Bob Mitchell

One of the things that is a pet peeve of mine on these boards are those messages asking for the URL for a particular web site. I can certainly find that Black Horse is at www.americanpioneerhobbies.com quicker by looking it up than by posting a message here and waiting for someone to look it up for me.

Another is those messages such as one asking for feedback on H9's Pulse 60 (in a new thread) when there are a couple of active threads with postings in the past 24 hours. Or asking a question that was answered 2 posts above theirs in the thread.

If someone can post here they certainly have access to Google. What's so hard about a search there or a search here on the Pulse? I just ordered a Pulse XT 60 along with an OS 75 AX and the existing threads on the board answered many of my questions, as well as clued me in to some of the tips that others have come up with during the assembly. I know that there are a couple of options I have to keep the fuel tank from shifting and causing the hatch to come off in flight. I know what most people are recommending as the best prop for the OS75/XT60 combination, etc.

What is it that keeps people from looking for information like this themselves, instead of asking for someone to hand it to them on the proverbial silver platter?

Now stepping off my soapbox...........

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I ask lots of questions about how to do things related to my plane, mostly on this site. I could do research elsewhere, but every question I have is generally answered within 5 minutes, whereas research takes time, especially when you have to verify the sources - I guess I've done that here by seeing who's got lots of experience and seems to know what they're talking about, and now I have trusted references.

If I had more money and planes didn't put such a huge hole in my pocket I'd probably try to figure things out on my own, but for example I just spent a little under $1000 for RC airplane gear. I was going to get creative and try to do something a little differently, which according to any research I've done should have been OK. However, the experience of this forum advised me against it, and easily could have just saved my $1000 investment. To this college student that's a bunch of cash, and with all your help it will be money well spent.

I had wood shop in high school, for I think 2 years before metal shop. I learned a ton in that class, and most of it can be related to working on my airplanes - how to shape, strengthen, bond wood, etc. In metal shop we tack welded, and threaded and tapped things. Actually my last year in school they made a special class for me, and it was me and two instructors; it was advanced metal shop and I spent the year fixing all the broken shop equipment by manufacturing all the parts myself. No soldering irons though

In this day and age you would think an electronics class would be included in whatever shop programs are left.

Nathan King

No need to defend your actions. You are not one of those people the above poster was referring to.

ChuckW

This really hits home for me. One of the things I do in my job is provide technical support to our service technicians. My goal is to help them solve most issues in-house and avoid contacting the factories except when necessary.

I also have a database of who is trained on what equipment and if they were issued a service manual.

For a long time I would get simple questions that could be answered by a quick glance in the manual. I eventually just started giving them the section and page of the manual where they could find the answer. You'd be surprised how many got angry at this. They usually said that if they felt like looking in the manual they wouldn't have bothered calling. I always explain that I want to help them use their resources to find information and become self-sufficient.

Then there are the ones who claim they don't have a manual or "can't find it". You mean to tell me somebody supports their family and pays their morgage by repairing equipment but they don't have their service manual handy? It's scarry. I have a wall full of manuals all with tons of post-its sticking out and hand written notes. That's not to mention all of the manufacturers bulletins and numerous files full of information I have on my laptop.

Speaking of laptops... I make a point to take any information that I have in digital format in a special file on our company server. It is broken down by manufacturer, model, system and so on. I make it clear to everyone that they have access to this. Do they use it? Of course not. It drives me crazy.

Oh well, I suppose it gives me job security.

Bob Mitchell

I didn't mean that one shouldn't ask questions. That's how you learn. I've asked many here myself.

What I'm saying is that there are some who just want to be fed the answers and don't care about much else. Again, why would someone post a message here to locate a simple URL when they can google it themselves?

I spent probably 2 weeks here just reading stuff before I really began to ask specific questions. It gave me a much stronger base from which to ask questions because I had some knowledge of what I was asking about. As an example, it doesn't make much sense to ask how you make your plane less sesnitive to elevator movement, and when someone replies "adjust the center of gravity to the proper point" to then have to come back and ask "what is center of gravity"

There is a huge amount of information available on these message boards if someone will just take the time to look at it. When someone comes on an internet message board such as this asking "what is the web link for Black Horse Models" it indicates to me that they can't be bothered to look for themselves and just want someone to hand them the information.

I'll have a brand new OS 75 AX to break-in this weekend, and pretty much know what has to be done, just by pulling up available information from the OS site and doing a search on "glow engine break-in" on RCU. I may end up with some questions, but the questions will be more specific and be based on some knowledge by having done some reading. Why should I waste another's time in asking about basic break-in procedures when it's already right in front of me?

Bob Mitchell

That is correct.

BadSplice

My Feedback: (1)

This drives me crazy as well. It never fails to blow me away when someone actually takes the time to make a post asking someone else to find info that would pop right up on google. (or Tower) The best one in recent memory was someone asking what channel 72.590 worked out to. Just for kicks, I typed only 72.590 into google, and without even clciking on a single link, scanning down the page there was the answer! It took me almost 40 seconds, and almost half that was waiting for the page to load...

I really think that the most important thing that should be taught in schools is HOW to learn. Where to go to find what you need. Theres no way we can all learn and remember everything we'll need to know, but if we just know where to look when we need something..... well, you get the point... Unfortunalty I'm probably "preaching to the choir" here eh?

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

A basic course in aerodynamics and airplane design principles would stimulate kids to learn their math. If you can show kids [especially ones with that BS disease known as ADHD] the practical application, then more kids will want to learn what is being taught.

Stickbuilder

If the High Schools are teaching so many college level courses, then why do all the kids have to take remedial courses in their first year of college, rather than college level classes?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

This is not a slam or an attack against what you posted, but rather a question related to an observation.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

There's a lot of focus on groupwork now. When I was in undergrad at the beginning of this decade, it was disgusting how much group work we had to do. That seems to have filtered down into the secondary schools.

The emphasis is on consensus, and it produces very conservative thinking. There's a lack of initiative. I had an intern this summer who really couldn't do anything unless he was told to, and if there wasn't constant communication he'd just stop. He'd wait for additional instructions rather than find himself an answer or a task. I think corporate America is to blame, along with the amount of structure present in kids' lives these days. Independent thinking and initiative seem to be traits that need to be nurtured and encouraged.

I'm probably on the opposite end of the spectrum from that. I'd much rather ask forgiveness than permission. It's not a better set of traits, just different. It does sometimes make it difficult for me to work with younger folks.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

At no other time in our Nation's history has there been such a high failure rate to graduate High School. In this middle to upper class area the success rate for boys has been hovering at about 50% since the year 2000.
Do me a favor, go visit the RC CAR forums, just pick one...it doesn't matter which one. Spend some time there, then report back here and try to tell us with a straight face that the education system isn't just a little bit ****ed up.

Bob Mitchell

Yep, you're preaching to the choir for sure. You have to have a foundation in reading for comprehension, and a command of the language so that you can communicate effectively. Beyond those, learning how to learn is the single most important factor.

Bob Mitchell

>> If the High Schools are teaching so many college level courses, then why do all the kids have to take remedial courses in their first year of college, rather than college level classes? <<

I think that is a gross generalization. Too many kids require some remedial courses but many start college with credits already in the bank.

IMO much of the former is due to many state colleges/universities being required to accept just about anyone from an in-state high school. I believe that there should still be minimum entrance requirements even for state supported institutions. Those that don't qualify can take remedial classes in a state supported community college or the equivalent.

ChuckW

My old employer does automotive training seminars but from a very unusual perspective. He doesn't talk about any particular car or system or anything like that. There are no specifications, no facts, no figures. What he does is enlighten people on how much they actual know, how to unlock it and how to get useful information from the multitude of information resources that they have available. In fact one of his classes is literally called "Learning to Learn". He's always met with skepticism but that usually changes pretty quick. I think he is on to something. Knowing how to learn and exploit what is learned could be what separates the high achievers from those who just get by.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Unfortunately, the average IQ is only 100.

Stickbuilder

Bob,
Way back when.....We had to take the ACT and get a passing score, and then most of the Universities required you to pass their entrance examination before you would be accepted into their hallowed halls. What happened?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

This was before the SAT was implemented. The highest possible score on the ACT was 36.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

This isn't true at all. When my dad was in school (He's 63 now) he quit in the 8th grade. This was VERY common back then. Only a small percentage of kids his age actually graduated. He ended up with a very successful career making penty of money to put me through college and give my brother and I everything (almost...) we wanted. You can't do that anymore, of course.
I would imagine that they just didn't keep good records back then. Once a kid quit school, he was just a memory, not a statistic.
I would guarantee you that in his day, less than 25% of kids actually went through their senior year and graduated...

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Part of what you're seeing there is the RC car culture. It's... different. The other aspect is that this is an informal setting. Lots of kids, for whatever reason, speak almost another language when writing informally. They consider it an individual expression. They're not incapable of writing as we do, they just don't do it. I think the whole thing is rather silly, but technology is largely to blame.

Given the prevalence of computers, I'd wager that kids today are actually expressing themselves through the written word much more than at any other time in history.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

The other thing about graduation rates is that people have more opportunities now to finish their educations. There are a wide variety of options that fit most working adults lives.

The US census bureau has quite the collection of statistics on education. In some ways, we're formally educated more than we need to be.

Lastly, if a person is truly concerned about these issues, they should act on their concerns. Get involved. It's not hard to do. Schools love volunteers, and a person can volunteer in a variety of capacities. Unsure of who to contact? Drop me a PM. I can help with that. If a person is just doing the "back in the old days..." routine, well, that's another issue.

ChuckW

You know, every bit of this thread is valid and interesting. Graybeard's original intent though was to discuss some of the basic skills necessary in this hobby that aren't widely taught any more. At least that's my understanding. Graybeard can correct me if I am wrong. Things might be just a little off track.

So what about the original point? What skills are beginners lacking? What are some resources to learn those skills. I am by no means trying to act as a moderator but this is a beginners forum and I'd hate to see a potential RC enthusiast get put off and become afraid to ask questions by very valid but unrelated discussions.

Just my two cents worth.

carrellh

Must be something wrong with it because it turned blue..................

This one is a big block, but, it is the right color.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

2Slow, there have always been areas in our country that have lagged behind. The point of the article that I recently read from the Gates Foundation is that the problem has spread to parts of the country in epidemic proportions where it hardly existed before. Believe it or not, the majority class in America was once known as the middle class and if you wanted to belong to this class, having a HS diploma was the rule and not an exception.

MikeL, I can tell the difference between using slang and the inability to organize thoughts. You did make a good point about the old skills being obsolete. We have either robots or foreign labor to handle that stuff now.
Even though the manual skills seem to have been forgotten, we haven't suffered much materially. The skill [and strength] that used to be required to do the simplest things has been reduced thanks to technology.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

ChuckW, in some cases the hobby has been reduced to opening a box and slamming wing half A into wing half B, then go have fun......so it is hard to know where to begin the discussion. If the question is about the skills required to build a model from a pile of wood and a set of plans, now we have something interesting to talk about .....
I think one skill you need no matter what you are building is the ability to visualize what the finished product is supposed to look like down to the smallest detail....before you get started. Rehearse the steps to get there mentally before you act.
The second most important skill is to be able to hide or correct your mistakes where your visualization skills were lacking.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I think this technology/school thing is right on. As ive been through school ive noticed a terrible lack of command for the English language from my cohort, from the day I started college. This was making me think about the change in the way foreign languages are taught. I learned in highschool to conjugate verbs, which no one liked but it worked. Now they have you just say phrases and assume you will catch on. Moving this to college level, most professors are now ignoring grammer and looking just for content. The writing is getting even worse and the content is harder to find. Something needs to be done because the majority of kids today are not coming across as educated individuals, and i think its a disgrace. Unfortunately it is largely political and socioeconomic, so the wrong people are making decisions, and thus art and industrial arts and such are getting cut.

relating to rc, think about all that goes on in our planes, from woodworking to chemical reactions (glue, fuel) to electronics to mechanics and aerodynamics, not to mention creativity and individualism. Maybe we can start an international rc plane club offered after school. This has all been typed on a cell phone and i cant see what im writing so excuse errors. I felt passionate so had to respond.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Yes Carr, that will do quite well!!
I knew better then to even bother posting this the way I did, it has nothing to do with the school system but on another thread it was sort of going this way. OK, Nuff said, to hell with the schools, what is past is past, forget it, let it be.
The only question is what can we do on RCU to help out the younger beginners that were never lucky enough to learn or be taught the basics that we use and take for granted when we sit down to build or ASSEMBLE A model airplane. I can't understand all the stupid questions when I bring out A scratch built plane and modelers can't figure out how I did something as simple as making A round cowl from balsa wood. How I was able to bend and solder A nice landing gear assembly. I also get tired of the question of , Who Built That?? Sorry kid, it's not an ARF!!
So, no more stupid crap about our school system or the plight of our nation due to the export of or manufracturing. I would figure one of the Mods would be just about ready to pull this thread and it wouldn't hurt my feelings even A little if David does.
What A bunch of girls!!!!![>:]
Gene