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Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Old 04-28-2007, 07:15 AM
  #76  
jmurphy18
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

stockdaddy, have you actually priced what these hybrid batts cost? What is involved in making them? Not cheep and messy
I was an Certified Energy Manager, CEM, for 12 years and still affilated with the field now at a high level.

On to what I think you are implying, I choose glow due to upfront $$. Bottom line right now is I cannot afford the multi packs, chargers, ballancers, etc I was told I would need just starting out.
Do I want one, yes. I will work that direction as the funds on my limited budget become available.
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Old 04-28-2007, 06:55 PM
  #77  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

I LOVE my Super Sporster EP!

What a great little plane... that is once I ripped out the included motor, ESC and battery and replaced it with a brushless BP 5915 5D, 60 Amp ESC and 2x2200mAh 11v Lipo.

The thing is a rocket.

It's too bad that it's not sold without the anemic combo it normally comes with.

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Old 04-28-2007, 07:33 PM
  #78  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Electrics are toys. A P-47 is supposed to make a lot of noise and spit oil and smoke.
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Old 04-28-2007, 07:45 PM
  #79  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

All model airplanes are toys!
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Old 04-28-2007, 08:08 PM
  #80  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Some people use the word toy as if it was a bad thing. Of course they are toys! What else are they?
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Old 04-29-2007, 02:38 AM
  #81  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

ORIGINAL: AVGJohn

Electrics are toys. A P-47 is supposed to make a lot of noise and spit oil and smoke.
ORIGINAL: jmurphy18
I choose glow due to upfront $$. Bottom line right now is I cannot afford the multi packs, chargers, ballancers, etc I was told I would need just starting out.
Do I want one, yes. I will work that direction as the funds on my limited budget become available.
When you start out in glow you need glow plug starter ($20), lead battery & charger ($30), 12v power starter ($20), field box ($30) for total of at least $100 You can buy 1 charger that does everything for under $80. A ballancer is not required for charging.

Yes lipo packs do cost money, so do RX NICD packs, extra servo/linkage required for gas thottle, replacing glow engines when they die and replacing your plane when you wreck due to dead stick. A limited budget and this hobby don't work together very well.

For me the fun of flying is getting a good performance plane. You can get there either way be it gas or electric. The only performance you lose with gas verses electric is pull out power where electrics do have the edge.
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:23 AM
  #82  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,


ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

When you start out in glow you need glow plug starter ($20), lead battery & charger ($30), 12v power starter ($20), field box ($30) for total of at least $100 You can buy 1 charger that does everything for under $80. A ballancer is not required for charging.
Believe it or not, glow engines are easily hand started, yes, even the four strokes. Learn to hand start them and your field box can be an old shoe box or a fuel can with a strap on Six Shooter to pump fuel and a holster to hold your Ni-starter and glow plug wrench.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:37 AM
  #83  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

As I have said in other threads, I appreciate the guys who fly electric. I have a friend who has let me fly an electric that he has in his fleet. However for me, I can watch electrics for about 20 minutes and enjoy them, anything longer than that bores me to death. I personally like glow and gas. To me the sound and smell is part of the hobby. I could never understand why someone would buy electric then buy a module to produce an engiine sound. I can think of possibly two electrics other than a few foamies, in the three clubs that I fly at, everything else is gas or glow. I'm not slaming electrics, I think they have their niche, I just prefer the others.

P.S. I do see them useful in sailplanes.

Just my opinion and just like something else on the human body, everyone has one.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:55 AM
  #84  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

stockdaddy; there are points both ways. I was at the field Sat and found out were to get cheeper batteries and chargers so that will help me on my second/third plane choice. I do want an electric, but I also like the glow.

Been down the path before as I raced cars. I had competition electronics gear in chargers, discharger, matcher. Hudy gear in lath, tire truer, setup jig, and tools. 3 cars, 2 radios, servo's, recievers........ Yea I spent a ton got burned out and quit. Sold everything but a few tools. Now I am more selective on what I buy and how much I spend on "extra's". I do not want to burn out like last time. But I was working at the track last time and a lot of late hours plus my real job and family.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:43 AM
  #85  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Electrics are like kissing your sister--well, maybe cousin.
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:08 AM
  #86  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,


ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

For me the fun of flying is getting a good performance plane. You can get there either way be it gas or electric. The only performance you lose with gas verses electric is pull out power where electrics do have the edge.
I'd really debate that.

Why do you believe that an electric has more "pull out power"?

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Old 04-30-2007, 11:39 AM
  #87  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

ORIGINAL: opjose


ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

For me the fun of flying is getting a good performance plane. You can get there either way be it gas or electric. The only performance you lose with gas verses electric is pull out power where electrics do have the edge.
I'd really debate that.

Why do you believe that an electric has more "pull out power"?

electrics have more torque.
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:47 AM
  #88  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

More torque?

When you are comparing effective HP output of identical quantity?

Don't think so.

The moving mass of the cylinder alone trumps the magnet's holding power.


That's one reason that Glow props do not work very well on electric motors.

The electric engines cannot handle the wider more oblique cross section of the prop, which renders the electric engine less effective and efficient.




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Old 04-30-2007, 12:03 PM
  #89  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Using around a 10oz tank, you get about 12 flights per gallon of $15 fuel or $1.25 a flight.

A Lipo battery will get around 200 charges for a $100 battery which would be 50c a flight.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:27 PM
  #90  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

True, but still painfully boring to fly an electric. I was at an IMAC compettition this last summer, and they had a lunch time demo of a young guy flying a 40% extra eletric. After about 5 minutes into his flight, almost the entire crowd went back to sitting in their chairs and doing whatever it was before he flew. It was so boring, it was almost embarrasing when he landed, because about 5 people out of hundreds clapped.
ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

Using around a 10oz tank, you get about 12 flights per gallon of $15 fuel or $1.25 a flight.

A Lipo battery will get around 200 charges for a $100 battery which would be 50c a flight.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:27 PM
  #91  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

I think you responded to a different post there....

We were discussing torque....

---

However as to your last post.

A typical .46 consumes less than .6oz/min of fuel at high throttle.

I run 10oz tanks for well over 18-20 minutes on my 40S Ultimates with my timer set for 20mins.

I also have an electrified version of exactly the same plane.

To get the same power on that plane requires a 3S2P pack which is considerably MORE than 100.00 for a 3200mAh or 4400mAh battery.

I don't get the same flight times on the electric, typically I'm down to about 12-14 minutes.

Factor in the need for a second battery to get the same efficacy as a glow engine, e.g. you can land, refuel ( or swap a battery ) and take off again, and glow trumps electric in costs by a fairly wide margin even at this "lower" range of glow engine planes.

BTW: to really get the same power on the plane I need to change the electric to a .60 electric equivalent, as the .46's equivalent electric engins count heavily on having a lighter all up weight.

----

When I move down to a smaller plane, such as the Super Sportster, things seem to even out a bit as my flight times improve greatly... versus say a .32 glow engine with a 6-8oz tank, however there is still a heavy hit with the need for multiple battery packs.

The "you can charge it in 15 minutes" arguements are specious as they don't take into account the desired longevity of the battery, charging at the higher rates, which increases the overall costs due to shorter battery lifespans.

----

Sooner or later we'll get there, but it's not the "glow is doomed" scenario that the prognositicators put forward.

This has been said for over 20 years, and it hasn't happened yet.
We still lack the technology ( particularly in the battery energy storage and cycle time ) to make electrics predominate.

And yes I DO - LIKE - electrics... there's something to be said about those "quiet" flights as well.






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Old 04-30-2007, 03:49 PM
  #92  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

ORIGINAL: stockdaddy
Using around a 10oz tank, you get about 12 flights per gallon of $15 fuel or $1.25 a flight.
A Lipo battery will get around 200 charges for a $100 battery which would be 50c a flight.
Here's the flaw in your rationale stockdaddy.

Consumption per gallon - less wastage - is a known that will be achieved.

On the other hand, you MAY - if you're both lucky and careful - achieve 200 cycles per LiPo in given BEST best case, quality, most expensive brand ...assuming cells don't go out of balance, the pack doesn't puff up in 10 or 30 cycles as some do, you don't abuse it, you don't damage it by mischarging (plenty of room for snafu there) and you don't crash it turning it into an instant $100 throwaway.

Now here's the REALLY important bit you forgot to mention. To have a reasonable afternoon's flying with an electric model, you need at least 4 LiPos of any particular category, ie: nSnP, capacity, continuous current delivery rating, that fit into a model, as charging at 1C takes approximately 1¼hours PER BATTERY if you charge to full capacity allowing the charge to tail off at constant voltage. As we all know, even the very best brands (read that as most expensive) recently advertising their product as being able to be recharged at a higher rate (up to 2.5C) give clear warning that you WILL significantly shorten the life of the pack by rapid charging at that rate. That's the cost benefit compromise. Here's another one. LiPo batteries don't last forever, and electricity to recharge them or their ain't free...or clean. LiPos are consumables which wear out and regularly have to be replaced, thus EP requires a huge capital outlay in accumulating sufficient LiPo numbers for them not to be restrictive in terms of avaialbe flying time and fit into the unique space requirements of each individual model.. Then there's the significant depreciation to be written off as you have to factor in their scheduled and unscheduled replacement. And of course, you also conveniently forgot that you you need to haul along your expensive fast charger ...or preferably three, several set/s of charging leads which ain't free either, a grunty, heavy and cumbersomely LARGE SLA battery if you are in any way serious about recharging several large capacity LiPos during the course of a morning or afternoon's flying. And then there's the cost of a balancer or two, the soldering iron and PITA job of soldering together all those Deans connectors and bullets - plenty of room for snafu there as well. Hmmm..how about an expensive 12vDC regulated power supply that I don't have to cobble together from an old PC PSU? And the rather expensive ESC w/BEC or Opto with UBEC required for any model with more than a couple of tiny servos. Don't need any of this disproportionately expensive kit in a glow powereed model. I could go on, but you should be starting to see the real cost comparitive picture by now.....?

It's simply silly to even attempt to 'argue', well at least rationally, FOR electric versus glow on a advantageous cost versus benefit factor, because plain and simply anyone better informed than the local village idiot can see from that it simply ain't so within 10 minutes of stepping into the EP quagmire.

I do fly both by the way, and I do appreciate where EP can be preferred even if it doesn't compare favourably from an economic perspective. But I don't allow zeal to fit 'e-blinkers' to perspective.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:52 PM
  #93  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Sigrun: I'd argue that the cost of the chargers, etc. is incidental, equatable to the stuff we buy for glows.

But I do agree with the need to have multiple packs available to be truely able to compare glow costs to electric costs.

As it is I have to carry a briefcase full of LiPo packs along with me to the field, so that I have enough to fly with w/o adversely affecting their lifespan, while having enough flight time, to make the trip worthwhile.



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Old 04-30-2007, 06:02 PM
  #94  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

ORIGINAL: sigrun
Here's the flaw in your rationale stockdaddy.

Consumption per gallon - less wastage - is a known that will be achieved.

On the other hand, you MAY - if you're both lucky and careful - achieve 200 cycles per LiPo in given BEST best case, quality, most expensive brand ...assuming cells don't go out of balance, the pack doesn't puff up in 10 or 30 cycles as some do, you don't abuse it, you don't damage it by mischarging (plenty of room for snafu there) and you don't crash it turning it into an instant $100 throwaway.

Now here's the REALLY important bit you forgot to mention. To have a reasonable afternoon's flying with an electric model, you need at least 4 LiPos of any particular category, ie: nSnP, capacity, continuous current delivery rating, that fit into a model, as charging at 1C takes approximately 1¼hours PER BATTERY
My numbers were pretty conservative.

In reality, it's been proven you can achieve 500 cycles per battery even charging at 3c on some of the newer packs. That would take your cost for each flight down to 33c a flight. (Yes, I did factor in higher cost for these types of batteries) . Use my previous formula, we only needed to achieve 80 cycles to break even verses the cost of glow fuel. Wait a minute i'm still scared the boogeyman is going to ruin my packs!!! Well some manufactures so have warranties on their packs.

For me having 2 packs per electric plane or a max of 3 packs total is really all I need. At 1C, you are charging 3 packs per hour and I don't fly more than once every 15 mins. With a mix a gas and electric planes, charging times shouldn't be as much of a factor.

If you abuse your packs, yes they can go bad. If you crash your plane, yes it can break along with your lipo. I agree with you there.
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:20 PM
  #95  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,


ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

At 1C, you are charging 3 packs per hour and I don't fly more than once every 15 mins.
I consider it a good day at the field when I fly a solid 110 minutes of time in the air.

I have a 12v CAR battery in one of the Goldber E lugable cases.

I can charge four packs at the same time. The plane takes two per flight, so with three or four packs the electrics can just barely keep up with me.


--

ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

In reality, it's been proven you can achieve 500 cycles per battery even charging at 3c on some of the newer packs.
Proven where?

Everyone advocates against this just to achive 150 cycles.

ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

That would take your cost for each flight down to 33c a flight.
Only for the SMALL electrics.

There-in is the problem. Move up to .40's and larger and things get far more problematic.



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Old 04-30-2007, 07:26 PM
  #96  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

ORIGINAL: opjose
I consider it a good day at the field when I fly a solid 110 minutes of time in the air.

I have a 12v CAR battery in one of the Goldber E lugable cases.

I can charge four packs at the same time. The plane takes two per flight, so with three or four packs the electrics can just barely keep up with me.

Proven where?

Everyone advocates against this just to achive 150 cycles.
Well you can buy a Lithium battery that does 35c discharge, 20c recharge rate and gets 1,000 to 2,000 cycles.
(charge to full capactiy in just 5 min).

http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/power.html

http://www.a123racing.com/html/hypersonic.html

This is the new technology that will likely be the standard in the next couple of years.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:06 PM
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

You can get carried away with gadgets that you "can't live without" 'till your field box needs wheels on it with glow, gas, electric, and even rubber band powered free flight.
I'm getting by just fine with one charger for electrics and I've always flown glow with as few extra gadgets as possible. No electric starter, electric fuel pump, power panel. Just the basics. A manual fueler, Ni-Starter, and a chicken stick plus a few tools to change props and glow plugs.

One thing not yet mentioned is that I can build a second or even a whole fleet of electric planes without haveing to re-buy the batteries or charging equipment as long as I stay with the same battery size.

It was mentioned that electricity to charge batteries isn't free or clean. Not free but so cheap that it amounts to a couple of cents per flight even with .60 size electrics and even if your utility uses coal, it's way cleaner than glow exhaust. Don't forget the enviremental impact of manufacturing nitromethane, methanol, and lube oil. Either way, the biggest enviremental impact is probably driving to the field in your car.
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Old 05-01-2007, 10:30 AM
  #98  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,


ORIGINAL: stockdaddy

Well you can buy a Lithium battery that does 35c discharge, 20c recharge rate and gets 1,000 to 2,000 cycles.
(charge to full capactiy in just 5 min).

http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/power.html

http://www.a123racing.com/html/hypersonic.html

This is the new technology that will likely be the standard in the next couple of years.

Ok this is something relatively "new" in that it's not mainstream yet.

BTW: I've looked at the specs for the A123 batteries and 1,000 cycles is not even close. It's more like 300-400.

I could likewise say that in 10 years we'll all be using oxygen activated energy cells that will replace glow engines too.

But this is pure speculation and not really pertinent.


The argument is that glow is "on the way out". That has been said for 20 years, and yet glow still predominates.

For the moment, it's still NOT "on the way out", and it will continue to be preferred until electric technology surpasses glow in terms of power output for price and weight.

We are not there yet, nor likely to be there for many years.

The "on the way out" statements are wishful thinking usually on the part of those who are rationalizing their own electric setups.

Someday, maybe, but not this year, not in the next 3 years, and IF in 10 years it happens, we'll still have plenty of people flying glow, if only for nostalgia.




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Old 05-01-2007, 12:19 PM
  #99  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

I think you could successfully argue the power to weight aspect in electrics favor.


ORIGINAL: opjose

More torque?

When you are comparing effective HP output of identical quantity?

Don't think so.

The moving mass of the cylinder alone trumps the magnet's holding power.


That's one reason that Glow props do not work very well on electric motors.

The electric engines cannot handle the wider more oblique cross section of the prop, which renders the electric engine less effective and efficient.




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Old 05-01-2007, 12:27 PM
  #100  
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Default RE: Remind me why do we fly glow planes, compare to electric planes,

Yes and I'd agree.

Unfortunately I've found that some manufacturers ( cough * E-Flite * cough ) take the weight savings and add that to their equivalence values when selling the motors and ESCs.

e.g. they'll tell you that the motor is the equivalent of a .46, but they are really taking the lighter weight into account, so what you end up with is more akin to a .40 equivalence catching the newbies.

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