reincarnate

I like the idea that there is trainer for every new pilot. It kind of works with what I have seen this year. I am one the instructors in the club with Fourstar40 (post originator), and took my turn with the student on the PTS, after 4*40 needed a break. The student is honestly probably on his 20th or so sortie, and still hadn't even taken off (a few aborted attempts...scary!), and just couldn't be convinced that he needed a new plane.

Fast forward (rewind I suppose) to two weeks ago. In the same day, this student had to watch two guys, one a middle aged man who had flown on perhaps 5 visits all summer, and the other, a young 12(ish) junior pilot with roughly the same stick time solo, while he stood and watched. It was like a light turned on, and the next week he had purchased a traditional high wing trainer. Sexy went out the window and functional stepped in. Granted the LHS sold him another RTF instead of finding out what he needed, but he'll solo before snow, I'll wager. Next year that PTS may become a viable option for him.

Fourstar40's original post was out of frustration for delaying a pilots ability all summer. The student in question is devoted to learning to fly, so quitting wasn't going to happen, but it was painful to watch him struggle.

A trainer for every pilot. I like it.

WMB

My Feedback: (1)

I started flying about seven years ago. About ten years ago I started checking out RC airplanes, I NEEDED a P-51. I was talked out of the P-51 and waited a few more years because I didn't want a dorky trainer.
Went with the Sig Senior kit because it is slow and slow to react. I thought this would give me more time to think. I probably would have bought into the PTS hype and bought it had it been available. Sure glad I didn't because I know I would have driven it into the ground in short order. Hind sight is 20/20.

LuftwaffeOberst

Yep... I had two PTS Mustangs and they were very good sport planes. I sold them due to I lost my job and needed $ last year.

I flew mine without the trainer garbage on it. The plane is NOT forgiving and would be a good 2nd or 3rd plane. I do not endorse it for a 1st plane from personal experiance. Also get rid of that tripple screw. ( Prop ) It acts like a airbreak and on a slightly windy day the plane can and will drop in the middle of a landing, not giving you much time to gun the throttle and pull out.


Luftwaffe Oberst
AMA District II
Radio Aero Modelers Club
Pulaski, NY


Supporter of RedNeck R/C-Fulton, NY

opjose

Properly configured the PTS P-51 gives a student plenty of time to react.

Unfortunately the first advice given, is NOT necessarily the best advice...

e.g. "remove those training aids".

If you leave ALL of the training aids in, but opt to change the 10x4.5x3 prop for a standard 10x6x3 prop, the plane does just FINE as a trainer.

The droops let it fly almost as slow as a standard high winger. The breaks keep it from ballooning up in flight. The high forward rake of the gear prevent the plane from flipping over on landing, etc.

I may take a complete novice up on a high winger just to check out how they will fare, but usually the second flight is on the PTS.

No problems thus far, other than those who don't believe it's a trainer, providing too much discouragement to the novice.

bettungesvik

I purchased the P-51 pts after flying a small electric. This was my first nitro powered model and I was nervous. I powered down the field and the aircraft lifted off with ease. It flew smooth and stable and with only a few clicks to the left it was hands free. I have since removed the worthless evolution motor and replaced it with an OS .55 (13X8 prop). Now it flies like a dream with nearlyl unlimitied vertical. I also had it on radar at over 100mph. Since I purchased this aircraft I have logged over 200 flights. In my opinion it is a great trainer and well worth the money.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

This is why I bought my buddy a EagleII trainer and a saito .62 to help him learn, the PTS mustang is total garbage, the student has a a 25% chance of grasping the concept. If not, they keep fighting the stupid plane till they learn, crash or give up. I feel confident walking away from a student that can fly and land on his own. just a couple filghts from soloing, they have a better chance at flying a traditional trainer than a PTS mustang.

calachie

That is your opinion_________________Wrong but your opinion.

AMA 191557

Missileman

He is not the only one to share that opinion.

my05monte

I feel I would NOT have gotten into this hobby without the pts mustang. I put in over 20 flights with 10 of them solo before I totaled it. I still have my second mustang but I have also switched over to the Sig LT-40 as my primary trainer. Calling this plane garbage is wrong in my opinion as I had a blast with it and can't wait to fly Marie again

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

No, but I agree with calachie. I would rather train someone on a PTS than a basic trainer.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Mike, I wish I could have been there the first time you took one of these planes off with all the crapola on it. Not to see you but to hear you swearing as you were fighting the controls to get it high enough and fast enough to trim before it stalled out. If you say you didn't then you would be the first one I have heard of that didn't. After you remove some of the junk it isn't too bad but it's still A hand full. 05 says he got 20 flights with his before he planted it, with A basic trainer I can teach for years and let the students fly it after solo, the air frame wears out most the time before it dies. Not many old PTS planes out there, by old I mean over 6 months, not years. I have taught people to fly with an Up-Roar but they are junk for trainers but I liked it better then the PTS system. I like the idea of the PTS system, just not the planes.

Missileman

GreyBeard makes a point and to expand on it:
I have always said some people can learn to fly with the PTS and some can't but what about those do it yourselfers.
They will not know that the airplane is very difficult to handle with all of the aids on and the plane will be trashed first time out.
At least with a typical high wing trainer they have a better chance.
I was already an fairly good pilot when I maidened my PTS Mustang the fitrst time and I was all over the sky and almost lost it.
I found that it flew terrible with the recommended configuration.
I did get it figured out and got about 20 flights on it. It now resides in a landfill and I am flying a Showtime 90 which was an easier maiden than the PTS.

F4U Corsair

My Feedback: (22)

NO MAS? In another forum, I read that Hangar 9 is discontinuing both PTS models (Rapture, and P-51). If true, when the warehouse drys up they are done. Maybe H9 is doing a re-design, new color schemes, beefing them up a bit (they have a pretty weak fuse in my opinion), we will have to wait and see. Anyone else heard this through the grapeline?

Glad I picked up an ARF, working on it right now, got a new GMS47 for it but might put an old OS61FS in if it will fit. I will be hooking up the flaps and since this will be my 3rd plane in the hanger and first low wing, I'm going to leave off all the PTS stuff. Can't wait to see her fly, I love warbirds!

DG

calachie

WOW_____________My 11 yr old son has been flying his for 2 yrs now. It is the 1 I trained him on & it's still going. He also flys a 4 star & a Piper Cub.



AMA 191557
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calachie

Now you have heard of 2. I agree it is better without all the so called crapola on it but it flew just fine with it. The 1 in the pic. is over 2 yrs old.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Maybe I should rephrase that saying, the PTS series WILL be garbage and soon, most of them end up in the trash bin the first day, some people get it, some don't, kids now a days make it look like they've been flying for years, especially if they have a simulator. But the best analogy I can give on how it flys is gather 6 people, go to your car, let half the air out of the tires, have them load 1000 lbs of sand in the trunk and all jump in and go race a road course together. You'd be better off racing a bus in the road course, it may not be the fastest or the best looking thing, but you'll all get to the end of the race intact. To me a traditonal trainer is the bus, big, solid and slow but it's ment for one purpose, to train pilots. I wouldn't give a ferrari to a new driver, nor would I give a low wing sport plane to a new pilot and expect them to handle it right away. The cost of a upgrading to a sport plane, seeing that all your componets you have in the trainer will transfer is still cheaper, compaired to having to replace the PTS because you had a hard time controlling it and deep 6'd it and still havn't solo'd yet.
Once again, it's my opinnion.

Missileman

Notice I said I was all over the air on the first flight with the recommended configuration.
I bet your son didn't fly it set up that way and I bet you didn't just hand him the transmitter and say here fly it.
My post was primarily aimed at what would happen to someone that tries to do it himself that is sold this airplane as a primary trainer and goes out to a field only to have his $400 investment end up in a garbage bag.
Granted the same thing can happen with any traditional high wing trainer but his chances would have been better.

calachie

Yes I did & I also noticed that you said you were a fairly good pilot @ the time you maidened it. Yes we put 10 or so flights on it with the recommended configuration. No I did not just hand him the transmitter & say here fly it (I trained him on it). He Soloed after 5 or so flights without the Recommended configuration. Yes you are correct that there are VERY, VERY, VERY few that with a Traditional High Wing Trainer could fly without proper training. Your point is ?

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Horizon has quit importing A number of planes and raised the prices {A lot!!} on most of there others. I was told to stock up on items like Ultracote too because all the prices are on the rise. I tried to get the Funtana 100 {$210.00} A couple of weeks ago for my youngest student, yes, his new 4* is history!! The web site showed out of stock, it also showed the 50 size at $250.00?? I had my LHS phone them and they let us know A little bit about what was going on. Anyway, fewer planes and more money. The 100 Funtana is no more!! The prices at Tower have gone up too. I wonder if the dollar being down so low in the world market could have anything to do with it??[&o] Just wondering.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Were all paying now for those who lived on credit and out priced themselves on housing, the economny is in a tailspin but only because most people fell for the adjustable rate home loan. Banks are folding and going under , that's a bad sign, but good thing that people don't care nowadays.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I wish you could have been there too. Here is the actual flight report from my review with comments from me in RED:

The first time we got a break in the weather, I brought the Mustang PTS out to the field. Mark wasn't available, so I did the Maiden Flight without him. The Evolution Engine needs no breaking in, so all there was to do was fuel it up and go.

With the Mustang sitting at the end of the field, I poured the coals to it. The engine perked right up, and she moved down the runway. It has a very stable track with only a little right rudder needed to keep her straight, and with a little back pressure on the sticks, she was airborne. Only a few minor trim adjustments were needed and the plane flew "Hands Off". Control response was very good, but it seemed kind of sluggish. It wasn't long before I realized that it was SUPPOSED to be sluggish - after all, this is a trainer! Note that I did say it felt "Sluggish" but in now way was it ever "Uncontrollable". But I think the next paragraph speaks volumes.

I have to admit that it took some getting used to seeing a P-51, but not "feeling" a P-51. Once I got into the mindset that I was flying a trainer, it seemed a lot more natural. Ok, time to run it through the mill. I think all too often people expect this thing to fly like a high-wing trainer. It does not, nor is it intended to. It is intended to be a solution to the problematic beginner who insists that he does not want to start out with a "Boxy-looking Trainer". And of all of these types of beginners, the P-51 is probably THE most requested plane, so I felt that H-9 picked an excellent choice for the PTS platform)

I put the PTS through a series of stalls. It passed with flying colors. Stalls were gentle, predictable, and there was no sign of one wing dropping. The next batch of maneuvers included Loops, Rolls, Immelmanns and Hammerheads - all were impressive.

Landing the PTS is like spreading soft butter. Due to the wide 3-blade prop, it is very throttle responsive. This is another area that tends to get people in trouble. The PTS prop is a low-pitch, WIDE, 3-bladed prop. In a sense, it is a poor choice for the beginner. Even an expert flier will not be accustomed to how important throttle management becomes. Too many people are used to "Chopping the throttle" and letting the plane come in on its own, but the PTS prop acts like a break when the throttle is chopped. I have no doubt that it would be a good platform for learning to land with - But I will add here that this plane should be flown only with the supervision of a qualified instructor. No comment needed.

Mark finally got his chance the following weekend. To say he had never flown before he certainly picked it up quickly - This says a lot for using a good simulator! In no time at all, he was lining up with the runway and shooting approaches. He didn't land or take off that first day, but I can see that a solo flight isn't too far in the future.

Next, we removed the Air Breaks. It felt as though the air got thinner! I liked the feel of the plane much more this way. No doubt about it, the plane flies better without the airbrakes. But then, to me, a trainer flies better with a semi-symmetrical wing that it would with a flat-bottom wing. Back at the shop, I added a servo for the flaps and brought the Mustang back to the field.

Without Mark there, I took it up, raised the Flaps, and flew it around. Very nice! Now she felt much more maneuverable, yet it was still docile enough for an intermediate flyer. Once I got it back on the ground, I couldn't resist the temptation to remove the final training aid - the Droop Slats.

Now the Mustang was as clean as she's going to get. I got her in the air and I liked it! NOW she's flying the way I like to fly! I ran her through the gauntlet of maneuvers and she performed them all very well. Without all of the "Training Aides" this is a VERY good "Second Plane". In fact I have a brother in Florida who has been flying one for over two years, and it is his "Go To" plane.

So there it is. She can be a slow, stable flying platform, or a good intermediate flyer, and go right up to more advanced flying.

Nice job H-9!

Sorry to all of you non-believers, but I stand by everything I said.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

One final note:

Is this my favorite trainer? No.

Is it a GOOD trainer? By far not the best, but it will do the job. It also has a very good price tag AND includes an excellent simulator, which is a huge plus, not to mention a $200 savings for the student.

BUT it is the best trainer I have seen for those stubborn individuals who insist on starting with "Something cool like a P-51"

ser00

Hi everybody,

I thought that I would chime in for my opinion. I think that the P51 PTS is like the age-old compromise in props: we can either get more speed or more thrust. We really can't have both. To me, the PTS is like an APC 11-6 prop for a .46 engine - just enough speed and thrust but not enough of both. I have two PTS Mustangs (one in a box for when the one I am flying makes her final flight into eternity) with a OS 55AX engine on it. I orignally had a EVO 46NT engine on it without all the training gear on it. The plane seemed slightly anemic in performance. I can not see how this plane can fly with the EVO A100 engine with the wedding knife prop on it. When I moved up to the OS 55AX with a APC 12-6 on it, the difference was like night and day. The plane flew with great authority. I could see that plane flying with the training aids on it with the 55AX. Anyway, I am getting off topic here. Can this plane be used as a trainer for a beginner with a good instructor? Sure, as long as the instructor is good enough to realize whether the plane is too much plane for the new person. I agree that training on high-wings can be a double-edge sword - easy to fly but hard to land (keeps on floating, not landing, terrible in th wind - most planes are taildraggers- most trainers are trikes). It really depends on the instruction given. Are we teaching how to fly an RC plane only, or are we also teaching the principles of real flight. Are we educating new people with basic aerodynamic principles so they know what they are doing and why they are doing it when they pull back on the stick? If Joe Sixpack goes out and buys this plane and heads to the local school yard to fly, then this plane is the worst plane in the world as a trainer. Yet, this plane tries to give us the best of both worlds. It tries, to a fault almost, to give a docile trainer that almost fails to fly with the engine and prop on it (RTF version), yet it becomes a very capable flyer once the new person has enough experience on it (removes trainer add-ons and props it with a two blade 11-6). When you buy a high-wing trainer and you have a 100 flights on it, what do you have? You still have a limited-performance high wing trainer. What do you get with the PTS Mustang after a 100 flights? A fun as hell to fly P51 Mustang. It is not the plane that has failed beginners but Hangar 9's advertisement. They should have done the right thing and marketed this as an advance beginner's trainer to buy only if you are going to get flying lessons/ instructions. This would have benefited everybody - beginners, AMA membership, clubs, ect. I do not think that anybody would have argued with that advertisement and we all wouldn't be here having this conversation.
Happy Flying!

calachie

Well said Minn, Well said.



AMA 191557

jason74

I disagree with you on the P-51 PTS I have just started learning on the P-51 i have about 12 flights on it and my last 7 flights I have flowen it myself with the instuctor just standing next to me without a buddy box! I have found it very easy to fly and Take off and landings are easy to! I took off the speed breaks and put a 2 blade 10x6 prop on it and fly with the flaps up ! Leaving the Droops on for a few months! Mybe your Student just has not got the cordination for flying RC aircraft! I spent about 6 weeks on the sim it came with before i first flew it and id recommend it to anyone! My instructor said its a very stable and easy plane to fly