons with guns to Japan and force them to do it?

Semantics will be semantics. Once again, quack, quack, quack. What exactly did spektrum, if they are a separate company, come up with on their own here--the modulation?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Lawyers, I'm guessing, rather than goons. The fellow who developed Horizon's SS implementation either works for Horizon or has given them some sort of exclusivity as to the use of the patents involved. JR may simply be behind the curve on developing SS technology. Futaba was a step slow. Who knows if Hitec has the resources to develop their own implementation? It's also an open-ended question for Sanwa (distributed by Airtronics here in the US). All the evidence suggests that the big boys got caught somewhat flat-footed when it comes to SS. The history of business is full of examples of such things. Look at the computer industry. IBM couldn't innovate as quickly as the start-ups in desktop OSes in the late 1970s. What did they do? They licensed MS's software. In the 1980s they couldn't compete in hardware innovation--Compaq made their name by beating IBM to the 386.

Why would JR license its designs to Spektrum and act as an OEM for them? Better to have a slice of the pie than no slice at all. Spektrum could have partnered with someone else. The only company they likely couldn't have swung a deal with would be Futaba, as Hobbico has Futaba's distribution rights locked up in the US. I'd bet Hitec would have been willing to partner with Spektrum--after all, they partner in the same way with the Tower Hobbies brand.

Go back and read up on when the DX6 came out. You'll find a Horizon employee talking about how they wanted to make the DX6 in a 6102 form factor, but JR would only sell them the outdated 662 form factor. It turns out Spektrum had designed the internals of the DX6 to fit the 6102 form factor, which is why so many people were able to take DX6 guts and easily place them in 6102s.

That line of thinking also explains why we've only seen a DX6 and DX7. How much clamoring in the Radio forum is going on for a DX9? Same thing goes for the high-end of the market. If Spektrum had unlimited access to JR designs and parts, they'd have produced the DX6 in the 6102 case--that much is stated fact. My supposition is that if JR had opened up the whole store, we'd have seen Spektrum go after the high-end market. That's where the big margins are.

It also makes incredible sense for Horizon to want to work with JR--they already have a close relationship. There's no need to retrain customer service and repair service staff members on a whole new line of equipment--the changes are minimal in terms of parts that must be stocked and procedures that must be changed.

My guess is that we'll see Spektrum come out with original designs within a few years. Watch Graupner over in Europe--I think they're still rebranding JR equipment over there (under your logic does that mean JR owns Graupner?). Who's distributing Spektrum in Europe? I don't know. It'll be interesting to see if JR comes out with their own SS implementation, or if they license Spektrum's.

This is still a very young market. Think back to when I asked you why Futaba introduced negative shift into the US market. That same reason is driving Spektrum's modules for JR and Futaba radios--get people to make a significant investment in proprietary receivers, and you'll likely lock them in as a customer for a considerable period of time.

bruce88123

It's not PM's that CGRetired doesn't like or want. He and I have exchanged several pleasant PM's and emails in the recent past. He just doesn't want to discuss this anymore.

Mr67Stang

Okay Best I can see from an admitedly cursory search is that Spectrum is a company that makes the TX/RX modules and currently sells them to JR and Futaba. I imagine eventually Hitech and yes even Airtronics (that was for you Ken), if they wish to stay in bussiness will jump on board with this tech. http://www.spektrumrc.com/

Untill they come out with one of these in an 8 channel system I wont buy one any way. I already have a 6 Channel and do not have to fuss to fly my frequency. I understand The DX7 is a 7 channel system and Futaba's new one will be a lousy 6 channels. But Futaba's improvement of having a single receiver is nice and makes it worth the wait to see if they get to 8 Channels with it. The Specktrum DX7 is a nice system reguardless of who makes it (Spectrum with JR parts) and I would recomend it to anyone who does not already have a vast squadron of planes as it is the beginning of a new era of R/C that will make our 72 MHz FM/PPM systems as high end as an AM Tx/Rx. I bet our old 72 MHz frequencies end up in the Toys R' Us and Radio Shack toy R/C's.

bruce88123

Mr67Stang - First it's spelled Spektrum. Second they don't sell TO JR or Futaba. They sell modules that work WITH JR or Futaba radios. Third they already sell modules that have 9 channels.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...rodID=SPMMSJR9

Mr67Stang

I apologize if my mispelling of "SPEKTRUM" offended you. So for those of us that do not have swapable module radios.... Yep still waiting.

bruce88123

I've got a module radio but I'm still gonna wait too and I was not offended.

skaap2k

I might be new here, but part/technology/production line sharing is nothing new.. nothing new at all.

Take Audi & Volkswagen for example.

In Europe, the VW Golf and the Audi A3 are manufactured on the same production line, they share the same engines, the same electronic components etc.

They are different companies, although one owns the other - doesnt make them the same.
The difference in the product is the Marque. I'd much rather say that I drive a Audi rather than a VW.

(That said, I do drive a VW Golf, and I love my car!!)

Anyway. hoping to assemble my first ARTF plane this weekend...

chashint

Why would anyone care so much ?
It is just a piece of equipment.
Buy the one you want and if it works the way you expect it to feel good about it.

JollyPopper

My Feedback: (6)

HUH?

carmatic1

is it a worser idea to buy one brand than it is to buy another ? like, you get better customer support with one brand, or they generally have higher build quality, or something

bruce88123

People tend to develope favorites. Top lines are IMO about the same. Each has its good/bad points.

You need to decide what features you think you want and do some research.

AIRDEL

Well I don't have the knowledge to talk about the whole Spektrum/JR deal but if it clears the juice thing up I can state with confidence that Walmart and Sam's club juice is made by Cliffstar (NOT OCEANSPRAY). Cliffstar is a "Private label" company. They don't sell "Cliffstar Juice" But if you want your name on juice and have the dollars they will bottle all you can drink. They are in contention with Ocean spray as the largest manufacturer of juice. Most have never heard of the company.

This is not to be argumentative in any way, shape or form. Just to put the idea out there about "Private labeling"

What about that Tracker system? Just to change things up a bit.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

Tracker system? You mean Polks? Their stuff is all original. Someone makes their stuff, but it's all their design. I've not seen a case like theirs, other than theirs.
Yes, I've heard of cliffstar. In fact, I believe there is (or used to be) a factory in Paris, TX. They had their sign on the outside of the same building as ocean spray--or used to, anyway. It's been a while since I lived over that way.

k3 valley flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Mike L your post 35 is a very good analysis. Only the Horizon and JR insiders know all the reasons why they chose to bring SS to market under a new Brand Name. Could be JR wanted Horizon to help foot some of the R&D costs, could be JR wanted to protect the brand equity it has in their existing 72mz prodcuts for awhile, etc etc. The issue to me as a consmumer is how long before my considerable investment in 72mz receivers is worthless because the FCC and AMA decide to make 72mz illegal for RC use? That scenario is possible and similar to what happened going to narrow band in 1991. AMA claims they will protect us on 72mz but all their articles are sales promotions for SS and they say little about saving 72mz for us. I am not against SS but 72mz has worked very well for many of us for many years and we have alot of $ tied up in it. My attitude is an example of a negative market reaction to a new technology and also an example of why companies use "New Labels" to sell more widgets and preserve the market share of the old widgets. The study of the process of introduction and acceptance or non acceptance of new technologies is a whole area of course study available to physcology and sociology and marketing students, and a complex and tricky game at best. There are lots of new technologies that even though very promising were not accepted by the public for lots of different reasons. Is it better, is it cheaper, is it needed, is it simpler, is it easier to use etc etc Some technologies meet all these tests and don't get adopted by the public, some other technologies fail some of these tests and the public eats them up (cell phones!) As in everything time and the market will decide.

zetor

My Feedback: (2)

This is a test post. I did not want to clutter a constructive thread and I chose this one.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

K3 has hit the nail on the head with that one as far as I'm concerned. I am willing to concede the fact that I don't know for sure that they are the same company, or under the same operations. I know, however, that the opposition will not concede that they do not know for sure that JR and Spektrum are NOT the same company.
The point is, there are many reasons why JR would want to conceal it's relationship (whatever that may be) with Spektrum, and K3 has said it better than I've been able to.
However, if JR were to put their name on a SS, 7 channel radio, it would be NO different from the "Spektrum" offering available now. Therefore, I rest assured that I'm using JR's equipment.