RCU Forums

RCU Forums (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/)
-   Beginners (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/beginners-85/)
-   -   How do I slow down? (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/beginners-85/11304310-how-do-i-slow-down.html)

unix4linux 11-20-2012 03:33 PM

How do I slow down?
 
Hi All,

This is my second thread here. I have been doing some sim time using "Real Flight 6.5" to train for my Aprentice and my Nextar (both trainers). I have been getting better at my landing, however, how do I slow down enough to not run off the run way? The best I could do was start decending as far away as possible from the landing strip so that I have about 20mph of airspeed. Sometimes, it's enough to stop right before I run off the runway but more than often, it's not. Any tips? I try to dive the nose a bit to pull back and catch resistance under the fuselage but it sometimes creates a stall where I have to power my plane, which then increase too much speed to not stop in time before I go off the runway.<br type="_moz" />

Villa 11-20-2012 03:44 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Hi unix4linux
The best way to slow down for a landing is to give it a little up elevator while at idle. If the plane then climbs it means you were going too fast; go to idle a little sooner. I use the engine/motor speed and the up elevator as needed during all of the landing.

unix4linux 11-20-2012 03:47 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Villa

Hi unix4linux
The best way to slow down for a landing is to give it a little up elevator while at idle. If the plane then climbs it means you were going too fast; go to idle a little sooner. I use the engine/motor speed and the up elevator as needed during all of the landing.
That's what I have been doing. Seems like I have to get better at what's considered too soon or too late. Usually I go to idle too soon and land the plane a bit short of the runway. I guess I just need to practice some more. I have been spending about 1-2 hours a day since Saturday. Can't wait to get there though so that I can fly :)
<br type="_moz" />

MajorTomski 11-20-2012 03:51 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Welcome, it sounds like your practice is paying off. You just need to add a new technique or two.

First, the LAST thing you do to slow down an airplane is to point the nose down! That has no other result than to make the plane go faster.

Try this: line up on the runway and hold the airplane wings level and body level, to VERY slighly nose down. Then pull the throttle back to idle. The natural tendency of the plane will be to nose down on its own to hold the same airspeed. You are going to slow it down by simply holding it level. NOT nose up. If you do give it too much elevator and it starts to nose up, then stop. Just hold that amount of elevator until the nose drops to level on its own. We're trying to stop you from starting a PIO Pilot induced Oscillation where you just start chasing the nose up and down.

Now if while holding the plane level it apears that the plane is stalling and falls out of the sky, then you need to hold it slightly nose down and hold a little of that airspeed. OR add ONE or TWO clicks of power on the throttle stick.

As you get better at this you will reach the point where the plane runs out of airspeed, you run out of up elevator and the plane touches down gently as slowly as it can all at the same time.

Good luck

unix4linux 11-20-2012 03:56 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorTomski

Welcome, it sounds like your practice is paying off. You just need to add a new technique or two.

First, the LAST thing you do to slow down an airplane is to point the nose down! That has no other result than to make the plane go faster.

Try this: line up on the runway and hold the airplane wings level and body level, to VERY slighly nose down. Then pull the throttle back to idle. The natural tendency of the plane will be to nose down on its own to hold the same airspeed. You are going to slow it down by simply holding it level. NOT nose up. If you do give it too much elevator and it starts to nose up, then stop. Just hold that amount of elevator until the nose drops to level on its own. We're trying to stop you from starting a PIO Pilot induced Oscillation where you just start chasing the nose up and down.

Now if while holding the plane level it apears that the plane is stalling and falls out of the sky, then you need to hold it slightly nose down and hold a little of that airspeed. OR add ONE or TWO clicks of power on the throttle stick.

As you get better at this you will reach the point where the plane runs out of airspeed, you run out of up elevator and the plane touches down gently as slowly as it can all at the same time.

Good luck
I have never tried to hold it level. I was actually always holding the elevator up to keep the nose up all the time. Sounds like I was wrong. I am going to try keeping it level all the time and see how this starts working itself out for me. Thanks for the tips :)
<br type="_moz" />

flyinwalenda 11-20-2012 04:14 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
The trainer planes will want to float and "keep flying" when slowing down as that's how the wings are designed. In windy conditions you will notice it even more. As stated, try lowering the throttle more quickly as you line up and come into your approach. Let the plane settle in as the speed bleeds off and it will start to drop slowly as the wing wants to keep it in the air.  If you throttle back too soon the plane will land short as you experienced and if you do it too late the plane will overshoot the runway as you experienced.
The "trick" is to lower the throttle sooner rather than later and if the plane starts to settle to short of the runway then gently add in a little power to bring you further ahead and lower the throttle again and let it settle in again then as the wheels get close gently pull back on the elevator to bring the nose up slightly and let it down on the mains.
After enough times you will know how each plane reacts in calm and wind and you will know how to handle the throttle for landings.

acerc 11-20-2012 04:19 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
A couple felt washer's on the wheel's do wonders for stopping once on the tarmack. Just saying.

Lnewqban 11-20-2012 08:21 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Altitude is controlled by the throttle.

Speed is controlled by the elevator.

Best !

bikerbc 11-20-2012 10:18 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Lnewqban is correct If you are dropping too quickly you add a few clicks off throttle , if you are going too fast you pull back and flair..Just a wee bit...It is a combination that takes pratice...Just rember pulling the nose up will slow you down but be carefull you do not pull up too much because you can stall..You want to pull up and try not to climb...If you start to slow down too much you must be ready to add throttle..Sometimes we get excited or nervous and over react and pull up too much and cause a stall..Some planes are easier than others..I have a Pulse and it is so easy to land..You just line it up with the run way and chop the throttle..As you drop towards the runway you start pulling back slowly trying to hold the plane about 3 ft off the runway.. If you are dropping too quickly you can add a click of throttle..If not just try to hold it off and it will slow down and settle in so nice....All airplanes drop at a different rate when you cut the power..Trainers like to float as Flyingwalenda said and wind has an effect , as will temp etc. so you may need to adjust your throttle till you get your plane at the rite altitude over the threshold...Some of the faster ones require flaps to increase the drag to help slow them down and shorten the landing distance..Or you can learn how to Crab which is another method of inceasing drag...but for a trainrer the simpelest way is to controle altitude is with throttle and speed with elevator..

BubbasanJohn 11-21-2012 01:34 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
How longs is the runway at your field? Shorter than the real flight sim? I would NOT stress running off the end of the runway if you are landing close to the beginning of the runway in the first place. I fly heavy metal and alot of the techniques describe above are, in my opinion of little use to you at this point. Practice landing on the beginning 1/4 of the runway. Otherwise go around. If too fast just use rudder to skid a little and turn 180 before end of runway. Skidding will bleed off lots of speed. When mastered this then practice more complicated stuff. I am a firm believer in a landing above stall speed at all times. What do you have tO lose on sim time anyway. Welcome to a great hobby!

bikerbc 11-21-2012 08:08 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
I have been flying for 40 yrs and I would never start skidding to slow down...Thats what your brakes are for....

unix4linux 11-21-2012 08:14 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: bikerbc

I have been flying for 30 yrs and I would never Turn 180 and start skidding to slow down...Thats what your brakes are for....
Which brakes?
<br type="_moz" />

unix4linux 11-21-2012 08:15 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Thank you all for the wonderful tips. I am looking forward to some more sim time tonight :)

flycatch 11-21-2012 08:47 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Landing is a matter of approach angle and airspeed. Get off the simulator and practise in the real world. Find an instructor that devotes half his time to take off and landings. Under his guidance the probability of becoming proficient in these two mandatory manuvers will greatly increase.

bikerbc 11-21-2012 03:17 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
You know those things down by your feet that you are useing to put your plane into the skid ...they can be used as brakes too....you press forward with your toes...Our models dont have them so I am not sure what you think your Heavy Metal Skiding has to do with anything ...

Granpooba 11-21-2012 03:32 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
You will naturally slow down with age. Don't worry, its coming. :) Just kidding or course . ;)

bikerbc 11-21-2012 04:03 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Flycatch is much more to the point...Approach angle and air speed......Your air speed that you asked about is controled by elevator , The altitude is controled by throttle......If you are dropping too fast you add a few of clicks of throttle...If you already have your throttle set for landing and you are going too fast you ease back on the stick and let it settle in....As he suggests find yourself an instructor if you can and ask him to devote some time to touch and goes......

Granpooba 11-21-2012 04:07 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: BubbasanJohn

How longs is the runway at your field? Shorter than the real flight sim? I would NOT stress running off the end of the runway if you are landing close to the beginning of the runway in the first place. I fly heavy metal and alot of the techniques describe above are, in my opinion of little use to you at this point. Practice landing on the beginning 1/4 of the runway. Otherwise go around. If too fast just use rudder to skid a little and turn 180 before end of runway. Skidding will bleed off lots of speed. When mastered this then practice more complicated stuff. I am a firm believer in a landing above stall speed at all times. What do you have tO lose on sim time anyway. Welcome to a great hobby!
If you do not land above stall speed, its called a CRASH !! ;)

OliverJacob 11-21-2012 04:08 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
The simulator is a very good way to practice landings.

Your rc plane will land the same way, as you know by now, landings are not easy and need a lot of training.
My guess is - cut the throttle sooner then you are used to. You need to bleed off airspeed and your trainer
floats better then you think.

Also if you come close to the ground, you will hit the 'ground effect' - sort of an air cushion, your descend will slow down and
you will keep floating with an excessive airspeed.

You can make very smooth landings just using the throttle, with very little elevator input

oneaew@msn.com 11-21-2012 04:10 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
YOU NEED TO DO MORE LANDINGS>> TAKE OFF .. MAKE 2 TURNS THEN LAND>> THEN TAKE OFF AGAIN DO IT ALL OVER THAT WAY YOU WILL GET MORE LANDINGS YOU AN GET AROUND 10 LANDINGS PER FLIGHT BETTER THEN ONE LANDING PER FLIGHT

AA5BY 11-21-2012 05:15 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
I've two offerings. First, program 5-7 mph of wind coming down the runway on your simulater. It will make landing the trainer much easier. The second, is to trim the plane for a proper power off glide slope rather than for level flight at full power. Trainers usually have asymmetrical wings and at faster speeds, they lift more and the elevator very often gets trimmed for full power by trimming it down some. When power is then cut, the plane has down trim and the glide slope is too steep and thus too fast.

Those of us who were mentored by old free flight geezers heard it often... trim the elevator for a proper glide slope and then deal with power on climbing by either reducing power or changing the engine thrust angle.

Assuming the plane is balanced properly, trim the elevator so that when at idle the nose of the plane as others have pointed out, drops only very slightly. This can be tested using lots of altitude by cutting the power and gliding the plane down the length of the runway without giving any elevator control. It should not slow enough that it is hard to maintain coarse, if it does... trim the elevator down slightly. Nor should it descend too rapidly and gain speed, if it does trim the elevator up slightly.

Landings are much easier if the plane is trimmed for a proper glide slope because then it is mostly about keeping the wings level and maintaining course. And, it is now much easier to follow the advice others have offered and manage some up elevator to present some angle of attack along with a little throttle because now the fall back to neutral stick exist.

Bozarth 11-21-2012 09:41 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Trim the elevator for a slower airspeed. Trims are adjustable, so adjust them. Flying around at full throttle (i.e. faster) requires a different elevator trim setting compared to slow flight / final approach airspeed. Adjusting the trim is much easier than trying to hold the elevator stick in some other position than neutral.

Kurt

Hossfly 11-21-2012 11:03 PM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: unix4linux

Thank you all for the wonderful tips. I am looking forward to some more sim time tonight :)
Quote:

ORIGINAL: unix4linux

Thank you all for the wonderful tips. I am looking forward to some more sim time tonight :)
Unix4. you are getting a lot of information, and much may well be a bit beyond your stage. Now, personally I don't like simulators for initial training. OTOH, after a few flights in a real trainer, you can certainly improve your skills in a simulator, if for no other reason, you know what you are trying to accomplish. Like learning to fly 1:1 scale if you are solo all the time, you are simply praticing mistakes. A good instructor is worth the time spent.
In any airplane there is very little time during any period, and especially in the approach and landing phase, where any one rule works ALL the time. Let's analyze a run-of-the-mill landing pattern.

Mentally place yourself ( actually the airplane but think on it) on the downwind leg directly across from yourself. Now is the time to slow to like 30-40% of the normal speed.
That means you throttle back, and hold the nose up with elevator. The airplane starts to slow. If you can trim in the proper back-pressure on the elevator that is fine. Otherwise learn to hold the back pressure. Remember at this time you may have a fair tailwind, so the airplane will be flyng on AIRSPEED, but your perception is GROUNDSPEED. You may think it is moving fast, yet the airplane is flying through the airmass and that airmass is moving downwind also, there fore the airspeed for lift is LESS than that speed that YOU see.
At about 30-40 degrees off the straight across point yuu roll into a bank to turn cross-wind. A square pattern is best to learn with but a rounded pattern is OK. When you start rolling, the lift vector rolls also, as it remains perpendicular to the lateral axis, wing tip to tip. Therefore the same angle-of-attack (lift vector) that kept you flying before the turn is less in the vertical leg. You will have to use a bit more elevator to keep the glide path as you wish. Then your machine will began to slow as you added a higher angle-of-attack to the wing. That induces additional lift, threfore more drag, the airspeed will slow and you have to add more throttle, albeit just a tad.
Now you are turning onto final and you are slower than on the downwind, as you are now into a headwind, which reduces the groundspeed. You are aiming to some point on your runway, and if the airplane seems to be losing ltitude, jazz some throttle up. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU SEE A RISE IN ALTITUDE. Jazz the throttle up and down as you need it. You most likely will NOT be able to retrim, especially with the transmitters that have digital trim on the elevator. (They are terrible for elevator trim. Jus' Hate 'em Jus' hate 'em) So you need to be able to learn how to HOLD whatever pressure you need on final.

One other item: Maybe 2! as you start the landing itself, you will be coming back with the throttle. Be gentle. In reality as you pull back, while trying to touchdown, reducing throttle removes the accelerated airflow over the horizontal stabilizer, thus reducing the ability of the elevator to hold the wing in a landing attitude, thus you will continue to add another tad of UP. So many props get broken at that point as the new pilot-to-be releases the back pressure on the elevator about the same time he pulls the throttle back to touchdown. No need to try to patent such a maneuver as it gets done many times. :D BTDT

Don't forget the wind on the nose makes the airplane actually flying faster in the air mass, than apparent over the ground, so use the throttle for short blasts (just a tadd blast) and back - better to do it sevral short times than wait until you see the results of holding a long movement.
Good approaches and landings are the results of knowing what the airplane feels, being ahead of the natural hazzards that will attack the machine if YOU let them, and your not allowing the AIRPLANE to CONTROL YOU!

Don't worry much about running off the runway with a simulator. If you fly any decent Trainer, you will very likely never have such a problem and if grass it's much better.


This thread has a lot of good information from a lot of good fliers, mesh it all together, and fit it to work for YOU. Just remember that YOU are the CAPTAIN and that machine does what YOU want it to do. Don't take NO for an answer! Best of luck to you.

bingo field 11-22-2012 03:30 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
As everyone pointed out the mechanics of getting back on the ground, I will point out one thing myself. Practice, practice, practice. You simply have to spend time flying and landing to get this understood between your brain and your fingers. Someone mentioned touch and go's, that is an excellent way to get in practice. I spend a lot of time shooting touch and go's with my trainer plane and my intermediate models, there is no substitute for experience, and the only way to gain it is to just keep doing it. By the end of your first session, you will have learned a lot, by the end of your first season, you will have made great gains in your skill. Just keep practicing. ;)

jetmech43 11-22-2012 03:47 AM

RE: How do I slow down?
 
altitude-power airspeed=pitch


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:08 PM.