tIANci

Kmot - EP guys hate to wipe oil residue ... that is a fact and you are most correct, the main reason is because we are learning to be LAZY!!! Hehehee ...

Bigfeet - you are correct to say that charging takes time and to have 6 flight packs is nuts unless you are only flying 400 sized EPs or you have oil fields.

Now for all of you who say EP is too quiet ... just attach a piece of plastic to the prop and you will get some GROWL! EP motors for most planes usually run at about 6,000-8,000 RPM so with the plastic bit you get about 12,000-16,000 RPMs ... hehehehee ...

Just some insight about the cost of motors and esc ... at present if you buy from factory direct you can get an outrunner for USD65.00 (will turn a 22x10 prop) and a 90A High Voltage esc for like USD90 only. With that you can fly a 1/4 scale 3D plane with tons of authority. I do not mean buying in bulk as in 50 pieces of more. Still batteries will cost a lot.

B.L.E.

I never call glow planes slimers mostly because it's a word I hated from the days when I only flew glow planes. I still don't dislike glow engines either and may yet build another one.
The stigma of sissyness is mostly a mind control tool used to get people to buy enourmous SUVs when a Honda Civic would have served them better in every way. Before jumping to conclusions of one's sissyness based on what kind of toy airplane he plays with you might want to get to know him. People who put out fires, arrest criminals, or who flew real Mustangs through real flak when they were 18 years old generally don't feel a need to have to prove their manhood anymore. When quitting time comes around at work, the people who do the biggest, loudest, most obnoxious spectacle of a burnout as they leave the parking lot, are generally the entry level employees.

Phlip

Stevel182 said it for me on page one of this thread. I've got nothing against EP, it just doesn't hold any attraction for me.

One other thing I'd like to see .... and it would take a bit of math ... is, in the elaborate cost comparisons some of you do to show how much more EP costs, try to take in to account the price of the electricity you use to charge your batteries. The energy you use to fly has to come from someplace. Somebody is paying the electric bill. It's probably not much, I think I pay about $0.17 per kWh, but how many kW does a lipo battery charger draw? And how long do you leave it plugged in?

Just curious ...

Phil

(edit for spelling)

tIANci

Phil - EP at say 400 siezed motor level is not too expensive, glow will cost less because there is an abundace of supply. Once you start to move towards 40 sized glow planes the cost starts to bite. That is the reality. Don't bother to ask about cost per flight as it costs more than glow for sure. Its the same about gassers. When I was flying my YS110, I loved the power it had then I got myself a Moki 210 and YS160, that was when the gas boys told me how much cheaper gasser cost. A pal did some calculations on an Excel spread sheet, we can see how much cheaper gassers are compared with a YS160. Still many love the big glow engines ... in the same way many are going EP.

Its a hobby ... whatever makes you happy is fine. Its about the beauty of flight and modelling ... not how the plane is powered.

B.L.E.

With a .60 size electric, using 4.5 amp hour six cell lipos, a 10 minute flight uses about 2.8 amp hours of charge from the battery. Multiply that times 22.2 volts and that comes out to about 62 watt hours or .062 kilowatt hours. at 17 cents per kilowatt hour, that comes out to 1.054 cents. If the charging equipment is only 50% efficient, that's still only 2 cents per flight.

My TP lipo charger draws about 10 amps from a 12 volt battery when it is delivering 4.5 amps to a 24 volt lipo so power out is almost equal to power in, a fact verified by the charger staying fairly cool. Driving home with the headlights on instead of off probably makes a bigger difference in your cars gas mileage.

The point is, power cost is trivial when flying electric whether you get the energy from the utility company or your car's alternator. When flying large electrics, I recommend a wall charger if your flying field has outlets so you don't find yourself with a dead car battery at the end of the day.

Phlip

Thanks for that thoughtful reply. I figured it was negligible, but it's good to see the math.

I still like IC engines, I'm not likely to become an EP guy anyway, but ...

Alex7403

Thanks guys and gals for replays and enlightenment,
It seems to me that EP is less of an airplane.
Cost and luck of smell push it back to nitro.
I’m defiantly continue to fly nitro, im just bombarded with ads about EP, wondered if im missing anything, seems not.

Alex

RhyanO

Until battery prices come down for the 40 - 60 size aircraft the majority of people will stick with
nitro engines for their airplanes.
When the price of these battery packs comes down to ~$40-50/pack (they will), then I can
see more people switching over to 40 - 60 size electrics.

Kmot

My Feedback: (24)

Even if batteries are free, I will still fly glow engine airplanes. It has nothing to do with the cost, and everything to do with the source of power. Some guys just like glow engines, and wouldn't fly electric if you gave it to them.

2HI2C

Go Glo or Go Away. The sound, The smell, The noise, The neighbors compaints. (Grunts like Tim the tool man).

Abaco24

Flying Glow/Gas, I don't have to worry about my house burning down (April 2007 Model Aviation Editorial), my truck burning to a crisp (happened locally), or my shed going up in smoke from an UNCHARGED LIPO from flying electric.

Too many tree huggers are trying to convince people of the benefits etc, which from this thread seem to be losing the battle. Sure bigger planes can be converted but where's the SOUND. You're flying a Warbird silent? or some other Sport flyer that sounds like a baby fart going by on a low pass. Our WWII pilots derserve some respect to keep things scale, and for any other aircraft for that matter. Foam, thin pieces of insulation don't give me a thrill.

I love the smell of Nitro in the morning. It smells like .......Victory.............vs a fan in a quick stop on the counter.

Stevel182

Extraordinarily cool aircraft, sir. .020, 3 channel. Too Cool. I bet it hauls youknowwhat.
Park Flyer? This ain't no steekin' Park Flyer....

I think I want one.

It's one of those GWS Pico sticks with the fuse, Right?

I thought they only came in electric. Did you do a conversion? Now there's a switch, convert FROM electric TO Glow.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

It's all about the GLOW

Steve

k3 valley flyer

My Feedback: (18)

BLE that is absurd! Batteries and the ESC are to an electric motor as glow fuel is to a glow engine. An electric motor is wothless without the battery and esc just as a glow engine is without glow fuel. Compare the cost of batteries to glow fuel not the electricity to charge them! Batteries have a limited life span and # of charges before they need repalced, electric flights are still of much shorter duration in most setups verus glow. Anybody can justify anything they want to if they refuse to use common sense.

opjose

Actually I spreadsheeted out the cost/performance&reusability ratios a month ago to determine at which point the overall costs would be the same between glow and electric planes.

At the time I was trying to determine if I should attempt to electrify a few planes.

For planes of .40 size equivalence there would be no cost advantage to glow engined planes - IF - LiPo batteries cost approximately 1/3 of what they cost now at their CHEAPEST... ugh.

sigrun

Bang for the buck in anything other than a minuscule model. EP simply can't compete with IC on either of those. The rest is about personal preference.
As you suggest, neat concept - which falls over in actual practice.
Sure, but be prepared to sell your share portfolio to buy it and the batteries to power it.
Seems so. EP is being heavily pushed because (profit) margins are huge in EP, and it's easily marketed to Gen stupid as tech bling, something new (subliminal suggestion ergo superior) and exciting to the target demographic easily parted with their $$$$. It's not for nothing Pootaba (ch)use acronyms like FASST or AVCS.

I fly both (EP & IC), and undeniably both have a place in RC. But when viewed dispassionately, EP still leaves much to be desired, especially in the cost vs benefit arena. Because of the requirement for exceptionally low weight, most of today's EP models are relatively fragile in comparison with their IC counterparts, but worst of all, have low mass and so fly quite differently (toylike).

Phlip

That may be absurd, but it wasn't BLE's fault. He was simply answering my question. And the reason for the question was because I didn't know. If the answer came out "Gee, it costs $2.50 in electricity everytime I recharge my batteries!" the point wouldn't be absurd, would it? As it is it's good to know, if you're considering electric power, that the cost of electricity doesn't figure in to your operating costs in any significant way. Case closed.

Phil

stockdaddy

Electrics are the future.

You can get a 30c 3000mah 4s pack for $100 now and the cost is only going to drop more in the future as more people convert to electric power.

Why electric over glow.
1. More power from brushless/lipo setup than from glow setup. Faster pullout power as well.
2. Rock solid reliability from brushless motor. No sudden deadsticks, engine spudder that could result in a crash like for glow. Brushless engines go for up to 30,000 hours for use, glow engines do wear out over time.
3. CLEAN, QUICK and EASY. Pop a pack in and go. no warmup, tuning required.
4. When you factor in the cost of fuel, engine wear and maintance, the difference in cost of lipos verses glow engines over a 1-2 yr time period is similar.

opjose

You can find this quote in RC mags that are well over 20 years old.


But the economics are still not there that would cause the market ( buyers that is ) to phase out glow engines.

Batteries and the associated electric technology has to get a LOT cheaper before glow diminishes to any degree worth mentioning. As I previously posted, this sweet spot will be about 1/3 of current pricing at it's CHEAPEST.

I've done the calculations and it does NOT even out as you've stated until you hit that 1/3 mark.

Once there is no discernable price difference over the short and long runs, things will change, but this will not happen as long as electrics sellers maintain their relatively high markups.

And then there will always be those who will prefer glow/gas engines.


Electrics are fun and have their place, but they are not prevalent on planes of .40 size and larger around any of our club fields.

As do lipos.


This is merely marketing hype.

We would all be driving electric cars today if this were true.


---

The "It's cleaner" arguement is specious.

It may be cleaner for you as the consumer, but the technology requires fabrication techniques and materials that are heavy polluters. Much like those who promote electric wind turbines, failing to look at what goes into creating them, in terms of energy consumption, resources, and pollution.

---

Alex7403

Hello,
There is a movie called "who killed the electric car", they explaine why we dont drive EV

Alex

Jim Thomerson

I have various boxes of glow and diesel engines and no electric motors. 20th century kind of guy.

Looking around at what is going on the the alternative energy, electric power supply research, etc, I would guess, in 10 years or so, the present Lipo batteries will be in the same category as the 1 1/2 volt telephone batteries we used to use to heat up glowplugs.

opjose

I remember that.

But the conspiracy theory does not apply to RC.

Nor the problem of energy output versus cost.

Those long hydrocarbon chains, are still more volatile than the battery chemistry... or more ergs of output...


Some day this may indeed become a non-issue and electrics will predominate.

But when this happens we will NOT be using LiPo's.... for many reasons.

Hopefully another battery tech will come along that both lowers costs while increasing energy output.


Until then large electrics will continue to have a prohibitive price tag.


Where's my Mr. Fusion!

B.L.E.

Well, I'll keep flying my EP and I don't care if you don't. In fact, I don't care if you don't care that I don't care that you don't care that I don't care that you don't care that I don't care if you don't. I'm not going to argue like a preschooler about it.
I don't even care if you don't care that I don't care that I don't care that you don't care that I don't care that you don't care that I don't care that you don't care that I don't care if you don't.

LT-40

My Feedback: (2)

I like my electric planes and I enjoy flying them durring the week, but when the weekend comes that is when the real planes come out. I love goin down to the field to fly my glow planes and I feel like there is so much more satisfaction. When I fly glow, I feel like a pilot, whereas at the schoolyard with my electrics, I just feel like the kid with the cool toys.

LT-40

somegeek

My Feedback: (2)

Glow planes messy? 'Messy' is relative.

I have a stryker which is nice to get a few packs in on my way to the store... if I am planning to fly for more than a few hours - I'm grabbing my glow planes and heading to the field.

If I had to choose one? Glow would be my choice for most of the reasons stated ^^ up ^^ there ^^.

somegeek

stockdaddy

It's kind of like the old joke about computers. "What do you need a computer for unless you are going to do word-processing or play games on it". Today with the Internet that all has changed and now it's getting to the point where if you don't have a computer you are like a caveman, the equivalent of not having a phone or a TV in your home.

On the topic of electric cars, right now using a ton of lithium notebook batteries people were able to achieve 200 mile range with equivalent of 200 miles per gallon of energy used with acceleration of 0-60 in less than 4 seconds. It's not going to be tree huggers that drive electric car sales in the future, people are going to want the power you gain from it! Major problem is making the large size batteries and getting them charged fast enough which is why electric cars are not mainstream today.

Don't forget that all gassers use ELECTRIC packs to power their servos with an ELECTRIC charger to charge them up. They do wear out and they do cost money. There is also the cost of fuel tanks, tubing & attachments, replacement glow plugs, ELECTRIC Glow plug w charger, ELECTRIC starter & ELECTRIC lead battery with yet another charger.

One problem with electrics is the few 40 scale kits available on the market now. Converting a gas plane to electric there is issues with weight, balance and finding the right setup that will work with the plane. The cost has come way down from where it was and we are seeing electrics take a bigger market share of the 40 scale + market.

Hey for you gassers that want to get into electrics cheap, try this kit:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LW2073&P=1

I would also suggest buying this:
http://www.anytimecostumes.com/costumes/00353490.html
So you can sneak out to the field to fly an electric yet keep your rep with your fellow gassers and be able to still make fun of the electric guys.