Hydro Junkie

This goes out to the flight instructors on the forum.
When I went to the Northwest Hobby Expo this last weekend, I had a couple of things I was looking for. The first was some good deals, which there were very few of, and the second was local flying clubs with instructors.
There were two flying clubs represented, one in the host city of Monroe(30 minutes away) and the other is 5 minutes from my house.
I explained to both that I was looking for a site that had instructors available and that I have a plane under construction with a modified wing(no dihedral and barn door ailerons instead of 1.75" dihedral and no ailerons).
The replies I got were the following:
Local Club-"You need to put the flat wing aside and build the wing correctly because you can't learn to fly using ailerons, but will learn with the three channel set up."
Monroe Club-"It would have been better with half the dihedral left in, but since you have ailerons, with one of our instructors it won't be a problem. The plane will just be more of a hands on type of plane."

Now my question to the instructors is who do you agree with? The local club instructor is a guy in his mid to late 60's who claims to have taught hundreds to fly since the mid 1960's, while the Monroe club instructors are in the mid 30's to 50's and seem to be more open minded. Considering how many 4 channel trainers are on the market, it seems odd that the local instructor would look at an aileron trainer as a second plane rather than a first.

Now that you all know as much as I do, I NEED OPINIONS

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

I don't know that I disagree with either. Can you learn to fly on a plane with a zero dihedral wing and barn door ailerons? Sure.

Learning to fly on a 3-channel trainer without ailerons would benefit you in the long term. Most student R/C pilots that learn to fly on a 4-channel glow trainer don't use the rudder, except for ground handling. The instructor takes off and puts the plane into a standard oval pattern then the student flies it with the right stick only. When it's time to land, the instructor brings it down. The student only messes with the elevator and aileron controls.

A 3-channel trainer would introduce you to the rudder up front, and this will delevop better flying skills down the road. A 3-channel trainer requires more dihedral to turn, however, and flying a zero dihedral wing with rudder only and no ailerons would not be suitable for a student.

You've already made a decision with regard to your initial trainer. You built it with a flat wing and ailerons, and whomever you choose to instruct you will need to be willing to train you with that setup. You can learn on that setup, and either instructor should be able to teach you with your current build project.

This isn't a question of right or wrong. Your local instructor simply has a stronger notion of how folks should learn to fly.

Hydro Junkie

It's almost funny you bring up the rudder. I threw that at both instructors as well, being told by the local guy that using a rudder isn't a big deal and the other guy asked what I need a rudder for anyway. That was one of the reasons I modified the wing to begin with. I would be forced to use the rudder more so due to adverse yaw and slipping more than a wing with dihedral. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I hate people who say "You can't learn to fly like that"

You can learn to fly with ANY plane, there are just some that are better than others - AND what makes a good trainer for one guy may not be a good trainer for another.

We have one of those butt-heads in my club, and I just had a run-in with his stupidity this morning, so pardon me if I sound a little intolerent of ignorance today!

somegeek

My Feedback: (2)

You're going to want to use your rudder after a while.

At first a person has enough to learn about so the rudder is not focused on and you can get on without it... Once your instructor is confident in your abilities with the throttle/aileron/elevator, the rudder is next. Learning to use this in your turns and in your landing will make you a better pilot. Landing in a cross-wind situation using only your ailerons and elevator to keep the plane on a straight path is more difficult and yields less control than using your rudder as well.

Hard to believe folks would dismiss it's use.

somegeek

aerowoof

join the club that said you could learn to fly with your plane the way it is.Dihedral makes a plane stable but a high wing or shoulder wing type needs less than a low wing.the less dihedral the less effective the rudder is for making turns.Now one of the best four channel trainers in years past was the jensen ugly stick.It had no dihedral and was a good trainer and sport plane,still is.back about 1980 the trainer became a 4 channel ,high wing,flat bottomed airfoil,lots of dihedral and trike gear.there were a bunch like the pt series,the aerostar series top flite had the sierra and others I can not recall.You may take longer to solo with your plan but will have more developed flying skills than others that start at the same time as you.

Hydro Junkie

My plane is an OS 25FP powered Sig Kadet Jr with a 54" span instead of the 48" in the plans. For those that aren't familiar with it, it's similar in size to the Seniorita, but with a shorter wing and slab sides instead of the stick built

aerowoof

sig kadet was one of the three channel trainers at the beginning of the propotial age a classic design.with the flat bottom wing make sure you have differential aieleron throw,ie more up deflection than down on both.this will reduce adverse yaw.

Missileman

My first plane was the Kadet Senior with similar mods to your Jr.
Mine I left in just a small amount of dihedral and I used strip ailerons.
I say fly your airplane as is. Build a second wing with dihedral if you want to switch off to full rudder turns but 4 channel is a fine way to learn.

rlipsett

In my opinion it is easier to learn to fly a four channel aircraft then go to a three channel aircraft then the other way around. the flat wing will not help you out as much as a wing with dihedral but it shouldn't be too hard without it, it just might take a few flights longer. I had a friend of mine who knew how to fly three channel fairly well but when he flew a mid wing aircraft with no dihedral and the wind flipped him to knife edge he reverted to a three channel mentality hit the rudder full over and wondered why the aircraft never righted itself. I can see other instructors points about learning three channel so that you learn to use a rudder but forcing you to only learn on 3 first is not considered an optimal approach. My instructor taught me on a four channel and some of the lessons he taught me was flat turns using rudder and aielerons, cordinated turns and stall turns.

kerrydel

My Feedback: (2)

Got to agree with Minn here. One old guy at our club doesn't see the advantages of using a buddy box. "That's not the way WE learned to fly".

Is there only one instructor at the local club? If not, you might talk to the others and see what they think. In my mind, you need to find someone that you're comfortable with.

You could always learn to fly at the distant club, then join the local club next year.

Edit: Forgot to add, I learned on 4 channels and I think it would be more difficult to learn on 3, especially if the transmitter is set up for mode 1.

Kerry

davo580

I learnt on a 4 channel and was taught rudder turns as well

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

HJ, sounds basically like you've taken a trainer and made a stick type plane out of it, why would you do this if you didnt already have some plan in mind?..lots of guys will build 2 different wings for the same plane based on how they want to fly or learn...you could learn on a jet, but it would probably take a while.....Rog

aerowoof

3 channel setups do not teach you to use the rudder .if you fly mode 2 which most do on a 3 channel set up the rudder is on the right stick where the airlerons are.it does not teach you to use your left hand.flying a cub or a design the needs rudder to turn will.

alan0899

G'day Mate,
As was stated above, it will make little difference which type of wing you have, with ailerons or without.
With ailerons & no dihedral, it will be less stable, will not level itself, must be flown all the time, & your primary roll control, ailerons, will be the RIGHT stick, (assuming mode 2)
Without ailerons & plenty dihedral, it will be nearer to inherently stable, in other words it will level itself, to a certain extent, & your primary roll control, will be on the RIGHT stick, & it will be the rudder. (assuming mode 2).
So, you will not learn to fly using the rudder, on your left stick, if you don't have ailerons, because the rudder will be on the right stick, not the left, as it would be, if the wing had ailerons.
This is how the plane SHOULD be setup.
But it sounds like you have made your choice, good on ya, go for it, & the best of luck to you, I don't think you will have a problem.

Hydro Junkie

Rog, how perseptive of you. The plane is going to ultimately get floats on it, hense the flat wing. A while back, I was chatting with a moderator on another forum that designs planes and asked a few questions about how to improve the Kadet I was starting. He suggested the ailerons(including the dimensions) and 1/4 to 1/2 inch dihedral. When I mentioned floats, he told me to eliminate the dihedral all together as the weight slung under the plane would replace the stability the dihedral would give, so that's how the wing was designed. Rog, in your opinion, would it be better if I built a second wing with the 1/2' dihedral and left the rest the same as the flat wing?

I should probably let you all know about radios. I have a Futaba 9C that is going into it to learn with, then a four channel Futaba Conquest later since the Conquest isn't buddy box compatable. I've seen some posts refering to mode 1 and 2. both systems are set up in mode 2

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

HJ, for training I would build a wing per the plans...to help you become familiar with the plane before you try the floats, and I think I would use that for the floats to begin with too...although I dont have any experience with floats myself, I can see where they would help stability....Rog

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

I am confused if you have the 9C then why go to the conquest doesn't the 9C have multi model memory.
also for the most part a 4ch plane is alot easer to fly than a 3 having to rely on the rudder to correct yaw can be trying at best, without a bunch of dihedral to help keep the plane stable in flight, ailerons are extremely helpfull in just about all aspects of flying,thats why full scale planes have them.
IMNSHO all a 3ch radio is good for is slope soaring and putting around the sky making circles and loops, there is no aerobatic plane without all the necessary control surfaces,rudder,elevator,aileron,and throttle.

Hydro Junkie

bigtim, the Conquest is an older four channel system. I'm looking at costs of receivers for when the plane is equipped with floats just in case the receiver gets soaked beyond repair. The receiver that would work with the 9C is around $100 while the receiver for the Conquest is around $40. This plane will not be equipped with floats without having a full house control system in it. But going back to the original post, I was asking opinions on which would be better, going to one instructor with a full house plane with a modified flat wing or going to another instructor who refuses to teach on anything that isn't 3 channels with lots of dihedral.

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

Bring the house bro !!! better to not let a instructor get you stuck in a rut.
of course that makes sense,using the less expensive unit, my club mates double bag there gear on there float planes just in case it goes in to the drink,I just purchased a pair of floats myself.
I am converting the old retired nextar into a float plane, I will be flattening the wings myself for the FloatstarPOS, a bunch of the guys are really into it it will be my first float adventure

Shortymet55

Go to the one that will fly a trainer with ailerons. Nothing wrong with just rudder, but why not learn to use ailerons and rudder together from the start.

bruce88123

It sounds like you think you MUST use a PCM RX with the 9C and that is not true.
You can use Futaba's standard FM RX which costs $60 plus a crystal. You need a crystal with the others too so no difference there.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXLSX4&P=SM
There are also aftermarket RX's available even cheaper. Don't give up on the 9C.
Of course you have to tell the 9C to operate in FM and not PCM.

The Conquest may be an AM set but I don't recommend those if an FM set is available.

Oh, and fly with ailerons.

Hydro Junkie

Actually Bruce, I could use the 9C with the floats, but would rather not. The Conquest was actually purchased for the Kadet way back when, so rather than have it just sitting around collecting dust, I'll use it here. Besides, I have at least 13 other R/C's to use the 9C with in the works, including 7 scale hydros, a Sport 40 hydro, a 68" Pitts, 32" Hellcat, 70"+ Katana, 70"+ 300S and a 70"+ Edge. Of course, there will be at least one or two more planes before all of those planes, just have to decide which ones

AIRDEL

Hydro,

I am learning as well, I fly a 4 channel trainer, I also have a 3 shannel trainer with the rudder on the right stick.

When I fly my 4 channel my trainer has me make a concious effort to approach and land with the rudder once I am leveled out. As he as explained to me this helps keep the plane flat and creates yaw to slow the plane. You really don't want to adjust by tipping a wing as you are getting close to the ground. It isn't easy to do because I want to use the right stick. He explained that landing in a cross wind this is crucial. Also when you get into rolls, loops, and others the rudder becomes necessary as well. I found that a roll with a trainer with dihedral the rudder is very important or you loose just a ton of altitude. (Thank god we tried it 3 mistakes high)

Just 2 cents from a noob.

Del

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Isn't the 9C capable of transmitting both PCM and PPM? If so, you can use a lower priced receiver for the float plane. Also, you of all people should know how to build a waterproof radio box to protect the electronics!