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  1. #51
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Thanks Ralph,

    Things started to get interesting with the motor mounts and nose gear. I thought about using a mount I could mount the nose gear in. The problem then is it is really unsupported. I ended up using Sig mounts and Nose gear. I had to make a couple of slight alterations to get everything in there and not have the tank too low. The motor sits a bit lower than the plan (can't raise the tank higher than the fuselage) , which then realy squeezes the nose gear, so I had to add just a bit to the bottom (about 1/4") So I will alter the final plans to account for that. Otherwise it is shaping up ok for me so far.

    Bill

  2. #52
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Next up is to mark a centerline from the front to rear of the fuselage where the vertical fin will mount. A bit of epoxy and a square finish up the installation.

    Once dry I cut the filler blocks from scrap wood and pre sand them to fit. It takes a little longer but it is easier than sanding them after they are installed.

  3. #53
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Here we start the engine mounting saga. I found the Sig small mounts work perfect and leave room for the nose gear. Even though they say "up to .19" I still had to cut them back a bit for length. The issue was the nose gear buts up against the crankcase. So I extended the mounting with a piece of hardwood block and mounted it up. After trial fitting the steering arm, I drilled out the holes for the steering and throttle pushrod tubes. It ain't perfect but after the hatch and cowl bottom it will only stick out 1/4"

  4. #54
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Once I had a direction on the nose gear, I installed the cowl cheeks and roughed out my clearences for the exhaust and needle valve. Then drilled out the holes for the fuel lines. Epoxied in the pushrod tubes for both steering and throttle.

    I made up the steering pushrod and tested it for clearance and throws. I went ahead and installed it as it will be a pain after the cowl bottom is on.

  5. #55
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Bill,

    moving along nicely!

    May I ask why you didn't install the nose gear bearing behind the firewall? It is narrow enough that it fits nicely between the separate engine beams. If you first install the bearing with blind nuts on the FW, you can then glass the FW front after recessing the blind nuts and after that drill for the engine beams with blind nuts behind the FW.

    I had a look at the dimensions of the shallow Hayes slim 6 oz tank and it seems like it might allow you to install it flush up against the fuse top with the battery underneath keeping the tank to carb relation a little more in line. It fits nicely length wise too.

    Just some ideas.

    David.

  6. #56
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Hi David,

    I looked at moving the nose gear bearing to the rear, but then I ran into tank clearence issues. Remember I am using a bottom hatch and the ply wing dowel doubler combined with the 2 deg downthrust in the firewall makes the bottom smaller. I tried a Dubro 6oz as well. Won't fit at all with the nose gear behind the firewall. It will just squeeze in with the gear in front, but on it's side. The Hayes 4oz fits with room to spare all over. With the Norvel it wouldn't bother me to run a 4oz as it burns about 35% less than a 25FX. A 15 or 18 would be fine with the 4oz as well (why carry the extra fuel weight if you don't use it?)

    The other choice was to move the engine a bit forward on the mounts, but I figured the small bit that hang's down was the best compromise.

  7. #57
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Up next is the bottom hatch. I am using 1/4" with a plywood doubler on top for strength and also to keep the the screws from sinking in. I first roughed out the balsa, then traced that onto a piece of 1/16 ply. After cutting it out I glued the two together and did my usual marble block sandwich to keep it flat.

  8. #58
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Have been making good progress this weekend. Good things as this week will leave me no time to play. Short week with much to do then the holidays.

    Anyway, I added the 1/4" to the bottom of the cowl and nose area, with breaks where it needed to curve. As you can see, I don't get real particular about making it pretty on something I have to do a lot of shaping on anyway. Balsa sands too easy to sweat it too much.

    While the nose dried, I sanding down the hatch for final fit and by then it was time to start shaping the nose. This is close enough for now, I'll take care of the rest durring final sanding. You can see the nose gear block only cost me about an 1/8", not perfect but I'll adjust the plans for it.

  9. #59
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    OK, got it almost to covering stage, still need to cut the ailerons and a few other items. But it is coming along. The pics will show why it has been a bear to get the motor and gear shoe-horned in there. The engines is large, but as light as a 15 so why not. I do have a throttle. This will have to do for a bit until after Thanksgiving.

  10. #60
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Happy Thanksgiving to all of you guys!

    I did get the landing gear cut and bent to shape, ailerons finished and the rest of the tailfeathers fit and finished. Looks like it's close to time to start fighting with some covering[8D]

  11. #61
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Hi Bill,

    I thought I'd post my recent discovery here as it seemed appropriate.

    Two 25 size engines were for sale: 1) a vintage NIB OS 25 FSR with muffler and 2) a vintage 2000's NIB Big Mig NV 25 also with muffler. I was interested in both so I thought I might bid. In the end I chose not to bid on the OS but did on the NV as I'm curious about these light, low fuel consumption engines. It should be pointed out that the OS has good front and rear ball bearings while the NV 25 I believe is a "plain bearing" engine (read bushing if I'm correct) like the OS LA series (and FP prior to that).

    The NV sold for under $40. The OS sold for close to $160!

    So someone is very interested in vintage Japanese OS 25 sized engines! For comparison, a more powerful (albeit perhaps heavier) modern OS 25AX goes for the same price while its larger 35AX actually sells for $5 less.

    David.

  12. #62
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Hi David,
    Did you win the NV25?
    As to plain bearing vs BB, I have yet to wear out a plain bearing Norvel, but I have a box of FP and LA that are. Might be Russian metal vs Japan. And yes, people are paying stupid prices for FX and FSR 25's right now. I think it is because the AX25 turns much lower rpm. Last I heard OS was going to do another run of the FX25's because of that.

  13. #63
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    OK, back from T-Day break. Here's the covering job so far. Stole the color scheme off the SPA site. Looked good to me and at least not the "Tower" scheme. Got the landing gear on and the motor mounted.
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  14. #64
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Moving along... I ran the fuel lines and secured the tank with foam. I've found if you keep it completely isolated fuel bubbles are never an issue.

    I also mounted the wheels. I had planned on using 2 1/4" , but it didn't look quite right so I ended up using 2" all around.
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  15. #65
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Next is the radio installation. I used a pair of GP B-8 servos for the ailerons. They are a tad bit heavier than the 9 gram servos, but have more torque and have held up better for me. Since the micro wire clevises are a bit too small for my liking, I use the Dubro EZ connectors. They hold great and are infinitely adjustable.

    There is enough room in the fuselage for a fairly standard install with room for good foam cushioning. I used Fut 3004's for the rudder and elevator and another B-8 for the throttle. Using braided cable seems to help insulate the small servo's from engine vibration, as well as being less critical of swing angles.

    Since the wing is a close fit to the elevator and rudder servos, I cut two slits in the deck and ran mu servo wires a bit forward then used trim tape to seal them in. That way I don't have to worry about any wires getting caught up in the servo arms.
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  16. #66
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    OK, getting closer. CG is pretty much right on the money with 1/2 tank of fuel. I am held up now by the canopy (my fault). I had the base all done and the canopy trimmed and fit. Then when I went to tint it with RIT dye, I had the water a bit too hot and curled up the canopy. Rookie mistake but I do those occasionally.

    Motor is in nice and tight. I test ran it an adjusted my throttle linkage. I am going to try a new prop on this, a 8.5 X 5.5 It seemed a good balance between speed and thrust. I turn an 8X7 at 15k (just under 100mph) and a 9X4 at 16.5k (62mph) The 8.5 X 5.5 turned 15.5k on the ground which should be around 80mph and still give good thrust. If that isn't enough I can just run the mousse can which adds another 2k to 25000 depending on the prop or drop on the full tuned pipe.
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  17. #67
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)


    hllywdb its a nice Kaos you are about to finish and hope it flies well , I have a couple comments around your servo and horn instalation, looking at picture from aileron servo, geometry isnt right arm should be 90ΒΊ ... horn looks forward from hinges line, it should be right over it not backwards nor forward just over it ... otherwise geometricaly it wont work right.

    I uploaded a file , hope it helps .

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Rafa.

  18. #68
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Thanks Rafa,
    It has been a long process, with the drawing/designing taking the longest.

    The arms are centered at 90, the angle of the picture distorts it a bit. I took a few more, some look forward, some look behind the hinge line. Here is one from the side. Excellent point though. I should have mentioned it myself.

    I understand the swing angle of the servo, but I think with this small a horn it is quite negligable. Here is a picture of the servo deflected. I can see how with a longer arm and a shorter distance between the servo and horn the angle would become much more pronounced.
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  19. #69
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Got the new canopy in tonight, will try tinting again in the morning.

    Put it on the scale today, all up at 45oz. That puts the wing loading at 19.19oz/sq. ft I believe the original 60 was around 21.5 and the Tower 40 is 22-24. This will also give me a thrust ratio of about 1.3 with the 8.5 X 5.5 without the pipe or mousse can. A 9X4 would give me stupid thrust numbers but I think I am better off with a balance of more speed. Can't wait to fly it now, but will have to wait until after the weekend.

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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    wow, looks like a kaos that stepped straight out of the 70's!

    wait, can airplanes 'step'?
    Go knife edge your cub!

  21. #71
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Thanks Rendegade,
    You have no idea how much it was killing me not to tweek/modernize some stuff while building/designing it. But the goal was to get a true Kaos in a 25 size that flew like a Kaos. So the only design changes I made were to keep the wing loading close to the original and whatever was needed to make stuff still fit at this size.

  22. #72

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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Oh I hear ya man, I just did a reduced scale supra-fly, which isn't much bigger than the kaos you've just milled out. It's not a large fuselage, but I can imagine the 25 is a whole lot worse!
    Go knife edge your cub!

  23. #73
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Looks better with the canopy. Got back in town last night and decided to try and get in a quick maiden today even through conditions weren't perfect. Wind was running 15 to 18mph, not exactly ideal for a 25 size aircraft.

    Anyway, 1st impressions.. WOW! I had my hands full between the wind and having the control surfaces having LOTS of authority on the first flight. I think I underestimated how little I needed. Rolls were pretty much like a high speed drill. I dropped the rates way back for the second flight (to about 1/8" on the ailerons) and it was a lot more enjoyable but still a bit hot.

    CG was quite close and not sure I need to change it much. Spins were easy and quick to recover from. It can get real slow before it stalls, so a bit of patience is required if you want to get to a full stall before entering the spin. Power was spot on and I am happy with the prop choice so far, but need some more flights in less wind to tell better. Take off is about 2/3 power and it pulls strong with little correction needed even at high climb rates.

    What surprised me is how much better than the Tower 40 size it flew. I was able to circle the field knife edge and needed little correction, even though I hadn't bothered to set up any coupling mixes as the Kaos is not known for knife edge due to the short tail moment.

    Landings were a no-brainer, even when the throws were set way to high. This plane just makes you look good.

    Back at the shop while I was making some control setup changes, I noticed the motor seemed a bit loose. Closer inspection revealed a split left motor mount. I think I may have just got a bad one as I have the identical mounts in a Kadet Senioreta with another Norvel 25 with many flights and "student" landings with no issues at all. So it will be Wednesday at the earliest before I can resume testing and setup. But for now, I am very pleased with it so far.
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  24. #74
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Bill,

    congrats on a successful maiden. A true vintage classic that you re-designed, built and finished in a retro look.

    Well done!

    David.

  25. #75
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added)

    Thanks David,

    My wife picked the classic color scheme out of the ones I was considering, have to give her kudo's on that one.

    The project has really illustrated to me the importance of staying close to the same thrust-to-weight ratios and wing loadings as the original when scaling. I had gone back and forth between 45" and 42" when designing and am glad I went with the 42". It also illustrates why this has been such a classic design for so many years. With a 25LA or FP up front and reduced throws it would make a great first low wing plane. It lands easier than a lot of trainers I've flown and handles the wind better than most of them too. On the other end I think if I ran a 9X4 or 10X3 and increased the throws it would 3D and hover, harrier, etc... with ease, although I'm sure Joe didn't envision that one!

    I think the 8" canopy would have worked better than the 7", so I am changing the plans to reflect that as well.


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