Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Trained on the sim extensively. Feel confident.

Started with parkflyers. No issues.

Decided to get a gas trainer, look at clubs and an instructor.

Instructor tells me...no rudder.....you wont even touch the rudder when you fly with me. Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here.

Want to buy a gas trainer and radio?

Park is where it is at for me.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

I think you mean GLO? Not gas. Sounds like a bad instructor, rudder is very important to learn. Glo is a little more clean up, but its also longer flight times and more power, unless your spending the big bucks for large electric motors, ESCs and LiPo batteries. Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Do whats easiest for you.


Vince

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Yes, sounds like a poor instructor. Seek another club and or instructor. If you are doing OK with your park flyer you should do fine with a gas/glow trainer. An airplane is an airplane. They all use the same principle to fly. some just fly "different' than others.

I hope you find someone to help you out.

Ken

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

The normal progression is from smaller park flyers to larger glow then gas planes ( though large electrics are coming into the mix too ).

As your skills increase, though you may still find the foamies and park flyers fun at times, you'll want the better flying characteristics of the larger planes.

For the most part once you get into 1.8 meter wingspans and above, you must go gas.

-

The instructor was correct in trying to get you to forget about the rudder, especially if you are coming off of 3 channel park flyers.

You do not use it for NORMAL flying, and 3 channel park flyers tend to teach you to use the rudder in an inappropriate manner.

After you become proficient with aileron planes, you move back into utilizing the rudder for co-ordinate flight and counteracting winds upon landing.

If more advanced skills are not for you, that's OK too, but don't write off gas/glow planes because you may not be able to handle them ( YET ).

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Sorry about your lousy experience. Most likely the "instructor" can't even fly using the rudder. Too often such blow-hards destroy the desires of new comers to become involved with R/C flying.

My suggestion is to find another instructor who can help you with your quest.

Bliksem

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Find another instructor as his communication "style" doesn't work with you!

You instructor should be one that will help you learn how to most effectively use ALL of the available controls - at the right time. It may well be that to execute the basic maneuvers that are performed as part of your initial flight curriculum do not require the use of the rudder (yaw) control. If so - he should say that. He should be able to tell you the maneuver and the required controls, show you the maneuver using the required control and talk you thru the execution of the maneuver using the required controls.

As far as the comment that most guys out here don't use a rudder - emmm. Watch them fly. Are they flying maneuvers in a way that you want to fly? Are they flying race track patterns all day? Are they boring holes in the sky and cranking the sticks - watching to see where it ends up - many times surprised? Are they following a specific plan, performing a set of well formed patterns? Are they doing really hot 3D maneuvers? Are they gliding around the sky looking for and catching thermals? How do YOU want to fly? Did you tell the instructor where YOU want to get to?

My club has free training on Thursday afternoon/evening. The goal is to enable fliers to "solo" - that's it. Be able to take off, circle the field and land 3 times without crashing or putting someone else in harms way. Once we solo, the rest is up to us. The only time we use the rudder during initial training in preparation for soloing is ground control - turning the plane to get onto the runway and returning the plane to the pits. Is it necessary to successfully perform the maneuvers required to solo? Nope.

Our instructors can, without a doubt, help the student take it to a much higher level - once they have "soloed". If the student asks & can articulate what they want to do.

As you know - all the controls have their purpose and time to use them. Some trainers only have throttle, elevator and rudder - no ailerons - and they are flown very successfully. Can you fly without using a rudder - sure. Funny watching ground maneuvers without the rudder. Can you fly without using the ailerons - sure.

Try again with another instructor - this time sit down and tell him what you want to do and go from there.

Good luck.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

With a new student I don't teach rudder until the student gets to a certain point, Some right away and others quite a while. After a student is good at the figure 8 and circle I start talking about the rudder then have them start playing with it a little to see what it does and how much is needed. Then I will have a student add some rudder in a turn to get a feel for it. I use my own trainer and it has a rudder, I just don't let the new student use it for a while. Ailerons and elevator first. BUt no rudder at all?? I don't have a plane without a rudder. As an instructor I use my own equipment too. The one and only thing one of my students needs is there own glow fuel. I don't think a person wanting to try or just thinking about the hobby should be buying anything. I have seen people spend a bundle on equipment then discover they didn't have the time or care for it then they are stuck with things they can't get there money back from.
Maybe you should look for another instructor.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Out of curiosity, how many times have you been up up this instructor? How many channels are you flying with when you're out with your parkie?

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Newbies are normally taught to keep their hands off the rudder to get them aclimated to using the ailerons for primary control.

That is a proper teaching proceedure that this poster may have not understood.

Indeed most newbies have their hands off the rudder until they have progressed quite a bit.

Someone coming off a 3 channel park flyer may not understand that.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

i fly a 4 channel t-28 in the park.....I purposefully stayed out of 3 channel as learned from the getgo with rudder on the sim

i tighten my turns with judicious rudder...maybe  im doing it wrong

never been up with him was directed to him from the field

in our conversation i mentioned coordinated flight, shallow bank angles and rudder usage

and that is when he advised me about not using or even touching the rudder with him 

i wanted to join at this field due to the bisecting runways

but might look into the other club in tampa

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Hope this is not off topic, but - Are instructors normally paid for their time and instruction? Is that something that is worked out individually with club-associated instructors? If normally paid, how much is standard or accepted? Thanks guys.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Well, you have one thing in your favor........you've been using 4 channels so at least you have a feel for it already.

Come to think of it, you have another thing in your favor.........he isn't the only instructor out there!

You know, I should clarify myself and that's why the edit. I'm making the assumption that you explained to this guy what experience you've had. It wouldn't be fair to him to take his comment about NOT using rudder and chastise him if you didn't tell him you're familiar with it. Of course not having flown with him before, he really doesn't know your abilities and he may just be overly cautious because of that.

Also if he was to start instructing you, or anyone was to start with you, would you be flying something of theirs or a clubs or would it be a plane of yours? If it's something a club or instructor has, then it might be prudent to do it their way to start with until you and him are comfortable with each other and you have a chance to show him what you're capable of.

Just my thoughts.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

ILB

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Sounds to me like YOU should be instructing HIM. LOL :D

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

my plane, radio fuel everything

i am going to go to the field and pay someone to dial in and test fly my plane...first

then I have a few suitable flying spots over private land

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

No, they are not usually paid, But if he does a good job and gets you to the point where you solo, buying him a gallon of fuel, or taking him out to dinner is not unheard of

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

I only know one person that charges for lessons but he doesn't get a lot of students. There are places that have professional instructors and that's all they do. These can be great places to learn if you have the time and money. You can find there advertisements in most magazines. The AMA has a program to get a certification as an instructor but I only know one person that has bothered with it.
For the most part those of us that will teach RC flight feel someone took the time to teach us and it's just a pay back to the hobby. The only thing I request is the student buys his own fuel. I don't want a student to buy anything else. We will use my equipment and plane. I have the buddy box and a trainer that is set up in my TX. After solo I let the student fly my trainer while they are getting there own plane and gear. I usually help out with that too just to get them going. I have a lot of stuff I don't use so I just give it to them if they need it.
For those wanting to learn to build there own kits I also teach building. These days that doesn't happen very often. I think I'm pretty normal as an instructor and don't do anything anyone else doesn't do. I have only lost one trainer with a student flying it after solo. No big deal. I don't buy trainers, someone at the field usually has an old one hanging on a wall they don't want and they just give them to me.
Some clubs have a person that is the club instructor and they have a club trainer on hand. I had only belonged to one club that didn't have a club trainer all set up with a buddy box.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Also sounds like a bit or old style snobbery. If you can fly a 4 channel parkzone plane, you can easily fly a 4 channel nitro trainer. The material the plane is made from is irrelivant, in fact some parkzone planes are much harder to fly than a traditioanl 40 size trainer. If you've been flying rudder then make sure he's aware and tailor you're training accordingly.

IMHO, a small mirority of the more stuck in their ways, instructors view foamies as toys and so not real RC, so you need to start from scratch. If this is your instructor, then i would suggest you find another.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

I have to agree, rudder is something newbies should not bother to learn until they are profient with aileron turns. But for crying out loud, someone has to teach us how to use it before we solo.<div>Get someone who teaches you the right way.</div><div>I bought my. Instructor an engine he wanted as a gift after 6 long months of flying school.</div>

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Ah, don't sell anything I know you will regret it lateri

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Correct. When a students turns are no longer dropping and they can fly in both directions then I start to introduce rudder. I make it one of those things I tell the student to try during straight and level flight just to see what it does then introduce it into the flight. My thinking is as long as I have control of the buddy box there is nothing a student can do to crash a plane. Only thing that makes me crazy is when a student does or tries something before he tells me he is going to do it. My son just loves doing it to me but he has been into RC cars, boats and even helis for years plus he has had a sim forever. Other then landing he has been able to fly from day one. Another one of those one day solo people. Due to weather when he comes to visit I just haven't had a full day with him or he would have soloed right away. Makes me nuts, took me a month to solo flying a couple times a week. Then it took a long while to get to the point I felt like an RC pilot. I had a 12 year old solo in one day. The kid was borne with a joy stick in his hand though and never has felt the knee knocking until it was his own plane he spent his own money on. It was too much plane for him too.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

There's a world of difference between a 12oz park flyer foamie and a 9lb nitro trainer with a 1.8HP engine fitted to the front spining sharp Ginzu blades.

Some Parkzone planes teach you better than others, but saying that "if you can fly ( any ) 4 channel Parkzone plane, you can easiy fly a 4 channel nitro trainer" is poor advice.

The instructor(s) teach you things that NO Parkzone flyer will.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

If flying the bigger glow or gasoline powered planes, rudder is almost a necessity, especially if there is much taxi work involved (which is recommended). You are , IMHO, doing a disservice to the student if you do not clue him in on when and how to use the rudder on any four channel plane. How much usage depends on the type of plane and field conditions.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

If you like the club's facility and the rates are fair, then join and enjoy it. If there's anything I've learned in this hobby it's that no one modeler represents the hobby or any club. You got off on the wrong foot with that one instructor, so choose another one. If you can't choose another one, then work with this guy and do what he tells you until he's convinced you are capable of solo'ing. Then you can fly however you want to.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Am I missing something? Most Trainers are high wing with tricycle gear and a steerable nose wheel. Most steerable nose wheels are tied to the rudder. If the student can't can't touch the rudder who steers the plane while its on the ground ?

rv9-a

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Not at all!

We ARE talking about "FLYING" not moving the plane along on the ground.

Beginners are taught to do the latter after they have some stick time.

We normally take the plane up for a novice and land it until they are ready to do both.

Even then rudder is reserved for ground movement until we start training them on crosswind landings, etc.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Normally the instructor via a buddy box, until they are ready for their first take-offs and landings.

Take-off yaw is something a newbie should never be faced with on their first attempts.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

"Most guys and instructors dont use the rudder out here."

:D

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Yes... But some instructors dont see the parkzones and foamies as real planes to the point the disregard them. Planes a plane. Air over wings, prop pulling it... electric to nitro, they work the same.

Bigger and more power means more danger. But if you fly 4 channel, then moving up a grade will be different, but the same.

I mean it's like saying you have a nitro plane and move up to quarterscale. Different, but the same.

Take the wisdom from club folks and listen to what they say.... but be smart enough to recognize a biased opinion when you see it.

It's hard to say as this is all 2nd hand on the forum, but in the instructors mind, when he hears parkzone, then he just thinks 3 channel and isnt going to change his opinion even if oyu tell him it's four. In his mind, they all fly 3 channel style. Right? Maybe?


Maybe you dont need an instructor but a buddy... Someone who has more experience to take it up and get it all trimmed, and to try to save it via a buddy box if you get into trouble... but isnt trying to have you fly the way they learned. Just a thought.

RC is really hitting a new generation where computers, electronics, and electric engines are changing the game and a lot of the old time balsa kit built avaition guys dont feel it's the same as the old school heat shrunk planes with nitro engines. And with video games and all, the new generation of pilots are able to catch on faster and think about things differently.

Concepts on flying are the same... safety is the same... aircfaft materials are different but if it flys, then it flys...

The main thing is pilot comprehension and untrained skill has changed. You might be facing that type of cultural difference more than anything...

You say tomato and I say tomato... (that doesnt work in print as well as it does in person. :P)

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Yes I agree, but the use of rudder has the same effect, the amount depends on the type, size and weight of aircraft. Its a big trainer that weights 9lbs and with a 1.8HP engine. If the original poster was only flying an UM, then yes its a step up, but if he has been flying a 30+" span 4 channel PK Mustang, Cub or F4 Wildcat, then these are harder to fly than a 6lb 40 size trainer.

Only the instructor and pupil can work out between them if his previous rudder/flying experience is good enough to carry forward.

My point was a small minority of instructor I've seen can't seem to deviate from the 'you must start on a 3 or 4 ch high wing trainer' route.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Why? Shouldn't every instructor teach full control from day 1? IMO not teaching right and left hand control just sets the student up for bad habits. I have seen far too many airplanes lost simply because the pilot did not use rudder. This is something that needs to be taught from day one!. When I instruct I take the student out and have him literally drive the airplane around on the ground. I teach landing approaches course correction using rudder.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Ahhhh.....

Just realised, the throttle stick moves left and right and well!!!:D, thought it was just loose.[8D]

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

There are reasons for that tendancy...

The smaller "park flyer" electrics do not teach you proper and safe techniques, hence the bias.


What aren't ALL "Parkzone's" 3 channel? :D

The only problem with that is you are helping someone to BECOME an instructor who may be inexperienced at it.

Better to go with somebody that has done it before.


Not really....

We haven't seen big changes in our evolution in the past few years that would do that after all.

The proliferation of video games and simulators has greatly reduced the learning curves, particularly when it comes to spatial orientation... but that is not due to people "catching on faster"... rather the difference is because they have a means of practicing and learning this BEFORE they get out to the field.

Thanks to the sim I soloed on my second day out... but it wasn't because I caught on faster.... rather I had a lot of time "playing" with the sim.

It did not prepare me for the experience at the field, nor the dangers associated with even small electrics.


I don't agree. That is like equating an Airhog's toy with your 100cc Composite-Arf.

There is a world of difference in handling both, there is a world of difference in terms of safety, they both fly very differently.

We call the Airhog's "Toys"... why? It's the same reasons that people mis-catagorize some of the Parkflyers.

On the other hand there are those who assume that because they can handle a Parkflyer, they are ready for anything... or worst still because they started off by themselves with a 3 channel parkflyer, then that newbie who comes here asking for advice will have no problems with a Glow engine plane.


Nope, actual learning rates have been quite steady for a long time... Pilots learn at the same average rates, their skills are about the same.

What has improved GREATLY are the tools we use... don't confuse one for the other.

Those tools make it SEEM like people are learning far more quickly... That is not true.

Instead learning is occuring away from the field as well as on the field... that is why there is a perceived difference.


Culture and training speeds are two different things.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

BTW: That's a pretty stock .46 size trainer with a modern glow engine.

Not very big at all IMHO...



Absolutely.... and that's why we advise everyone to seek out an instructor.


Anyone start out on a hot air balloon if they wish...

But the "tried and true" method for greatest success has historically been trainers for very good reasons.

There are now some great ( larger ) foam trainers and electric wood planes available too.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Hey, Yearningtofly..

If you are anywhere near the Kissimmee / St. Cloud / South Orlando area, let me know.. I will hook you up with an excellent Instructor. I fly out of the Kissimmee Club aka Osceola Flyers, and we have a nice field, and many compitent instructors. I don't get to go fly as much as I would like, but I would be happy to meet you at the airfield, show you around, and get you set up with an excellent instructor..

let me know if you are interested..

Craig.

Ohh, and BTW, going to glow and learning how to use a rudder is not a mistake, the guy who gave you that bad advice was the mistake.

L8R.. :)

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

You should try that at our field which tends to have pervailing cross winds.

No, we leave rudder control till later.

Most newbies do not understand the amount of input required to get a plane to respond, nor the delays involved in seeing a response.

They need to develop a "feel" for the whole thing first.

Throwing rudder control into the mix at first makes it more complex for them.

That's one reason why we use "trainers" after all, so that rudder need not enter into the equation until they've had a bit of "hands on" time.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

most 40 size trainers i've seen weight about 6lbs.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

Move up to .46 and .50 with more powerful modern engines.

And of course the .60's are well over 9lbs.

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: YoYo-Pete


yep

im not harshing this instructor or field at all.....just was taken back at the no rudder rule

RE: Gas RC was a mistake !!!!
 

At our club we have BOTH electric and glow trainners ( Electric Trojan & Glow Hobbico trainners ) and first ask the new student which they would prefir to fly. We explain both positive and negitive with both aircraft. Usually end up they try both to see how they feel and the difference in flying each aircraft. Myself as an instructor I do not start out letting the new person touch the left stick. I set the throttle so the plane flies at a nice slow steady speed and teach them to do nice big controlled turns. Trying to teach someone that has NEVER flown a plane before using ALL the controls gives them too much to take in on their first couple of flights. Take it nice and slow, listen and learn from a GOOD INSTRUCTOR. If they don't have you taking off and landing ( provided you fly 2-3 times a week ) within a month or less something is wrong with your instructor.
Just my 2 cents worth
DougB1