Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

This wasn't addressed to me, but I can't resist. Dissymmetry of lift has nothing to do with whether the wind is blowing or not. Like anything else that happens to flying aircraft, it turns on airspeed, not groundspeed. When a helicopter is flying forward, the forward-moving blade has more airspeed than the backward moving blade, and so develops more lift. It happens in calm air, or in a wind. It exists because the helicopter is moving forward relative to the air, not because it is moving relative to the ground.

Nobody has ever claimed that "wind has no effect." It has a lot of effect on the motion of a plane relative to the ground. A steady wind cannot, however, have any effect on the motion of a plane relative to the air. How could it? The wind is the air, in motion. That would be like picking yourself up by your own bootsraps. Consider a plane flying due north at 100 miles an hour in a steady east wind of, say, 30 miles an hour. This wind will carry the plane (sideways) toward the west at a rate of 30 miles an hour. this feels exactly like flying at 100 miles an hour in a dead calm. So a turn, in either direction, will have the same effect on the plane, provided the control inputs are the same. The air molecules on the east side of the airplane aren't moving toward it, and those on the west side moving aren't moving away from it, while the plane is flying north. These two turns will look very different from the ground, however. That's why RC pilots have trouble with something that doesn't exist for full-scale pilots: they tend to think of tthings in relation to the ground. But, except for gravity (which plainly has nothing to do with wind), the ground cannot have any effect on a plane not touching it (or, strictly speaking, and not in ground effect conditions). That's why a constant wind speed, which has meaning only relative to an observer on the ground, cannot affect the way a flying airplane turns.

I cannot resist noting that saying "inertia, time, gravity, acceleration, etc." is making a list, not a reasoned argument.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

For you full scale guys, imagine trying to fly a plane with a "ground speed indicator"

Something tells me that the "downwind turn" would suddenly be a very important concept!

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

No one ever said that it wasn't important only that the flight characteristics are not affected by "wind" ie: a plane doesn't stall easier down wind than up wind. Yes ground speed and track are an important consideration to navigation, like setting up for landing, and wind will determine how soon and quick you need to turn. A quicker turn requires more bank which puts a larger load on the wings which causes more drag and therefore raises stall speed and requires more throttle. That exact same control input will have the exact same effect on a calm day as well. By the way we do have ground speed indicators now (GPS) and our down wind turn proceedure has not been affected in the least.

edh13

My Feedback: (9)

I'm not talking about anything relative to the ground, the 'wind' or the model.
    "Gee Earl I don't know why my plane goes one way faster than 'ta other…"
Thanks, but I think we got that figured out.

We also know 'wind' (as ground creatures perceive it) should not effect the IAS of aircraft as they circle through the sky. For the most part that's true… WE GET IT.

What you need to get is there can be temporary exceptions to this rule. Two examples:

Hot air balloons - The most common passenger observation is "it's dead calm…" "you're riding with the wind…" But, you can feel sharp short gusts if they are present. Why is that? You're supposed to be moving 'as one' with the wind? Well, it takes TIME to ACCELERATE that big-ass balloon with the INERTIA it is carrying against that gust. The gust is there and gone before the balloon can react.

Model airplanes (helicopter blades) - They can change directions into and out-of the relative wind so fast, with such INERTIA that it takes TIME to ACCELERATE (or decelerate) the model to match the IAS it had prior to the direction change. If the RC pilot does nothing during this short period of time the model will either balloon or drop. The modeler can help this with power or pitch adjustments. The helicopter blade just changes its AOA.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Yes. We have all been careful to distinguish steady from gusty winds.

An airplane flying in a steady wind cannot turn "into" the relative wind. The relative wind (relative to the plane, that is) is head on. A plane will not balloon turning one way and drop turning the other way, gusts aside.

hugger-4641

My Feedback: (6)

Very elloquent discertation edh13, exactly what I meant earlier when I mentioned inertia and gravity. But I think I'm done wasting my time with this discussion. I fly full scale and models, and I have no problem understanding what you explained above. To each his own. My hat is tipped to those who seem to have more full scale experience than I, but I don't think I would ever let cfircav8r make a turn downwind with one of my models!

hugger-4641

My Feedback: (6)

sorry, duplicate post, my connection dropped out and re-connected for some reason.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

The reason the plane will balloon or drop the nose is one of two reasons

1: ballon or drop the nose due to too little or too much elevator given for the bank angle

2: nose suddenly drops due to exceeding the critical AOA in high banked turns even at high speed and throttle settings.

Your explanation sounds like what happens with a hovercraft or airboat. Short of a 3D aircraft in the most extreme manuevers planes can't turn like that.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

Well hugger I sincerely hope you get a handle on it before you take up any passengers, especialy if you truely believe your signature. Flying is very unforgiving of poor judgment. Peace Out!

foosball_movie

Try telling this to all the flight instructors out there that nearly spin into the dirt when their students turn from the downwind to base!!!!