gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

*heh* Wow, this thread exploded. Go fig.

Steve,

You're absolutely right. It's 100% their choice when they decide they don't need me. A student says "Bah, I'm ready" then hey...go for it, man.

And that, I think, is kinda the point. IF a student's going to decide that, then I sure won't feel "obligated" to him if he crashes his plane. (Remember, we're talking about a case of I don't think he's ready, but he tries it anyway) But hey...I still HOPE he's successful (even if he "proves me wrong" in being so). That being the case, I figure it this way: For the average pilot, as you said, landings are harder. I figure if he knows how to land, and decides to try the takeoff on his own, he's got at least a fighting chance of being successful. On the flip side, if I teach him takeoffs first, well A) He's more likely to say "Bah, I can get in the air, I'm gonna do it!" and B) LESS likely to have success at it.

Either way, to be honest, it all falls in the category I mentioned above...it's an "end-point" for me, not a specific sequence. Those things I listed above are merely my criteria for what I need to see....they don't have to come in that order. As it happens, I usually DO teach landings first, for the reasons above among others, but not always. Heck, not long ago I taught a guy landings before we'd even done simple circuits...it just worked out that way. (Side note...he did fine, was solo'ed in a weekend, and is moving forward in the hobby some 6 months later or so)

Brad,

I think you've got a point there too...one of the things I teach when I teach teachers (if that makes sense) is the idea of "transition lessons". (As far as I know, that's a completely non-scientific buzzword term made up by yours truly) It's really just the idea of being open to the possibility that while a syllabus or courseware or tasklist or whatever may say "Teach A, then B, then C" SOMETIMES the "real world" seems to offer a natural flow from A to C...so, there might be a student that would benefit from seeing the TRAINING flow from A to C. Again, it's pretty vague, but it's worth keeping an eye out for as an instructor, imo.

ErikElvis,

You and me both. I thought landings were a cinch, and takeoffs a real PITA. Oddly, the same held true for me when I started my full scale training. *shrug* We're just weirdos.

HighPlains,

I certainly won't disagree with you...I think some basic acro stuff has a definite value in many cases, for exactly the reasons you mention. Certain maneuvers can teach various students things about the aircraft and flying that NONE of the "basic 4" can do.

I will, however, ask you to go back and look at exactly what I said...that those are the four things I want to see a student do "enough times that I'm not scared to stand next to you WITHOUT a buddy cord." In other words, master them, and I'll let you solo.

HOW we get to that mastery is, imo, simply the "bag of tricks". Many times, some basic aerobatics are part of the teaching tools...PRECISELY as you say, it can increase involvement and excitement, AND teach UAR (Unusual Attitude Recovery), a VALUABLE lesson for landing practices to be sure.

So yeah, I think basic acro is an incredible teaching tool (like all of them, it depends of course on the student, the instructor, and the relationship). But it's not on the list of "things I have to see to let you solo"...merely probably on the "things I'll put you through to get you ready to solo" list.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Personally I believe my best skills were learned at the end of a simulator session, when I decided it was just time to fool around and do crazy maneuvers (I tried very hard to fly a perfect box pattern, figure 8's, etc until I grew tired) and recovering the plane from unexpected attitudes and positions really helped me a lot. For example, one of my first (live) take offs, off the buddy cord, got incredibly squirrely - I think I over corrected just before I left the ground, and wasn't giving it enough power. Anyway, the plane stalled in every direction, twisting and turning. My instructor just said to stick with it, and I did, and the plane never went past the lateral edges of the strip, nor crashed into the ground, and I was quickly in full control of the aircraft. That definitely wasn't learned trying to fly a basic pattern.

Also, while I was still on the cord I asked if I could do some 'crazy #$%^' with the plane. My instructor said sure, but made sure I was plenty high in the sky. Again, I reacted to the plane stalling, rolling, etc. and feel that this is where I gained a better understanding of the sticks.

After recovering from these two incidents, flying a perfect pattern (right side up and inverted) is a piece of cake.

Last thing, which I can't remember if was posted or not, is taxiing. That was the first thing I did - taxi up and down the runway, slowly at first, and increasing throttle. I got to the point where the plane was ready to fly but not airborne, then reduced throttle. Controlling the plane on the ground with enough speed to take off, IMO, is one of the hardest parts of the hobby. This past week there were 3 beginners that all crashed due to lack of control just before the plane left the ground (they managed to get the plane airborne but so badly out of control they couldn't recover). Here, over steering becomes very easy to do, and there is a transition, difficult to predict/understand for a beginner, between the front wheel and the rudder doing the job of keeping the plane straight, which is dependent on a few things, including elevator, wind, etc. What I didn't see any of those 3 pilots last week do is taxi at high speeds up and down the runway. They did some slower taxing around, making turns, etc. but nothing just short of flying speed.

jetmech05

We had a student syllabus at my last club. It was used as a guide for the student and the instructor....however the thing to remember is this is a hobby not a business...our job is to teach but we have to keep it fun.....we shouldn't keep a student from doing a loop if he wants, just because he hasn't landed yet...

Don Pruitt

My Feedback: (1)

Here is a link to the training sylibus at my club. [link]http://www.hilltopflyers.com/documents/clubdocs/FlightTraining.pdf[/link]

MajorTomski

Interesting thread. Steve look for an email on our training syllabus

I agree with the one post, the most important thing is for the instructor to cope with the different capablities of the student.

Our philosophy is to get the student flying. We build on the "got to have it now" thinking of the younger generations. We teach a rote mechancial process on how to get the plane in the air and back down again in one piece. WE DO NOT SPEND ANY time on theory untill after they're solo'd, any time before that it goes in one ear and out the other on most students.

Just a simple ten step process that focuses first on flying left and right hand level circuits.

The training syllabus:

1. Before the first flight (and every flight).
2. The first flight and the racetrack pattern.
3. Driving around.
4. Loops and rolls.
5. The climb and glide.
6. The horizontal figure eight.
7. The take off.
8. The traffic pattern.
9. Landing.
10. The Solo Flight!


First we get positive control of the plane up high. Then take off. Then climb and decents. Then landing. Note that each of these are taught as a single task. On take offs the student flys the takeoff through a turn to down wind, The instructor takes over and land the plane. To turn it right back over to the student for another takeoff. landings are taught from straigh and level, in line with the runway with the instructor flying down to about 20 feet up then letting the student only concentrate on keeping the plane level through flair and touchdown to a full stop.

MTC YMMV teaching since 1996

Bob Mitchell

I just solo'd this weekend, and I've been reading this thread with interest.

Without a doubt my landings are much better than my take-off's at this point. I'm greasing the landings, even with a decent crosswind, but the take offs are a bit squirlly (to be kind, here).

I've got tons of hours on the simulator, and that obviously helped the landings as I picked them up for real with little instruction. Our pilot stations are essentially mid-field on a 700' paved runway and as a result the initial take off roll is toward you and the final stages are away. On the simulator the default position of the plane is on the runway right in front of you so the entire take off run is away. Can you see where this is going?

As a result I've go lots of experience controlling the plane in the air from either direction and it's become pretty much second nature, but not nearly as much on the ground. As the plane gains speed, typically just as it passes me, I'm either over or under correcting with the rudder/nose wheel and wandering too much until the plane rotates and is airborne.

I'm gonna do two things. First set up the sim so the take off matches what I see at the field, and secondly, at the field instead of back taxieing to the downwind end of the field I'll take off from just opposite the pilot stations as there is more than enough runway to do so. That will give me the same perspective as I've had on the sim. I have no problems with control there, even with some gusty cross winds thrown in for good measure. Once I develop more feel for the rudder/nosewheel correction then it will be a moot point.

Bob