Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

How is this guys, it really was getting off subject but being RCU it tends to happen A lot!!
OK, today in our schools things have changed A lot with the time. When I went into Junior High School, 7th grade boys had no choice, every boy went into industrial arts classes just so we all knew the basics of what was out there in the working world. College was not needed to make A living but you did have to know A trade.
We had to take, wood shop, metal shop, print shop, electric shop, sometimes others like drafting and anything else the schools could come up with. The gardening class was always every boys favorite!!
Wood shop was basic hand tools and A lot of airplanes were built out of A lot of different woods, just depended on the student. Electric taught us that magic thing that seems to be getting lost today, SOLDERING!! The first project was usually the chrystal radio, my god, those things really did work.
Today all of the worlds manufacturing is being done in China so the schools have gone in other directions here in this country. If you want to learn A trade then you have to search for A good trade school or A city college offering classes you may want or need.
ChuckW mentioned the lack of trained people for his company and the need to train people the basics today, high school no longer provides that service. The cost to the school system is way too much for the return on the investment, young people spend A lot of time playing on A computer instead of doing things like building A Heath Kit {no longer alive} or going to Radio Shack and buying electronic BIY kits. {no longer made} Now they just sell cheap electronic stuff and toys. They no longer even have the build it yourself articles in modeling magazines, too easy to just go buy the product.
So guys, what is the answer, how do we come up with A way to teach the basics like soldering, sanding, cutting, onandonandon. {{ Building A HP Small Block}} Just had to add that, for the youth, that's an engine with more then 4 pistons!!
Just wondering???
Gene

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Some of the educated idiots in our society who have no real talent or aptitude to produce anything tangible seek out degrees in education. Some hide out in the college system long enough so that they can even call themselves "doctors" . Anyway, the combination of all this superior wisdom and training [with regards to what needs to be taught] has netted a couple generations worth of functionally illiterate and task challenged dopes. The all-knowing and wise educators had a grand vision that all kids shall be college bound and prepped for white collar careers in computer science. The shop classes were dismantled and computer labs were reinstalled, this movement began in the 1980s, IIRC.
Anyway, the new system has backfired....many of those computer related jobs have gone to India and beyond. There is a glut of young'uns walking around with worthless, "push-over" degrees in fields like sociology, the humanities, etc., unable to produce anything tangible in the real world.
There will always be some kind of a demand in the service industry where trained and licensed technicians are in high demand, too bad the High Schools aren't equipped any longer to help some of our kids to hit the ground in the real world, 'running".
Union plumbers, pipefitters and electricians have apprenticeship programs that pay a liveable wage as you learn the basics. They are for the most part good programs, but you are identured to the program for X years upon graduation.
They require from 7200-10,000 hours of OJT before the apprentice can take the journeyman's exam. Most can expect to be making $60,000 per year with no overtime after graduation. Many are actually making 6 figures with overtime.
Otherwise, private sector trade schools [in this area] are excellent, but stress book knowledge over "lab time". The private sector grads are years behind their union trained counterparts in practical experience in some cases.

ChuckW

One thing here in CA is funding. Apparently students weren't doing well in fundamental stuff such as math, science, English, etc. so money was shifted to more of those things and vocational education, physical education and other programs suffered. At least that's one reason as I understand it. I'm sure it is more complex.

On a positive note, I have had the pleasure of being a judge at the state finals in small engine troubleshooting for the past 3 years. All of the kids participating are from more rural school districts. Metro areas like Los Angeles, Fresno, Sacramento, the bay area, etc. have not been represented to my knowledge. The kids who do manage to make it the competition are very sharp though and have very dedicated instructors. It does give me a little bit of hope. I just wish there were more of it.

I'm curious about other areas of the country.

This discussion is obviously not directly RC related and this forum probably isn't the best place for it. Still, I think people who are exposed to some things when younger might be more likely to be interested in hobbies like ours.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

This topic is relevant to this forum if we mention that this hobby is a great way to hone your decision making and problem solving skills. What you learn in this hobby can carry over to your life in the real world .

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

At first glance I thought that this wasn't RC related. But on second thought I'm going to leave this thread as Gray Beard makes one good point that does apply directly to our hobby. He points out that soldering isn't taught to kids these days. And this IS a skill that this hobby really do require from time to time. There are other skills that are involved besides soldering, but that is the one that I'm using to support this. So for now I'm going to let this thread stay here.

Ken

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Well Chuck, I was trying to get across to the older guys here that we need A way to teach or show the new younger guys how we do things, you know, sort of like soldering. Not A social thing. The schools are now way beyond ever going back to the way I was taught.
Maybe Ken doing A photo show and tell on soldering wires, I could show wire bending and even soldering.
What I am seeing here on RCU is A lack of know how due to never being taught. That and never bothering to read the directions and trying things before they post up A question or do A search. Sorry, I was just venting A little. [>:]
Anyway, that was my point, teaching the basics in this forum. Just A thought and not one mention of A Union!!

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

One reason the FAA has a "Careers in Aviation Week" is to allow kids, aged about 9 to 18 an opportunity to see engineering in action. Our club is a sponsor and gives a day of our time durng this week to these kids. We show off our aircraft and the skills needed to both build and fly them. We always stress what it takes and that kids should really strive to to the best that they can.

Unfortunately, it's only one week, and only 34 kids this year.

CGr.

bingo field

Basic troubleshooting skills would be a good thing. You have to have a minimal understanding of the equipment you working with, be it computer, or aircraft, or car or motorcycle. I just suck when it comes to covering certain shapes with Monocote. I know some people that can't put batteries in a flashlight.

ChuckW

That sounds like a pretty good idea.

I wasn't disagreeing with your point. You are right on the money. I just wanted to make sure this thread didn't just get shut down. I'd rather see it moved someplace else if anything. I also agree that the lack of some fundamental skills does hinder some people in this hobby. The problem isn't necessarily the lack of skills, after all everyone has a lot that they don't know and that's OK. The real problem is the dwindling resources to learn it I think.

It's funny how learning things the right way makes them easier and a lot less dreadful. Take covering in this hobby for instance. Most people hate it. I was the same way for a long time. Once I started to read a little though and take my time, paying attention to the procedures and details it got much easier. In fact, my skills at it even improved. It still isn't my favorite thing but I no longer despise it.

How many times have you heard someone say that they hate soldering or even that they hate gluing things? I've heard them more than once. Being scared of a little glue is going to seriously hurt if you are into RC planes.

As for the soldering tutorial, how about more than that... What other basic skills are people, especially beginners, struggling with? Maybe with some feedback from those looking to learn, some specific tutorials could be put together by more experienced members to address some of it. It's just a though.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I'm going to add to what Gray Beard has said and expand to say that in the technical subjects that are being taught, kids today aren't even being taught what they need to survive in the working world. I base this on real life experience here, and not just opinion. Here's my story.

My wife and I own and operate a computer shop. We do basic in shop PC repair as well support for business systems on location. This support usually comes out to be Network Administration and troubleshooting. Many smaller businesses can't afford a full time network administrator, so they contract with us to do it on a part time basis. Because of the nature of our business we are always looking for good techs to hire. Here in town we have a Vocational Technical (Vo-Tech) that has an "Award Winning" program in IT skills. I quoted Award Winning for a reason. They have won awards from their program. The program is 18 months long and they promise their students that they will acquire many of the industry standard accreditation's that will gain the student high paying jobs in the IT industry, and they promise the employers (me) that they will provide us with highly skilled employees to hire. I know that this was their goals because when they were developing the curriculum I was on the board that help develop the goals for the program. Two of the biggest certifications they promise are the A+ (supposedly THE standard for basic PC repair) and CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate). Since the program was started I have hired a total of 4 techs for PC repair (A+ certified) and 3 network techs (CCNA certified). Of the 7 I had to let all 7 of them go. Why? Because while they had passed the certifications and had that piece of paper to prove it, they didn't know the bare basics of what they needed to do in order to perform the jobs they were hired to do. I had one of the A+ techs that didn't even know how to install a Network Adapter into a PC, which is a very VERY basic task. One of the techs was actually older than I was (48 years old) and was retraining due to an injury on his last job. Being older he was a very mature guy and had a ton of common sense, so I actually sat down with him to figure out what happened. He as very frank in his analysis of the problem. The school spent so much time "teaching the test" so that they could pass the certification test and get that piece of paper, that they never actually taught the subject. They "knew" the answers, but they didn't understand the basic theory behind those answers. And they didn't know how to put those answers into action in the real world. It was so bad that he was completely disgusted with the school and what they did. They took his money and wasted 18 months of his life and taught him nothing to earn a living off of. I still talk to him all the time. He's a janitor at my son's school and is absolutely thrilled with his life and work now.

So are my expectations too high?? Absolutely not. I don't expect these people to know everything and be complete "computer/network gurus". Heck, I can't afford to hire somebody like that anyway. What I do expect is that I am hiring somebody that is coming out of school and has an understanding of the basics of the field they are coming in to. I expect to have to teach them myself more advanced areas of the trade, and I have no problem with that. But these people don't even have the basic knowledge that they should have, they can't even perform the most basic tasks of this trade. And I DO NOT have the time to teach them something that they should already know how to do. Since I was on the board that help develop these courses I have gone back to the school and tried to correct this problem. But the administration of the school just sticks their head's in the sand. They claim that they are producing "Certified" techs and that they have a program that has won awards, so they are not willing to change their program. So know if somebody walks in my shop looking for a job and I find they have come from this school I tell them "I'm sorry, I just can't hire you until you have some real world experience". Oh by the way, I have 2 guys working for me now that are AMAZING. I can trust them to do just about everything that needs to be done. Where did they get educated?? They are both self taught and have real world experience.

So even if they are "taught" these skills in a schools someplace, this is no guarantee that they are actually learning anything.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. I've said my piece.

Ken

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Minnflyer and I have plans to add tutorials such as this to our Beginner's site ( [link]http://www.gettingairborne.com[/link] ) as we get the time to do them. But also we're a bit stumped as to what to do. So if there are things that people would like to see tutorials done on please get those ideas to Mike and I. We'll be more than thrilled to produce the tutorials that people want to see. I did have a soldering tutorial planned for later on, but I may just push that up and do it sooner than later. I should have a board cleared in the next day or so and maybe I can put something out before Mike and I leave for Dayton, Oh to cover the Airshow over Labor Day weekend.

Ken

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

You can't blame this one on the school's or the teachers. You can blame this one on good old "W" and the state legislatures. The no child left behind and the 4X4 plans (four maths, four sciences, four social studies, and four englishes) has all but eliminated the electives. By the time the kids take the required courses, and if they are in athletics, band, or ag, there is no time left in the day for these other electives. I wish they would come back, but unfortunately they never will.
It also has nothing to do with money, it's a simple matter of logistics. Unless we want kids to go to school for 10 hours a day, there isn't enough time in the day for these classes anymore.

But, I have a novel idea. Wait for this one guys, maybe you've never heard of it. It's called fathers being fathers. That's right, how about we teach our kids some stuff at home, and quit depending upon the school to teach them EVERYTHING. Anything that isn't taught to a kid no a-days, we blame on the school automatically. What ever happened to dad's teaching son's and moms teaching daughters the basics of living.....and values....

The Ghost

How about setup of control surfaces. With computer radios the young ones are just putting the radio in and then adjusting every thing in the transmitter. I started long before computer radios and you had to set every thing up as there was no adj in the transmitter.
The other thing with the kids today, is we are a throw away socitity, when it brakes we throw it away and buy a new one, no one repairs any thing anymore, so all those trades are dissappering.

Cheers

ChuckW

This wouldn't happen to be a state or federally subsidized and/or accredited school is it? I've ran into similar situations out here. We hire from technical schools and end up having to still teach fundamentals that I think they should already have.

My fiance is also a professor at a local state university. There is such a strong emphasis on keeping graduation rates high and student/parent complaints low that the educational standards there have been watered down severely. She is disgusted and looking at transitioning into the private sector. It's really doing the students a dis-service but bureaucrats don't see it like that I suppose. It seems like they just want a nice looking pie chart or something at the end of the day.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

2Slow, the people I refer to used the school system as a stepping stone up to the district, then State level in many cases. Some end up in local or State government. The people who sit on these boards just don't pop up out of the blue, their roots from ground zero are often found in education. The standards have been lowered through the years. I was a C- student in English, but today when I read posts that have been submitted by guys who claim to be educators it sometimes makes me shiver.
Anyway, I place blame on the school system in the collective sense.
Graybeard, you asked who is doing the training nowadays and I let you know. Besides the union trade schools, the military has always been there.. but the applicant needs to test high in the area of interest to be accepted.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

One should separate state policy from local district policy. There are very few things now that the local distrcits have control over. This is the truth from the inside. If you still blame societal problems on the individual school systems, then it is by deliberate ignorance. If you are blaming it on the failure of the state and federal government to allow individual school districts to educate their kids how they best see fit for their community, then you are correct.

As I've stated in another post, it is allowable in the English language to type/write EXACTLY as one would speak in an informal setting such as RCU. One does not have to write formally to prove his/her literacy.

When I began teaching 13 years ago, we had a technology department. That was gone within my first 4 years. I've since taught at 3 different schools, and nothing there either. Besides, the kid wouldn't take it anyway. Unless you are programming a computer to make a robot solder two wires together......then they may be interested.

Believe it or not, the world is changing. If we continue to educate our kids based upon the ideas of by-gone eras, then we will fall behind as a country. Kids have to be "edutained" now a-days.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Good points 2Slow. I wasn't talking about your command of the language, BTW.
We have already fallen behind as a country, heck, even our National spelling bees have been dominated in recent years by East Indian and Vietnamese immigrant children.

If a class in model aviation was offered to me way back when, I would have been all over it. I think it would still be a very popular class today, but I would only offer it to students who maintain passing grades in their other classes. In other words, only offer the class as a reward to deserving students instead of creating a "goof-off zone" for slackers.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I had an aviation class in 1994. Much of that was the initiative of the teacher. School administrators, in my experience, are generally willing to create a program provided that it fits the facilities and talents/interests of the staff.

I tend to think that those who are overly critical of schools haven't been involved in them for some time. Kids have a lot to learn today. What used to be university-level work is now often done in high school. Kids are under immense pressure to perform. If our schools have failed, it's that they've failed avoid burning out the best and brightest of their students, and failed to avoid overly-stressing the average student. Lots of kids have a hard time saying no to their parents and role models. People, perhaps unintentionally, put considerable pressure on kids to achieve.

Want to know why kids don't know how to solder? It's because for most people, it's a completely unnecessary skill. Same with Morse code. You can't find 30 kids in most schools who need a course in hobby skills. Hobbies are just that - hobbies. Parents need to encourage and nurture hobbies in their kids, but with the pressures of today's education environment I'm not sure too many kids have the time or energy to enjoy hobbies. Life should be at a slower pace for a lot of these kids.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

Combat,
You are absolutely right. A model aviation class would go over big with kids now a-days. After all, we have some pretty cool technology at our figertips (pun).
I had the opportunity to take an FAA class this summer that culminated in a trip to the tower (ground control) of DFW airport, and also a tour of the TRACON. That was awesome, and the whole idea was how to incorporate aviation in class.
I usually take my T-Rex when we are talking about Bernoulli in class. The kids make the connection pretty fast when they see the shape of the rotor blades, and then see them spin up. You'd be amazed at the ideas kids have about how things fly....

Rufcut

I'd definitely like to see a soldering tutorial especially as it relates to flight control rigging. I also would really appreciate some more build threads geared toward those of us who have only built one or two models.
When I want to learn about anything, I read, read, and then read some more. It used to be at the library, now it's on the internet. Then, I try to find someone "skilled in the art" that will answer my questions. That's why I have found these forums to be an invaluable resource.
In general, the education system should teach the critical thinking skills necessary for people to educate themselves.

brett65

My Feedback: (18)

I built this when I was 21, does it meet your small block requirements?

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Rufcut hit on something that tends to really upset me to no end. Reading!!! This isn't A post to bash schools, they had to go with the flow of the changes in the world/country so just forget about mentioning the school system of today.
READING!!! It seems to be A lost art and I just don't get it. I don't need someone to take me by the hand and show me how to do something if there are books to read first then look for some hands on help.
I have been installing Pull/Pull systems for years and they have all worked and all of them have looked just like everyone elses. {Kinda Sorta} Either last month or the month before in RC Report magazine Dick Pettit showed the world how to do them correctly. I set up and installed the system in my students new kit built plane and wow oh wow, it came out perfect!!!
If people would just read the instructions on there new radios then play with them and set up A plane A few times they would discover A lot of the cool things todays radios will do and how to do these things.
I have books and magazines all over the place, one of the better books is an out of print book by Gorden Whitehead called Scale Aircraft, 1980, A gift from A friend found on the net. Outstanding book.
I think it was Dick Pettit in RC Report again that showed how he soldered his servo extensions and leads, it was more then A year ago, maybe A lot more but it did help out A lot of people.
READ!!!!

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Yep! I heard someone put it well, on some PBS "Book TV" special. Reading is not a subject, it is a skill.

To teach anything else, the instructor must use the student's reading skills. Basic and important.

Good points.
Dave Olson

Nathan King

The skill that most people these days are missing is a willingness to learn and the ability to research a topic and teach themselves something. A teacher can instruct all day on a subject, but if a student refuses or doesn't know how to advance themselves in that topic on their own, just how valuable was what they were taught? I would argue what they were taught was pretty useless. I would argue that most of what I know was never taught in a classroom. I had the curiosity and ability to teach myself many things. DON'T STOP LEARNING!!!!!

It's amazing just how many people today don't or can't do this for some reason. God, I sound like an old codger. I don't even want to think about what I'll be like when I do get old! [X(]

EDIT: Don't misunderstand me. Formal education is very important, but there's much more to being intelligent than having that piece of paper.

brett65

My Feedback: (18)

I'm 28 and I feel the same way. I am a big history buff, and I can't stand it when people don't really care about what has happened in the past. I won't put a DVD player in my car, too many kids watch cartoons and movies in the car instead of reading a book like I did. I want my son to read, that way he'll have an imagination that I think comes in handy in the adult world.