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The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

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The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

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Old 10-14-2008, 11:35 AM
  #51  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer

Sorry to all of you non-believers, but I stand by everything I said.

Yup...

Though the airbrakes DO work great if you leave the flaps down as originally designed.

When the droops, flaps and brakes are properly combined with a slightly better prop, it is impossible to stall the PTS P-51.

At a fast idle to low throttle setting it will settle in to a landing very slowly, as it was designed to do.

The included Evolution engine provides adecuate power too ( though you need to remove those aweful limiters! )....

The plane is not an "unlimited" sports plane with the included Evolution, but once you remove the training aids, the plane has a VERY agressive rate of climb, and flies like a fast sports plane.

The PTS DOES what it is designed to do... it takes a novice through their first flight through to full sports flying, and in the end you own a plane that you do not tire of.

But the PTS P-51 requires a more flexible mindset to deal with.
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:55 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Well I got my Bronze wings today flying my P-51 PTS after 15 flights! Its a great Trainer all i can say is if poeple are saying its to hard to learn on they you either have a crap instuctor or your a slow learner!
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:33 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: jason74

Well I got my Bronze wings today flying my P-51 PTS after 15 flights! Its a great Trainer all i can say is if poeple are saying its to hard to learn on they you either have a crap instuctor or your a slow learner!
Perhaps your a fast learner?
Congrats on your Bronze.
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Old 10-18-2008, 04:24 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

I guess then a lot of people are fast learners too!

I've trained a bunch of people on this plane now w/o problems.

But then I already had experience with it... maybe that is the key... an experienced instructor....
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Old 10-18-2008, 07:21 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Having Lots of MSFS experience I point blank refused to get a taildragger! so I got my High wing tricicle landing geared Eflite Apprentice instead.
The Full scale pilots 99% of the time use High wing Tri landing when first starting out for a reason.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:01 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Sure you CAN do that, sooner or later you need to learn with tail draggers too.

The PTS circumvents the need to add this into the mix.

Of course that has nothing to do with the original and misleading assertion that the PTS is a "bad" trainer, it's not.

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Old 10-19-2008, 08:38 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: opjose

Sure you CAN do that, sooner or later you need to learn with tail draggers too.

The PTS circumvents the need to add this into the mix.

Of course that has nothing to do with the original and misleading assertion that the PTS is a "bad" trainer, it's not.

I am going to have to take you to task on that to a point.
There just is not enough difference between a tail dragger and trike gear airplane to warrant a warning about needing to learn with a tail dragger.
I know many people, myself included, that learned on a trike gear airplane and moved on to a tail dragger with no problem at all.
To add to that there are traditional high wing trainers that are tail draggers if he really wanted to go that way. My neighbor learned on a tail dragging Senior Telemaster.
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:16 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Its amazing how so many "Old Timers" are so stuck in their ways that they think that posts like this are in some way going to show their actually intelligent people. When in reality its just the opposite. Ive seen nothing but success from the P51 Pts. I learned on it, and yes, that "Sexy Look" is what sold me on it. I didn't have a simulator, and didn't have an instructor. I didn't even have a field to fly off of. So I took off from my gravel driveway. Being new, and instructorless I crashed a few time on takeoff.. ailerons inverted... stupid mistake, but she survived every flight less the prop. Im sure plenty of you die hard tri-gear junkies have seen a prop or two eat the dirt, so thus far were pretty even. I didn't start with the RTF version because I was looking to the future of the hobby and where I wanted to be, so I with a spektrum radio and OS power plant. All from the new guy that didnt have an instructor. Within 10 successful flights I was flying without training gear and very successful I think. The Mustang lands like a dream, be it a little faster than a high wing, but with speed come a bit more stability. Ive now been flying since it was released, and fly it hard enough to have a wing fold doing a half-cuban.

Everyone has a preference, and were all entitled to that. But making ignorant statements like PTS line not being good trainers is nothing but that. And it show us all who shouldn't be an instructor, who we shouldn't look for a t the field for advice.
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:02 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

ORIGINAL: Missileman

I am going to have to take you to task on that to a point.
There just is not enough difference between a tail dragger and trike gear airplane to warrant a warning about needing to learn with a tail dragger.
I respectfully disagree....

There is a vast difference going from a trike immediately into something like a PTS, a Spacewalker, Pulse, etc...

The left yaw at run-up which the trikker will not experience is going to send many a plane to it's doom in the hands of a novice trained soley on a trike...

I've been down this road with students.

Students learn to chop the throttle and let the trainer land itself. With a tail dragger they have to learn how to bring the plane in under power.

They also have to learn to guage the amount of power required, so as to avoid bouncing the plane down the runway or overshooting, something that is not learned with most high wing trainers...

I've had to teach many a student how to learn to fly a tail dragger after they have certified with a high winger...

The skills are usually quickly picked up in 2-3 sessions, but they DO have to learn to fly the plane differently.

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Old 10-19-2008, 02:28 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: opjose

ORIGINAL: Missileman

I am going to have to take you to task on that to a point.
There just is not enough difference between a tail dragger and trike gear airplane to warrant a warning about needing to learn with a tail dragger.
I respectfully disagree....

There is a vast difference going from a trike immediately into something like a PTS, a Spacewalker, Pulse, etc...

The left yaw at run-up which the trikker will not experience is going to send many a plane to it's doom in the hands of a novice trained soley on a trike...

I've been down this road with students.

Students learn to chop the throttle and let the trainer land itself. With a tail dragger they have to learn how to bring the plane in under power.

They also have to learn to guage the amount of power required, so as to avoid bouncing the plane down the runway or overshooting, something that is not learned with most high wing trainers...

I've had to teach many a student how to learn to fly a tail dragger after they have certified with a high winger...

The skills are usually quickly picked up in 2-3 sessions, but they DO have to learn to fly the plane differently.

And I will have to disagree with you here, at least with my 3 dragers (one being the PTS). I don't land under power on ANY of them, in fact, one fly's so fast at idle that I have to shut her down before I land so I don't tun out of runway. I fly from my property and am limited in space. My PTS get a total power cut before I turn to final and she glides in like a dream. This is with or without flaps... flaps are always deployed in the final 1/4 of the turn inbound if I use them. The 3rd plane, a gasser, is bit heavy at 19 pounds and isn't balance as I would like it to be as of yet. She gets a power cut at about 20' from the deck and can be settled in tail wheel first on fresh cut grass. It looks GREAT, and is always a crowd pleaser, but is pretty tough settling her mains in gently and level. Yes, the rudder input on takeoff is a task to get used to, and Im sure that it would be a handful going from trike to tail stear, but hardly something that I would deem as ground to call the PTS system a failure as a trainer.
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:03 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: smooreace

Its amazing how so many "Old Timers" are so stuck in their ways that they think that posts like this are in some way going to show their actually intelligent people. When in reality its just the opposite.
I have been flying for just over 4 years so I am not exactly an "Old Timer" The PTS P-51 was my 3rd plane and I have my opinion of it.
So be it. We have a number of threads were we dissagree and have healthy debate but we never resort to name calling or degrading the members we dissagree with.
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:08 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: opjose

The left yaw at run-up which the trikker will not experience is going to send many a plane to it's doom in the hands of a novice trained soley on a trike...



Students learn to chop the throttle and let the trainer land itself. With a tail dragger they have to learn how to bring the plane in under power.



They also have to learn to guage the amount of power required, so as to avoid bouncing the plane down the runway or overshooting, something that is not learned with most high wing trainers...

I disagree with the first statement because trike or tail all have left yaw (not a factor) but you steer it the same left or right.

Second statement. The only planes I have ever had to bring in under power are Scale warbirds & such. (Planes that have a tendency to tip stall). There are many taildraggers that will float in under no power.

Third statement. You have to guage the amount of power on any plane to avoid bouncing down the runway. something that should be learned with a high wing trainer.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:00 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: calachie

I disagree with the first statement because trike or tail all have left yaw (not a factor) but you steer it the same left or right.
WIth a trike traner, left yaw is all but non-existant.

I've seen many a newbie smash their second plane into a fence thinking that the skills they aquired with the high winger sufficed for the trail draggers.

ORIGINAL: calachie

Second statement. The only planes I have ever had to bring in under power are Scale warbirds & such. (Planes that have a tendency to tip stall). There are many taildraggers that will float in under no power.
Which doesn't go to the original point... your experience with those that "float" not-with-standing...

The PTS needs to come in under power, despite assertions to the contrary...

You can "turn in to final" with a lot of airspeed, but this is not the same thing...

A Trike can be brought in by doing nothing more than holding the nose up, even without a flare, the plane will and itself.

That is what the newbie learns to do with a high wing trainer...


A tail dragger like the PTS will suffer an iminent death as it stalls and drops the nose... close to the runway but too high to land.

Newbies who learn this, do not have to "relearn" the whole landing proceedure(s) later.


ORIGINAL: calachie

Third statement. You have to guage the amount of power on any plane to avoid bouncing down the runway. something that should be learned with a high wing trainer.
... but this isn't learned with a high wing trainer...

You can scan the posts here by people transitioning from a trike to a tail dragger that have to contend with coming in under power for the first time.

They get used to chopping the throttle and letting the plane land itself at idle.

I wouldn't have to be helping people to transition as well if this were true...

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Old 10-19-2008, 06:14 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

I will agree that some tail draggers do tend to pull on take off but not all, some trike gear planes do as well.
Again the landing gear configuration has absolutely nothing to do with how much power or lack there of has to be applied for landing.
That is a function of the design of the airplane itself, ie.. wing loading, wing shape, ect...
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:24 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer


ORIGINAL: Missileman

Again the landing gear configuration has absolutely nothing to do with how much power or lack there of has to be applied for landing.
That is a function of the design of the airplane itself, ie.. wing loading, wing shape, ect...
Agreed, but I use "Trike" to differentiate high wing trainers from the PTS...

The majority of the high wing trainers can land themselves, and will maintain an almost perfect glideslope if you do nothing more than chop the throttle and hold the nose up.

Most newbies learn to use this technique ( even these forums are repleat with people who do the same... and then ask about transitioning... ) with the standard trike trainers.

I've never had to teach someone that learned on a PTS P-51, to get away from this...

-

Now that said, you show the "self landing" technique to a neophyte, and it becomes a GREAT confidence builder...

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Old 10-19-2008, 06:34 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Just because it's a Trike doesn't mean you can chop the throttle & glide it in. Tell that to the guy's or gal's who fly P38s, Of which I am one of.
I trained my son on the PTS Mustang when he was 9 yrs old & he is still flying it 2 yrs later & we very seldom bring it in under power unless
we are floating it to the runway. But he was Trained to know how to bring one in under power. They should be trained to fly the plane, Not let the plane fly them.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:02 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

It will be some time in the future, but I will post video of my PTS "Landing itsself". I do hands off landings ALL the time when the wind is dead, or maybe a steady light headwind. this only to keep her from gliding off course into people or a nearby fence. She does GREAT at idle or shut down completely. Ive even shut off the radio just to make this point in person.Half the time I get perfect 3 point landings. The other half are nicely drawn out rolling decells on the mains. Ive only had one instance this didnt work out, and it was in too much headwing and she came up a little short and stalled at about 3 ft up. No damage, just didnt look pretty
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:57 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

So your saying that with flaps deployed, you don't need any power,.... you just shove the nose down to offset the balloning effect and hope it lands before the stall? I've never seen a plane land at idle with full flaps on and land it's self, hands off, or maybe the engine is tuned to idle at 5000 rpm. I would like to see the video though, I did help a student that could solo his PTS mustang but couldn't land very well, all I saw was the plane was a handful for him with the flaps on, flaps off it would land better, but hotter. I guess I'm just and old geezer at the ripe age of 32, but then again, I've been in this hobby for over 16 years. I taught many people to fly, some I've taught to fly on super decathalons and extras, because that's what they wanted and they bought it against my opinnion. Did they learn to fly, yes, do they still fly those planes, yes, how long did it take from start to solo on the sport planes? 2 months until they were confident and proficent enough where they wouldn't loose it. On people I trained on a primary trainer, they tend to solo within 1 month and have enough proficiency to keep it in one piece for the life of the airframe. Of course this is my opinnion, and is not a poke at anyone who has learned to fly on a PTS plane.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:53 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

I dont use flaps often really, and she only balloons if you dont have a mix set to compensate for it. If you dont, it only balloons as they are deployed, from there is glide as normal. I dont understand what this whole land under power thing comes from
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:52 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

I've found the Mustang PTS requires power to make a decent landing with flaps - it just doesn't want to flair when trying to land without power. Deadstick with flaps the plane really has to be kept nose low to retain the airspeed required for flair.

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Old 10-21-2008, 03:50 AM
  #71  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

I did spend about 10 min every night on the sim it came with for about 5 weeks before my first lesson! Thats why i cant beleave poeple say its to hard to learn on! Get some sim time before you start flying her for real and you will get use to the cordination and breaze through your lessons! What you learn on the sim will all come together at the field! the P-51 PTS is the way off the future for trainers!
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:13 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

A friend of mine and myself were both trained from flight 1 on a PTS Mustang. Both of us soloed within a month and a half. In the 2 1/2 months since I soloed, I have moved up to flying a Seagull Yak 54 .60 size, a GP 71" wingspan Tiger Moth, a Carl Goldberg Decathlon (80.75" wingspan), and soon to be a World Models Nemisis 52. All taildraggers, and all of which require skills that, from what I have seen, aren't learned at 4 months of flying. Some of those skills would be stick and rudder, "hotter" landings, and smoother stick movements. Granted, I had some simulator and helicopter hovering time prior to picking up fixed wing, as well as 4 years of surface RC experience. My friend had the car experience, but was far more limited in his flight experience prior to learning on the Mustang. I have had a few hair raising moments, but they have forced me to learn faster. A large part of my success thus far has not only been attributed to the Mustang, but also to having great instructors and club members to help me learn more along the way. Everyone I know of that has begun their training on a PTS Mustang has moved up pretty quick and done very well with their flying.

As far as the flight characteristics of the Mustang, it has been an excellent flying airplane. In it's stock trainer configuration, it is docile and slow, with an excellent glide rate. It's durability is also on par with most "traditional" trainers. It's stall characteristics are gentle, with no winging over as is typical with "scale" Mustangs. Pull the throttle to idle, pull a little up elevator, hold it there, and it will eventually drop the nose, pick up a bit of speed, and recover from the stall. It doesn't start tip stalling until the droops are removed, even then the stall speed is pretty slow. It does make a student learn a few techniques usually reserved for a sport low wing trainer early, but it is well worth the extra effort. If the instructor deems appropriate, most of the aids can be removed prior to solo.

Overall, if the student has the right attitude, sim/other RC flight experience, and an instructor(s) open to the Mustang, it's a good trainer. It may not be the best, but it is still a great trainer for the right student/instructor.

It doesn't matter what you train on as long as you get flying and get the help you need.

As far as it being discontinued, yes and no. The PTS Mustang as we know it is being discontinued, but it is being replaced with a new version. It's still a P-51 of similar shape, but instead of a fuselage that mounts on top of the wing, it's wings now mount into the fuselage similar to a sport mid-wing model. It now includes a Spektrum radio, and the trim scheme has been changed. There may be other changes, but I'm just going off of the obvious changes. It's supposed to be out in December, acording to HH, and it's still supposed to be the same price as the current model.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:32 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

Why doesnt someone do a pole instead of all these one liner technicalities get some data instead of dodo..Rog
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:05 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

It never fails. There is always someone who has to take pot shots at the PTS mustang. If you dont like it, dont fly it or offer to train someone on it. Times change and so does technology. The PTS mustang is a fantastic plane to learn on if you get a compitent trainer. All my trainers were IMAC guys who learned on the mustang. They knew its flight characteristics and taught me what to do with it from the get go. I soloed after 8 flights and after 7 months, im still flying it. Its one of my favorite out of the 6 I have in my hangar. Its always the first plane loaded into the pickup and the first plane in the air.
I was also told by older club members that it wasnt a good trainer until they see me fly it. They always come down and take a look at it after I land and ask questions. I think its stubborness that wont allow them to admit its a great little plane. If you do as many other people have posted, and use the PROGRESSIVE STEPS, you can learn on it. Yes, it may not be for everyone. Just like not everyone can slam dunk a basketball, hit a home run, or drive a stick. People who really struggle should consider spending alot of time on a sim. I spent numerous hours on one and credit it, along with very patient trainers, to my success.
Although we like to try and promote our hobby and try to get new members to join, there is a chance that it may not be the hobby for everyone.
Just my 2 cents.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:32 PM
  #75  
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Default RE: The PTS mustang is NOT a good trainer

And there are others that defend it almost religiously.
I don't personally like it and that is my opinion, not a pot shot and not based on hearsay, I have owned and flown one.
We are all entitled to our opnions weather we like the PTS Mustang or not.
In fact the thread originator dislikes the PTS and it didn't take long before defenders started in.
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