DrMotor

Made a few small corrections, and changes to improve clarity -to posts 4, 10 & 11...

DrMotor

HAVE WE ALL BEEN SEDUCED BY CLEVER MARKETING …. ?

So: The Turnigy SK3 3542-1000Kv is the exact same identical motor to the Hacker A30-12 L ...
-And of course we know that Turnigy SK3 and Hacker motors are both made side-by-side in the same SunRay Technology factory in Shenzhen, China.
-And we can also see that the exact same internal working parts are used for both the Turnigy SK3 and the Hacker A30 motors, when they are manufactured together in the SunRay Tech factory.

And yet, the Turnigy SK3 is only ¼ of the cost of the identical Hacker A30 motor ...

-Now: The extremely clear result of this investigation, simply cannot be argued with. It cannot be disputed since the evidence is so very clear.Indeed, it is so obvious, that even a mollusc is able to see that the Turnigy SK3 3542-1000Kv is the exact same identical motor as the Hacker A30-12 L motor.

Without any doubt, the fact thata$27 Turnigy SK3 motor is totally and completely identical toa $110 Hacker motor is going to surprise almost everyone, and by this we probably mean literally tens and tens of thousands of people, all over the world ...
-This is because we have ALL been seduced by the very clever Hacker marketing and publicity over the years -which tries to convince us that their purple motor is somehow “better” or “higher quality” or “better performance” than many other same size motors -some of them cheaper than Hacker motors. And let us be honest -we have all allowed ourselves to be seduced by this type of marketing …
It has actually been suspected for some time, that Hacker motors might be just one of a large number of motor brands producedby the SunRay Technology factory -see, for instance:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=135
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=193
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=183
http://www.glos-mfc.co.uk/info/electric-motors.htm
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...&postcount=290 (the "starred" website that is auto removed by RCU is: FG)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cacheB3VPL6w6mkJ:www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp%3Fm%3D11428159+SK3+F3A+motor-same+as+Hacker+F3A,+but+29%25+of+cost+..%3F&cd=1&h l=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

DrMotor

HACKER IS JUST ONE OF THE MANYRE-BRANDERS, OFSUNRAY TECHMOTORS

AllHacker outrunner motors (upto and including the A60-size) are all made in the very large OEM factory called SunRay Technology in Shenzhen, China. -Hacker are just one of the 30, 40, or maybe 50 customers of this large and major OEM factory. Hyperion is another customer, Schweighofer (i.e. LiPolice motors) is another customer, Shulman Aviation is another customer, Extreme Flight is another customer, HobbyKing is another customer, Gens Ace is yet another customer; Horizon Hobby is also yet another customer -because SunRay Tech also make all the Losi car brushless motors and all the Losi Xcelorin car ESC's ... and so on … and so on … and so on …
see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11470217

-Hacker is just a "Re-Brander" -Nothing more, and nothing less... -Very simply, Hacker just buys their motors from SunRay Technology in a purple colour. Hyperion get blue, Torque get red, Gens Ace get green, Pelikan Foxy get black can with blue end housings, Precision Aerobatics and BMI Spitz both get black can with silver end housings, and so we go on …. and on … and on … and on ...

Indeed, ALL the other 30 or 40 or maybe 50 OEM customers of SunRay Technology get their motors in a very slightly different outside colour, and also sometimes with slightly different end housings. And there were are; There is nothing more complicated than that.
-SunRay Tech is just a very large and extremely major OEM company, that makes their motors for many tens of their OEM customers. -And the basic motor used, under the different colour outer cover of each brand, is EXACTLY the same inside, for ALL of the 30 or 40 different "SunRay brands" -including Hacker and Extreme Flight Torque motors ...

OliverJacob

My Feedback: (12)

Interesting facts, some Hacker reps won't like to see this. The 'traditional' manufacturers avoid comparing their products to the Chinese alternatives for a reason.
I am all for spending some extra $ for a product made in the US, but most of our equipment comes from China anyways.

Now I am in the market for some helicopter servos and wonder if the one sold by HK are up to par with the more expensive ones.

DrMotor

Thanks very much for this comment, Oliver. I am grateful

DrMotor

Oliver, what "Hacker reps" might like, and might not like, is just not my concern.
My ONLY concern has been to find the truth of the whole situation with these brushless motors ...
And very clearly now, we have the real truth ...
It has taken some time to get all the evidence to completely prove the situation, but we have it now ...

DrMotor

Just let me point out, Oliver, that we are NOT just talking about "Chinese alternatives" here ... And by "Chinese alternatives" I presume you mean the Turnigy SK3 motors available from HobbyKing, which we can see are the exact same motor (internally) as Hacker and Extreme Flight Torque motors.
However, Hacker and Extreme Flight Torque motors are ALSO completely identical with:
Z-series Hyperion -Aircraft World, Japan
Shulman Aviation FURY -USA
Boost motors -from Pichler, Germany
Gens Ace -Germany
Common-Sense-RC -USA
Sonic Electric -USA
LiPolice -Schweighofer, Austria
Pelikan Foxy -RCM Pelikan, Czechoslovakia
Apache -AnyRC.com, Korea; & SlowFlyer, Switzerland
Pilotage Nova-Line -Russia / Ukraine
BMI Models "Spitz" motors -Germany
Precision Aerobatics Thrust motors -Australia & USA
Lipotech -Italy
JP E-Pro motors -UK

-because these are ALSO just a small selection of the motor brands made by the SunRay Tech factory.

So it is not really "Chinese alternatives" that we are talking about here. We are more talking about all the many motor bands that are produced by the SunRay Technology factory, and then sold on by the various re-sellers.

DrMotor

Oliver, it is probably not a question at all, of "IF" "the ones sold by HK are up to par" ....
I have for a few years now, used the Power-HD digital servos which are available from HK and also from several other re-sellers.
And I have noted how Futaba servos, and JR servos, often cost $120 or $150 for a servo with exactly the same specs as a Power-HD servo which costs $15 or $20.
-e.g. http://www.servoshop.co.uk/index.php?make=Futaba & http://www.servoshop.co.uk/index.php?make=JR

It is 100% certain that ALL Futaba and JR servos will be made in a Chinese factory somewhere. And that very same factory will also produce exactly the same servo, under a different brand name (like "Clone-utaba") and this identical servo will be sold by re-sellers such as HiModel and HK for 20% of the cost of Futaba and JR servos ....
-We only pay $100 or $200 for a Futaba / JR servo, just to have their brand name on the label ...

Because that is just the way business and everything works in China; It is exactly the same for aeroplanes -we can often get Horizon Hobby planes, or Fliton planes, or the (older) QuiQue A/C planes, under a different brand name for 30% of the cost of the so-called "name brand". It is the same for brushless motors, for ESC's, for all radio gear;
-And for ladies handbags, and for TV sets, and for everything .... -Very very soon, it will be cars ...

DrMotor

For a reason I cannot explain, post #26 of this thread is not showing ... -It is VERY puzzling indeed ....
IT IS SHOWING NOW ...(5pm, UK time) -but the strange thing is that post #27 was showing 12 hours or more before post #26 appeared ...

DrMotor

DrMotor

HACKER IS JUST ONE OF THE MANY “SUNRAY RE-BRANDERS" ...

Indeed, that is exactly why ALL Hacker and E-F Torque and Hyperion-Z and Turnigy SK3 motors have IDENTICAL specs to all other SunRay-manufactured motors available from: Shulman Aviation FURY, Gens Ace, Common-Sense-RC, LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, Pelikan Foxy, Apache, Pilotage Nova-Line, Sonic Electric, Worlds Models, BMI Models "Spitz" motors, Precision Aerobatics Thrust motors, Waypoint E-series motors, Viper VA, Boost motors (from Pichler -sold by Robotbirds in UK), Lipotech, MegaPower Taurus, JP E-Pro motors; and also the now discontinued “ELE” motors ( - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455766 )
Also see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11426913/tm.htm

-ALL these above 30 or so different brands of motors, will ALL use exactly the same internal parts as Hacker and Torque motors … And of course, they will ALL have identical performance to Hacker and Torque motors, and to all the other motors made by SunRay Tech ...

-And it is also worth noting that many of these different brand motors listed above ( i.e. Gens Ace, LiPolice, Waypoint, OK Hobby Infinite, Turnigy SK3, Sonic Electric -to name just a few … ) cost just 1/3 or 1/4 of the same size and totally identical Hacker and Torque motors.

And why will virtually everyone be SO greatly surprised by the very clear result of this investigation -that the Turnigy SK3 is the exact same identical motor as the Hacker A30 ?
-Simply because everyone has the basic idea in their mind, that a brushless motor which costs $101 "OBVIOUSLY" "MUST A GREAT DEAL BETTER" than a motor which costs only $27 ... -That is the basic logic that we have ALL used to convince ourselves that a Hacker or an E-F Torque motor “MUST BE” so much better than a Gens Ace, or a LiPolice, or a Waypoint, or a Hyperion-Z, or an OK Hobby Infinite, or a Turnigy SK3 motor …
-The Hacker and Torque motors typically cost at least 4 times more than motors with these other very well and highly respected brand names. And because Hacker and Torque cost 4 times more, it has seemed perfectly “obvious” to all of us that the Hacker and Torque might have some “magic ingredient ” that will make them substantially better than all the other (cheaper)motors from the other brands …

And -How wrong we ALL were …

jollyroger

My Feedback: (6)

Verrrry interesting.
However there is one type of Hyperion outrunner not copied or sold by other retail brands which is of course the GS Glider series with the beveled front end bell.
One has to wonder why it is that companies such as Hyperion and Hacker charge so much for their motors if they're buying them from the same OEM manufacturer as the others.

Oliver, as far as servos go, I have been using some of the smaller mini and micro servos such as Blue Bird, Blue Arrow and others and found them to be ok. For larger servos for larger planes, I still use HItec. Companies such as JR, Futaba, Airtronics and Spectrum DX have a reputation to protect and probably very closely monitor the manufacturer. I know Hitec Radios are made in S.Korea so one might assume the servos are made there as well. It all depends on what size plane you're going to fly with them. If it's a foamy and not too big you probably would do ok with the Chinese versions I presume you saw them at H.K. I have no idea where the big name companies get their servos but they are good especially JR. Who knows where Jeti gets their servos, maybe they make their own.
For large planes and especially if you've got some money invested in them, I personally stay with the major brands...they have a long track record of proven reliability and of course customer service. After all if you've got hundreds or even thousands in a plane, heli or boat, would you be willing to use a $10 servo from H.K? I know I would not.

DrMotor

I am very pleased you find it interesting, jollyroger; You might have said "jolly" good, Roger ...

DrMotor

I have not so far looked at Hyperion "GS" motors -I have looked a Z-Hyperion motors, because we know for certain these are made at the SunRay Tech factory along with Torque and Hacker motors, and all the others.
-I will be showing the results of testing the Hyperion Z3019-12T, in a few days.
I will have a look at these GS motors.

Hyperion GS motors are not the only Hyperion ones with a tapered front housing; The Hyperion Z3007, Z3013, Z3019 and Z3025 all have tapered "noses" as well, and we know these are made by SunRay Technology.I suspect that Hyperion G and GS motors were also made by SunRay, but I do not know for sure ...
http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopdi...que+outrunners

DrMotor

Quite so ...

Perhaps the answer might be... profit, and money ...? and possibly greed ...?

Hyperion are not as expensive as as Hacker and Torque; see http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11432098 posts 20to25
If you buy Hyperion-Z motors from Aircraft World in Japan, they are much less than half the price of the identical same-size Hacker motor ...
-seehttp://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11465414

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

I read this thread with interest in the technical results. I don't care if two motors are identical as much as I care whether they provide comparable results. Debating or proving whether they come from the same factory is unimportant to me.

However I do recognize that there is is a difference between price and value.

Price is what I pay.
Value is my measure of what I get for what I spend.

I include service, support, quality control, timely results and other factorsas part of value. So the fact that I can buy a motor from one source for $30 and a comparable motor from another source is $60 is easy to measure. But if I have had problems with the quality control from the first source and consistent results from the second speaks to value, not price.

I value documentation. I have purchased cheap motors from time to time. Many have come with no documentation at all. But when I pay a higher price I expect better documentation because documentation costs money to create.

I value support and support costs money. When I have a problem I want help and I want it on a timely basis.

I have purchased cheap motors and had them show up DOA. When I contacted the supplier I was told to send it back for eval. The cost to send it back was more than the price of the motor, so I threw it away. Value received? Zero.

I purchased a replacement from another source, more than twice the price,and got a motor that has worked flawlessly. Value received? High!

I value innovation. Those "high priced" providers make more profit and can afford to plow that profit into new designs and innovation. The "cloners" feed off that design and spend their efforts copying the work of others. Some of us don't care about that. I do.

So, each of us have different opinions of what is price and what is value. I am more than happy to pay a higher price to receive higher value if it leads to a higher level of satisfaction. That does not show up on the test bench.

Of course, your smileage may vary.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

You know very well why all of yourposts appear and disappear then reappear again. Don't make me spell it out for everyone else.

carlnoki

Dr. M

I enjoyed your side by side eval of the 2 motors and the results
you found for both of them.

IT is a good piece to read with what is going on here in the states with sequestaion (spelling)and all.
Finding an good quality item ata lower more affordable price these days is good to know.

I used to run Nitro boats and they have been converted over to FE power. much easier on the
pocket book in my case.

I think i made sense here................... LOL

one more thing, how do you like your Monolog? and what size is it?

Carl

az3d

My Feedback: (59)

Good work. I like the detail.

DrMotor

Jollyroger, I am not sure l can totally agree with you here. It is not my intention, in any way, to seem like I am supporting companies like HiModel or HK, but here is the issue:

1 to 2 years ago, I bought a Sebart Angel 50 -a beautiful plane. Sebart recommends JR DS9401 or DS8301 servos for this plane.
JR DS9401 servos are $125 each (=£81.60 - http://www.area51-distribution.com/s...-digital-servo). DS8301 are even more expensive.
Now, the plane cost $340. And we are looking at $500 for 4 servos. It just does not make any sense .... !!!!
The JR DS9401 is digital and has specs: 42g / 5.0kg / 0.17sec

So: We look at excellent alternatives. We find HK has the Power-HD 5680BB servo -it is digital and has specs 42g / 6.5kg / 0.14sec
This servo has MORE torque and is FASTER than the JR DS9401 -and guess what, it is just $16.80 from HK - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...5kg_14sec.html

So I got these Power-HD servos, and they have worked PERFECTLY for 2 years. They are superb high quality.
-And theyare 1/8 of the cost of the JR servo ...

So: Why on EARTH pay $500 for 4 JR servos ...?????

DrMotor

AND WAS EXACTLY THE SAME FOR POWERSET FOR ANGEL 50 ....

Sebart recommends the Hacker A50-16 S motor for this plane, and the Hacker X-70 Pro S-BEC ESC.
The A50-16 S motor is $176 (=£114) and the Hacker X-70 Pro ESC is $153 (=£99.99 - http://www.westlondonmodels.com/Elec...O-Pro18026.asp )
So: We are looking at ~$330 for motor & ESC, for a $350 plane ... !!!!

Now: The Hyperion Z4025-16T is then EXACT SAME IDENTICAL MOTOR to the Hacker A50-16 S motor -and is only $65.80 from Aircraft World in Japan - http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11465414
A VERY similar motor is the Turnigy SK3 5055-430kv which costs $49.23 - http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11464218

AND: The Hacker X-70 Pro ESC is EXACTLY THE SAME ESC "inside" as the Turnigy dlux 70A S-BEC ESC -they are BOTH made at the SunRay Tech factory, and they BOTH have completely identical firmware -except that that the dlux ESC also has a data logging function- http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11459980 & http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11464409
However, the Turnigy dlux 70A S-BEC costs only $29.71 - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...a_Logging.html

So: We get the SK3 motor and dlux ESC for a total of $79 -And they both work really superbly, and are very bit as good, in every way, as the Hacker motor and ESC which costs $330
( -the SK3 motor is actually MORE powerful than the Hacker, because it has a 4030 stator, rather than a 4025 in the case of the Hacker; And the dlux ESC is actually BETTER than the Hacker ESC because it also has data logging ....!!!!!! )

Just where is the sense in all this ...?

DrMotor

Thanks very much indeed for this comment, Ed. I appreciate this very much.

DrMotor

Ed, it is not my intention in any way to support or promote companies like HiModel or HK -after all, they do not need any help at all ....
-But with respect, Ed -you are talking about a 2-fold price difference, $30 to $60 -that would not be so bad. After all, you can sometimes see household goods in the local corner shop that are twice the price of the supermarket.
BUT: The REAL situation that we have here, is a 4-FOLD PRICE DIFFERENCE for what is the exact same identical brushless motor. There is little to be gained by playing this down, Ed. It is simply a MASSIVE AND ENORMOUS PRICE DIFFERENCE -for exactly the same identical motor. And I am sure that everyone will agree that this is the case.
-It is actually quite shocking, and is also to some extent quite cynical ...

DrMotor

I can see where you are coming from, Ed.
All I can say here, is that companies like Gens Ace, OK Hobby Infinite, Hyperion, HobbyKing, Waypoint, Sonic Electric, RCM Pelikan and Puffin Models etc etc -all have EXCELLENT documention and information on the motors that they supply, and which are manufactured by SunRay Technology;
So you are not IN ANY SENSE getting less documentation or information by purchasing an identical motor from companies like this ... -compared to the much more expensive completely identical motor from companies like e.g. Hacker and E-F Torque

-Also: on the HobbyKing website there are a great number of User Comments about each item, and often a great deal ofuseful information about e.g prop choice, current draw of a particular motor, can be found in these User Comments

It should be pointed out that we are NOT talking about so-called "cheapie" "budget" motors here. For instance, we are not taking about XYH-EMP, or Emax, or Suppo, or Tower-Pro, or Keda, or KMS, or Mystery motors, and others like them.
-We are talking about a Turnigy SK3 motor, which is made by the very same factory that makes Hacker, Torque and Hyperion-Z motors. We have shown here that the Turnigty SK3 uses all the same parts as the Hacker motor, and has completely identical performance.
-It just so happens that this SK3 motor is sold for $27 by HobbyKing, whereas Hacker themselves choose to sell their own branded SunRay motor for $101.

But of course, the Turnigy SK3 cannot, in any sense, be described as a "cheap" or a "cheap chinese" or a budget" or a "chinese budget" motor; or as "HK junk" ...

Indeed, if someone DOES describe the Turnigy SK3 as a "cheap chinese" motor or as "HK junk", then because the SK3 is completely identical to the Hacker motor, then they will also be saying that the Hacker is a "cheap chinese" motor and that the Hacker motor is "junk" ....

DrMotor

Ed, I make 3 brief, relevant points here:
1. If you think that Hacker has taken any part in the design of their purple motors, then you are almost certainly mistaken see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11470217
-All the design and engineering of these motors has been done by the OEM company SunRay Technology. And Hacker just buy various of the generic SunRay motors, and have them made in a purple colour. Torque buy the same SunRay generic motors, and get them made in a red colour; Hyperion buy the same SunRay generic motors, and get them made in a blue colour; Gens Ace buy the same SunRay generic motors, and get them made in a green colour; HobbyKing buy the same SunRay generic motors, and get them made in a chrome colour; Pelikan Foxy buy the same SunRay generic motors, and get them made with a black can and blue end housings; and so on; and so on; and so on; .......
see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11443146

2. So if you might think the much higher price that Hacker charges for the same identical motor provides money that is then spent by Hacker on innovation and new designs, it would seem thatis very unlikely to be the case.

3. Finally, other motors that SunRay Tech makes, such as Shulman Aviation FURY, Gens Ace, Common-Sense-RC, LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, Pelikan Foxy, Turnigy SK3 cannot be described as "clones" -they are just the same basic SunRay motor as Hacker and E-F Torque, but clothed with outer garments of a different colour and sometimes a slightly different style.