Just a little respect for the SPA...
11-20-2010, 04:54 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: kingaltair
ORIGINAL: flyingtheoldones
Duane, I have been told by a SPA member quite sometime ago, that classic pattern is about the competitions and not about the planes. I really remember that because that is when I really kept an eye on this thread and watched the BPA form. .....Some SPA members know what is was like to compete. So they went out looking for the newest design to compete, not really to drool over and just stare at. Which I know, mostly all the BPA guys sit and stare at their planes from time to time.
I could have been the one that said that, and I know I wrote that in my article for Model Aviation. What I mean is that compared to an organization like VR/CS which has in its rules that models must be built to "planform", (and are actually scored higher for being finished exactly like they were in the 60s), SPA's emphasis is on competition WITH vintage models, not the models themselves built exactly as they were. When I say "competition", I'm not talking about a real serious attitude where winning is the main goal...the main goal is for each individual to have a good time, and winning is secondary. Sure, when we're standing there in front of the judges, everyone is trying the best they can. People are competitive and want to fly well; it's all a question of what is the most important.
The noise regulation doesnt really make sense since electrics are quiter than both muffled 2 strokes and 4 strokes. I remember reading that they were disqualified because of an unfair advantage they had. You are mixing two different ideas together here, and comparing them. "Simple and Inexpensive" was the original goal of Mickey Walker, and compared to AMA pattern, (which is what Mickey had in mind), it is a LOT cheaper. The 4-strokes were allowed in the late 80s because compared to a non-piped 2-stroke, they were thought of as quieter. This point is not up for debate; that was the reason they were allowed. You either believe me or not.
Electrics are currently banned for an entirely different reason...obviously having nothing to do with noise. One of the things that made SPA successful was the self-imposed engine limit of a .60 2-stroke, or .91 4-stroke, (souped-up or not, it is still a .91). Many feel that electrics have an unfair advantage due to less mechanical problems, (more reliable), and they are hard to regulate power-wise compared to a firm .60 or .91 limit. That is the debate about electrics. There are quite a few people who say that flying the plane is the most important thing, and the fellowship at the contests and dinners is what really matters anyway.
...I wont score very high, but I dont think that would be because of my plane or set up, I'm sure it will be because I'm just a lousy pilot.but like I said, thats not what I'm looking for peronally out of this hobby.
We all start out that way. Those with more TALENT will rise to the top through practice, practice, practice. The people who practice the most tend to do the best.
DM
Duane, I have been told by a SPA member quite sometime ago, that classic pattern is about the competitions and not about the planes. I really remember that because that is when I really kept an eye on this thread and watched the BPA form. .....Some SPA members know what is was like to compete. So they went out looking for the newest design to compete, not really to drool over and just stare at. Which I know, mostly all the BPA guys sit and stare at their planes from time to time.
I could have been the one that said that, and I know I wrote that in my article for Model Aviation. What I mean is that compared to an organization like VR/CS which has in its rules that models must be built to "planform", (and are actually scored higher for being finished exactly like they were in the 60s), SPA's emphasis is on competition WITH vintage models, not the models themselves built exactly as they were. When I say "competition", I'm not talking about a real serious attitude where winning is the main goal...the main goal is for each individual to have a good time, and winning is secondary. Sure, when we're standing there in front of the judges, everyone is trying the best they can. People are competitive and want to fly well; it's all a question of what is the most important.
The noise regulation doesnt really make sense since electrics are quiter than both muffled 2 strokes and 4 strokes. I remember reading that they were disqualified because of an unfair advantage they had. You are mixing two different ideas together here, and comparing them. "Simple and Inexpensive" was the original goal of Mickey Walker, and compared to AMA pattern, (which is what Mickey had in mind), it is a LOT cheaper. The 4-strokes were allowed in the late 80s because compared to a non-piped 2-stroke, they were thought of as quieter. This point is not up for debate; that was the reason they were allowed. You either believe me or not.
Electrics are currently banned for an entirely different reason...obviously having nothing to do with noise. One of the things that made SPA successful was the self-imposed engine limit of a .60 2-stroke, or .91 4-stroke, (souped-up or not, it is still a .91). Many feel that electrics have an unfair advantage due to less mechanical problems, (more reliable), and they are hard to regulate power-wise compared to a firm .60 or .91 limit. That is the debate about electrics. There are quite a few people who say that flying the plane is the most important thing, and the fellowship at the contests and dinners is what really matters anyway.
...I wont score very high, but I dont think that would be because of my plane or set up, I'm sure it will be because I'm just a lousy pilot.but like I said, thats not what I'm looking for peronally out of this hobby.
We all start out that way. Those with more TALENT will rise to the top through practice, practice, practice. The people who practice the most tend to do the best.
DM
I gotta side with Roary on the electrics especially in the SPA. I don't think I'd wanna go that route. Itdoes make it more inviting for some though. I would REALLY like to see Bootalini come down from Canada with his Aurora.
Practice...yeah, I know.
Working on that. We don't really have much of any airfields out here. At least not for pattern. Planning to move to SD next year. Theres a beautiful field near Rapid City and I'm looking forward to getting some stick time in.. finally.DM
11-20-2010, 07:42 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Yes the BPA is the NEW CPA... We talked and put them together under on umbrella... Gary has donme a great job getting the group started and we are working together to make it grow, and have a bunch of contest. If you can fly SPA you can fly CPA same NON turnaround style patterns. We might be up to 6 contest fpr 2011 . waiting to hear on some of them now.
I know Dave Phillips will be having one (CPA contest) in April
scott cpa#2
I know Dave Phillips will be having one (CPA contest) in April
scott cpa#2
11-20-2010, 08:08 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
One note on electrics in CPA they are allowed as in the AMA 1976 rule book has them listed as a power source, Also back in 1975 and 1976 the max weight was 15 pounds it was latter when we went to 10 pounds.
a full set of rule books can be found at www.classicpatternassociation.com under the pattern section
scott
a full set of rule books can be found at www.classicpatternassociation.com under the pattern section
scott
11-20-2010, 11:50 AM
#30
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
If the SPA genuinely wants "simple and inexpensive" and then disallows electrics, they just killed the "simple" side of things for sure, and maybe even the "inexpensive." While the entry costs in electric can be higher, I have to say that my maintenance costs are FAR lower.
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old salts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up. Not with me on the sticks!
Andy
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old salts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up. Not with me on the sticks!
Andy
11-20-2010, 02:02 PM
#31
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: AndyKunz
If the SPA genuinely wants ''simple and inexpensive'' and then disallows electrics, they just killed the ''simple'' side of things for sure, and maybe even the ''inexpensive.'' While the entry costs in electric can be higher, I have to say that my maintenance costs are FAR lower.
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old farts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up.
Andy
If the SPA genuinely wants ''simple and inexpensive'' and then disallows electrics, they just killed the ''simple'' side of things for sure, and maybe even the ''inexpensive.'' While the entry costs in electric can be higher, I have to say that my maintenance costs are FAR lower.
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old farts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up.
Andy
Don’t try to figure out the rule logic it will give you a headache.
11-20-2010, 06:03 PM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Look, I am the original poster for this thread. The first post explains what this thread is about, "a little Respect for the SPA" We all have our own ideas and are passoinate about seeing, and for some, helping this part of the hobby grow back into popularity. PLEASE edit yourself Before you post so you dont offend others. That is offensive and is not constructive toward advancing our little group. I'm sure others may feel the same way, but please gentlemen, a little respect for the SPA. After all THEY are the reason why we are here.
Think about it. They allow a Sr. Falcon to perform in competition... that is just fricken cool!
The way I see it. We already have the classes tocompete inpretty much what ever we want. IMO I believe the SPA is affraid of losing what they have to the growing BPA style. Cant say I blame them. I definately wouldn't want people offending members, at an event, that have been working as hard as they have for almost 20 years to keep classic planes alive.
The thread we are in right now was here before the BPA. Thats what I mean by a little respeact for these guys who have helped us (BPA style guys) to have waht we have now...
DM
Think about it. They allow a Sr. Falcon to perform in competition... that is just fricken cool!
The way I see it. We already have the classes tocompete inpretty much what ever we want. IMO I believe the SPA is affraid of losing what they have to the growing BPA style. Cant say I blame them. I definately wouldn't want people offending members, at an event, that have been working as hard as they have for almost 20 years to keep classic planes alive.
The thread we are in right now was here before the BPA. Thats what I mean by a little respeact for these guys who have helped us (BPA style guys) to have waht we have now...
DM
11-20-2010, 06:55 PM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
DM,
a fair amount of guys are crossing back and forth and using planes without pipes and retracts.. Chicago and Huntsville was a example of this and from the great fellowship that was talked about everyone got along very well. CPA is a growing group and the rules are pretty easy ....Have fun flying the classic planes...granted there is a bit more than that but not much...
scott
spa # 239
cpa #2
a fair amount of guys are crossing back and forth and using planes without pipes and retracts.. Chicago and Huntsville was a example of this and from the great fellowship that was talked about everyone got along very well. CPA is a growing group and the rules are pretty easy ....Have fun flying the classic planes...granted there is a bit more than that but not much...
scott
spa # 239
cpa #2
11-23-2010, 08:27 PM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
In defense of electric powered planes for SPA, they do lower the noise even more than the four strokes do and I am convinced there is no competitive advantage other than fewer deadsticks. If some one wants to over power a 60 size plane I say let em do it. They will pay a penalty somewhere down the line in weight of the battery, excessively long gear struts and all for what? More Power? Well truth is I will be decreasing the nitro content of my fuel because my OS 91 Four stroke makes TOO MUCH POWER for my Dirty Birdy. I am not the only one coming to this conclusion, another top competitor is doing the same at my field. Right now you can only use so much power and present well in a contest. That's another reason I will not join BPA. They like to fly too fast and I think that detracts from the presentation. I once purpose built a plane to win my club speed record. I was successful but soon found that all I was doing was turning around. It ended up NOT being the fun I had anticipated it to be. I am probably the slowest competitor who flies in SPA contests. I just feel flying slow gives me loads of time to correct those little heading errors before the judges get involved. But then it's all in the eye of the beholder. Stickman/vic
11-23-2010, 08:51 PM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Vic,
CPA is not about speed.. it is about flying the old classic planes and the fellowship. We fly the published AMA patterns from the rule books and the group is based on having fun.
Yes some people like the speed of the planes, but it is not needed to fly a CPA contest. I'm pleased that you are on the CPA mail list and look forward to any input you might have.
Scott
CPA is not about speed.. it is about flying the old classic planes and the fellowship. We fly the published AMA patterns from the rule books and the group is based on having fun.
Yes some people like the speed of the planes, but it is not needed to fly a CPA contest. I'm pleased that you are on the CPA mail list and look forward to any input you might have.
Scott
11-24-2010, 12:23 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Duane is right, the SPAconcept is really fun. I have been fortunate to fly just about every kind of pattern aircraft there is and in SPA, BPA, AMA and F3A competitions. To me SPA and BPAare the same, I find no competitive advantage to retracts and pipes, they are just cool!The only plane I currentlyown, a KillerKaos,has neither and I will not hesitate to fly itin any of the above listed pattern "divisions" 
. Ibuilt it from an$85 kitandall readytofly I have less than $300 in it. I think that'swhat they mean by simple and cheap!
Electricsnot really my thing, but Ihave zero problems competing with them. The non-turnaround patterns level the playing field...just about any pattern design from the 1960s on can fly them wellthat 1971 WC video floating around out there validates this nicely. Turnaround changes things and it's hard to argue that equipment matters and that's where things can get complicated, but even thereit's only F3A where it's really nuts. I can fly the entire AMAMasters sequence with the Kaos and may just seehow well I can do with it next season! Crazy, huh?
Iappreciate theSPAand am a member. I've been involved withthe BPA/CPA bit too and support the concept 100%. Though I am spread thin with lifeand would love to see a merger, I think just having choices is good enough for now. Thank you to all who have madethat happen.
Ryan
. Ibuilt it from an$85 kitandall readytofly I have less than $300 in it. I think that'swhat they mean by simple and cheap! Electricsnot really my thing, but Ihave zero problems competing with them. The non-turnaround patterns level the playing field...just about any pattern design from the 1960s on can fly them wellthat 1971 WC video floating around out there validates this nicely. Turnaround changes things and it's hard to argue that equipment matters and that's where things can get complicated, but even thereit's only F3A where it's really nuts. I can fly the entire AMAMasters sequence with the Kaos and may just seehow well I can do with it next season! Crazy, huh?
Iappreciate theSPAand am a member. I've been involved withthe BPA/CPA bit too and support the concept 100%. Though I am spread thin with lifeand would love to see a merger, I think just having choices is good enough for now. Thank you to all who have madethat happen.
Ryan
11-24-2010, 01:12 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: stickman/vic
Hey Scott, I said BPA, not CPA
Hey Scott, I said BPA, not CPA
Why else would you want to stuff a gem like a Jett BSA 100 in the nose and top it off with a Pipe? That would be crazy fast!!
DM
11-24-2010, 06:45 AM
#43
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
The SPA has helped keep some great designs alive! I think CPA will help with a few the SPA cut offdate misses. Only a couple of kit mfg's, but lots of plans available. Thanks!!
11-24-2010, 07:28 AM
#44
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Phil Kraft had a late "FLI Serie's" plane, I think tapered wing, built in canopy crutch back to the tail, fuselage. Anyone know the name ? I wouldn't mind putting one together.
Above FLI, meaning Kwik Fli serie's.
Crank
Above FLI, meaning Kwik Fli serie's.
Crank
11-24-2010, 10:17 AM
#46
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Ryan,
Nice to see you back again, our "staff assistant" [sm=shades_smile.gif]
Have fun, with classic pattern flying whatever organization you are in.
Cees
Nice to see you back again, our "staff assistant" [sm=shades_smile.gif]
Have fun, with classic pattern flying whatever organization you are in.
Cees
11-24-2010, 11:37 AM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: AndyKunz
If the SPA genuinely wants ''simple and inexpensive'' and then disallows electrics, they just killed the ''simple'' side of things for sure, and maybe even the ''inexpensive.'' While the entry costs in electric can be higher, I have to say that my maintenance costs are FAR lower.
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old salts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up. Not with me on the sticks!
Andy
If the SPA genuinely wants ''simple and inexpensive'' and then disallows electrics, they just killed the ''simple'' side of things for sure, and maybe even the ''inexpensive.'' While the entry costs in electric can be higher, I have to say that my maintenance costs are FAR lower.
I think the real problem with SPA and electrics is that the old salts don't want to change. They know what they know and they don't want to learn, especially when it might show them up. Not with me on the sticks!
Andy
If there is enough interest, electrics would be fine, BUT, in their own class only and competing against other electrics only. That way we could leave the purists to their IC engines only to enjoy themselves.
Or, allow a class for unlimited models of any size or power source, but keep the model's profile within spec'd ratios of the original model. That would attract another huge group of folks, while still allowing the SPA's purist group to exist.
And, oh yes, return the original SPA class to being limited to 10cc (with a 7% variation permitted) two-strokes only. No four-strokes. The variation would be to permit .65 C.I.D. engines. Or, limit the four-strokes to the same displacement as the two-strokes, but allow supercharged .63 sized engines. (wink)
Andy, I don't see a thing wrong with wanting to compete in a class where one knows what he is doing without having someone come along and then set things all topsy-turvy just to accomodate a new technology in a class where it never existed before (this goes for four-stroke engines too). After all, this is a nostalgia event.
Ed Cregger
11-24-2010, 05:23 PM
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RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
Thank you Scott, I appreciate what you are doing. I've been out of flying this year other than Gary's BPA event back in August. I hope to get back to it soon though. I'm glad to see all of this coming along so well.
Taurus FlyerLOL, thanks, at least someone appreciates the staff assistant!
Taurus FlyerLOL, thanks, at least someone appreciates the staff assistant!
11-24-2010, 05:52 PM
#49
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: RMcL
Thank you Scott, I appreciate what you are doing. I've been out of flying this year other than Gary's BPA event back in August. I hope to get back to it soon though. I'm glad to see all of this coming along so well.
Taurus FlyerLOL, thanks, at least someone appreciates the staff assistant!
Thank you Scott, I appreciate what you are doing. I've been out of flying this year other than Gary's BPA event back in August. I hope to get back to it soon though. I'm glad to see all of this coming along so well.
Taurus FlyerLOL, thanks, at least someone appreciates the staff assistant!
I'll get around to learning to fly model airplanes someday myself...
Any perceptible progress to tell
Cees
11-24-2010, 05:53 PM
#50
RE: Just a little respect for the SPA...
ORIGINAL: NM2K
If there is enough interest, electrics would be fine, BUT, in their own class only and competing against other electrics only. That way we could leave the purists to their IC engines only to enjoy themselves.
Or, allow a class for unlimited models of any size or power source, but keep the model's profile within spec'd ratios of the original model. That would attract another huge group of folks, while still allowing the SPA's purist group to exist.
And, oh yes, return the original SPA class to being limited to 10cc (with a 7% variation permitted) two-strokes only. No four-strokes. The variation would be to permit .65 C.I.D. engines. Or, limit the four-strokes to the same displacement as the two-strokes, but allow supercharged .63 sized engines. (wink)
Andy, I don't see a thing wrong with wanting to compete in a class where one knows what he is doing without having someone come along and then set things all topsy-turvy just to accomodate a new technology in a class where it never existed before (this goes for four-stroke engines too). After all, this is a nostalgia event.
Ed Cregger
If there is enough interest, electrics would be fine, BUT, in their own class only and competing against other electrics only. That way we could leave the purists to their IC engines only to enjoy themselves.
Or, allow a class for unlimited models of any size or power source, but keep the model's profile within spec'd ratios of the original model. That would attract another huge group of folks, while still allowing the SPA's purist group to exist.
And, oh yes, return the original SPA class to being limited to 10cc (with a 7% variation permitted) two-strokes only. No four-strokes. The variation would be to permit .65 C.I.D. engines. Or, limit the four-strokes to the same displacement as the two-strokes, but allow supercharged .63 sized engines. (wink)
Andy, I don't see a thing wrong with wanting to compete in a class where one knows what he is doing without having someone come along and then set things all topsy-turvy just to accomodate a new technology in a class where it never existed before (this goes for four-stroke engines too). After all, this is a nostalgia event.
Ed Cregger
Exceptions - was the 7% variation from 10cc a limitation from the AMA at the time, or from the SPA?
Why are four-strokes are an acceptable exception, allowed for "quieter operation so we don't lose more fields" yet electric is even quieter yet, but not allowed (even though electric aircraft were flying in the 60's and 70's, just not as high performance)?
How about the exceptions for the models? You can build any model you want, up to 19XX. You don't have to build it the original size, you can change the moments, areas, etc. Just so long as you call it the right name and it kinda looks like something else with that name, you're good to go. You can put retracts on your model, but you can't use them even if the original design did.
To me, it looks like somebody is handicapping the rules to some least common denominator which (appearance only) looks to keep a small group of individuals as champions because the rules don't interest anybody else.
I just can't get past the inconsistency. Now, for those who like it, that's cool, and more power to ya! Go out and have a ball, because I can do that w/o having to travel.
Andy