sportrider_fz6

I think I'm giving up on flying cubs. today I went to the field with my great planes cub and my sig something extra. I started off with my extra, which the flight went well. after warming up and some mild aerobatics, I really put it through the paces. after that I desided to take the cub up. my first attempt I aborted after not keeping the plane straight on the runway and it went off the left side of the runway. I taxied it back and tried again this time holding just a touch of elevator until I was about 1/3 throttle. it was going good until it started to wonder off to the right. just as I thought is was going to get ugly, it lifted. I kept it straight and added more power and climbed out. the flight itself was uneventful and the landing was a nice mains down then tail with a little roll out. I fueled it up and after a few atta-boys from the club members I proceeded to tip stall it back into the runway smashing the opposite wing tip of the one I had just repaired. the plane is repairable minor damage to the fuse and the wing. I almost saved it but my reaction time was too slow. it lifted sooner then I was ready and it started to roll to the left I gave it right rudder (probably too much) but didn't increase the throttle enough (I think) as it recovered from the left it leveled out just for a second then the right wing just fell like a rock.
But.. the something extra was flown 4 more times and came home the same way it went out

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Increasing throttle immediately after liftoff can be deadly. You are much better off going to full throttle from the get-go and holding on the runway for a few extra seconds.

phatbob02

My Feedback: (126)

What engine are you using?

I agree with full throttle at take off.

A few degrees of toe in on the wheels will help the cub track straight on roll out.

I use a Saito 56 in a hangar 9 cub and love it.

sportrider_fz6

I have an os .46LA in it

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Then by all means, go full-bore on takeoff!

bassfisher

My Feedback: (21)

Welcome to the dreaded Cub Snap club. Your not the first, nor will you be the last. The slow speeds can be decepitive, especially on take-off. You have to stay on the rudder even after take-off and get the speed up until it has some altitude. Perhaps the most important thing is after getting the tail flying, get a few more feet of ground roll. I would not hammer the throttle on take-off, but don't take a lot of time getting to full throttle either. From your narrative, it sounds like you do not have enough toe-in on you mains, with the plane wanting to go to either the right or left on take-off. Cubs are a tough cookie to crack, but once you get a little more time on it, it will become a favorite plane.

Stick 40

I have the same cub, with the saito .56 in it. I had a lot of problems untill I put "toe in" on the mains, now it great to take off and land.

some said that the mains should have , I guess its called camber? In other words tip the top of the main wheels in toward the fues. I did not do this as I did not need to after putting the toe-in into the mains

cubs are fun to fly, but can be a handfull if not set up right.

sticks

Herb Calvin

Thanks guys, you just scared me out of finishing my first cub. However, it's good information to now.

phatbob02

My Feedback: (126)

My Hangar 9 is an 80" wing. With the Saito 56 and a 12x6 prop it flies very scale. It's slow, just like the real aircraft. I've never had any surprises on take off when it left the ground. I do have to leave on a shallow (realistic) angle or it would stall.
The first time I flew it, I hated it. I hung it up for around 5 years. I got her out a couple years back and had someone else fly it, they had no problems. I was told that rudder was for more than ground handling. Best lesson I ever had.
It's a nice change from punching holes in the sky.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

The reason toe-in helps to prevent ground-looping is simple:

If the plane turns to the left, the left wheel aligns itself with the runway while the right wheel gets more out-of-line (and vice-versa if the plane turns to the right).

This puts less drag on the left wheel and more on the right wheel causing the plane to want to right itself and go straight.

If the wheels are toed outward, even slightly, the opposite is true. Whichever wheel is on the inside of the turn will generate MORE drag and almost guarantee a ground loop every time.

bassfisher

My Feedback: (21)

Herb - don't be afraid of your Cub. Just take your time finishing it. Make sure the mains have toe-in (Minn's drawing is great), the wings don't have any warp, and the engine is dependable. Cubs are a blast to fly, you just have to understand that they have their own little habits. I'll put it this way, if the were bad planes, you would not see them at almost every field! I'm starting to think that Cubs and Stiks are hatched from the same nest, just different fathers! You'll always see them togther

superflea

...And they're not trainers.



Herb,
They are one of the more difficult planes to handle on the ground, but once you learn what your cub likes it becomes second nature.
I emphasize your cub because so far while most every thing said is correct, it is also just generalities.

Generally speaking toe-in is a must
Generally speaking steady easy throttle input
Generally speaking don't hammer the throttle right after takeoff
Generally speaking make sure you have plenty of airspeed before liftoff.

All that's fine but also pay attention to what it likes, easy throttle input? what does that mean??
The plane will tell you. it will depend on how heavy the plane is relative to the power you have, what size prop you're running. An 8 lb .60 sized cub with a .25 on it I bet wont ground loop at all. Wont fly long either, but you get the point a bigger engine will make ground handling a problem try not to overpower it (says the guy with a hot 75 on the front of 60 cub)

awleder

My Feedback: (32)

I may as well get in on this Cub discussion.
I have a Great Planes 80" ARF Cub with a .70 Saito. It has sustained damage several times. The last time it was damaged the wing mounts that attach to the cockpit area was damaged. A friend of mine repaired the damage. This entailed replacing much of the wood that the dowels fit into to mount the two piece wing.
Anyway, I have been trying to fly it. It scoots along the ground but will not lift off. I have had it at full power for at least 75 yards and it will not lift off. It does do some side-to-side wandering which I am able to control by rudder.
Before the airplane was damaged and repairednormal take-offs were possible. It has occured to me that maybe the wing angle of incidence has been changed to a more negative position as a result of this repair.
Since I bought this plane from another party 2 years ago I do not have the original instrucions to know what the proper angle of incidence should be. Does anyone know what this angle should be in degrees? I will also try the toe-in to try to improve the ground handling on take-off.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Sounds like negative incidence to me too.

Try screwing both aileron clevises IN by about 3 turns each. This will lower the ailerons a tad and create more lift

wvaborn

My Feedback: (13)

Quick  question about that "toe-in" you guys are talking about. Does that apply mainly to the Cub , or to all models? I'm still on my Nexstar trainer, and it wanders on me on take-off. There is a guy in our club that swears "toe-out" works best, said he has tried both. In fact, I was having this discussion with him just yesterday, and I told him that I had just Toed -in my mains on my Nexstar, and he said to change them to toe- out.
I'm going flying tomorrow, so it would be nice to get this straight. Should I toe back in before I go out. Need help on this as I am still learning all the pitfalls.
 Ah, the question: To Toe, or not to Toe. Thanks Fellas
Norm

Adui

Is your Nexstar a tricycle gear? If so the guy could be right, but I'm no expert so dont take my word. I do know that on a tail dragger toe-in is DEFINITELY better. There is a thread about it somewhere that explains why, but I'm too lazy to dredge it up.

Taildragger: I have personal experience and can tell you at least for me toe in is best.

bigdanusa

Toe in or toe out, if you aren't ready on the rudder as soon as the cub starts moving from the git-go, you are asking for trouble.

I used an os 46axon my goldberg "clipped wing" cub and if I didn't give it full throttle at take off I had an awful time getting it airborne.

It just doesn't steer as easy as a normal plane would if you ask me either.

And if using that full wing instead of a clipped wing it doesn't help matters also.

Once you get the take-off mastered, it's a fun plane to fly and will land on a dime.

rgm762

My Feedback: (4)

wish i could do the drawings that Minn does but maybe this explanation will help. when the wheels are rolling, they each want to go their own direction, when you toe-in, one wheel tries to go right, the other left, so the forces cancel each other making the plane go straight, when you toe-out, one goes right, the other left, basically causing the wheels to compete against each on which way the plane goes, the wheel getting the best traction wins, one thing to keep in mind is that a little goes a long way, you don't need a lot of toe for it to be effective, consider your full size, rear wheel drive car only has a max of 1/8" of toe-in

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

This does little, if anything, for a plane with a nose wheel.

For a tail dragger, definitely toe-in (See my post #10 for the explaination)

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Minnflyer's post (#10) explains the reasoning behind the toe-in recommendation, it's for ground operation.

The reason wvaborn's friend recommended toe-out is for landing. If you bring the plane down with the the wings not level (say, the left side is down and the left wheel touches first) then toe-out will tend to level the wings. Toe in would tend to aggravate the unlevel situation and maybe catch the wingtip, causing a cartwheel.

I set mine up with no toe-in, no toe-out, and use rudder & ailerons. My Cub (BUSA quarter scale) takes off best with slow application of throttle. Full throttle from dead stop always yanks it left, and makes it look awkward. If I apply throttle slowly and control with rudder, I find I need to reduce the rudder input when the tail comes up. Then it lifts off slowly, almost no input required. I think the shallow lift-off is the key, myself. After it lifts off, I'm pretty patient about waiting for it to gather speed. The 100 Saito is a little marginal in that plane.

My Corsair (Meister) works best for me with the same process, and I tend to do the same with my sport planes. I just like the easily controlled direction with slow application of power, and I like the looks of the shallow-angle takeoff. The lack of need for toe-in or to-out is just a side benefit.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

jdkxtreme

I am on my 4th cub..lol...The first 3 ended with bad tip stall crashes..All were powered with the evoloution 46...This on is a goldberg with a saito 80..More power was my answer. I was taking off too soon with out enough power..The saito 80 takes care of that.. I just need a  better landing gear for it

FILE IFR

Having an over-powered engine will makeflying it very touchy in terms of precision landings.. etc.