flyingtheoldones

My Feedback: (1)

I was reading the BERusty thread and wanted to comment on someting that KingAltair wrote, but dint want to be off topic.

The SPA has been getting alot of debate as to there rules and conditions for their contest.
The way I have noticed it, SPA wasformed for a group of people who wanted to compete with the planes they wanted to fly.I started reading in this forum when the BPA started to form years ago. The BPA filled a gap between the current F3A style and the olderSPA style. Now people who liked the classicplanes AND the "modern" retracts and pipes can now compete. It just seemed tomake sense that the BPA would eventually emerge. I really dont think the BPA would have had the success it has had if it werenot for thealready founded SPAorganization. The SPAset a path for the BPA and also presented contest for the BPA along side of the SPA for those who wanted those retracts and pipes.
Theinterest is growing. Maybe not like the 3D orJets,but now folks can "float" from SPA to BPA or even to turn-aroundmodern F3A. That option started with the guys who started the SPA.
I guessin the begining trying to change the rules to allow the pipes and retracts just seemed like the thing to do. Looking back to what has evolved, it looks better than I could have imagined. With all 3formed and all the choices... however that does mean more planes tobuild and fly

Just my 2 cents and my way of thanking Duane and the SPA guys for what they have done... but really? 4 strokes on 35 year old planes???



DM

PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

DM.

The CPA (BPA) is growing leaps and bounds we have 180 members on the forum site and about 25 paid members and 40 or so on the CPA mail list.. Gary has done a great job with starting the BPA and we have talked and merged the BPA to the now new CPA. (Classic Pattern Association) There are a large number of SPA pilots crossing over to CPA also and every gets along with out any problems. In 2011 we are looking at possibly 6 contest at this time and always looking for CD's and sites.

Scott

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Just to add another point that usually isn't brought up. SPA started in 1991...I actually was one one that first group, and attended ONE contest in the Atlanta area...just to watch. I joined for one year back then but didn't fly. Back then it was all 2-strokes and planes exactly as they were designed. Shortly after joining, I went through a period where I was not "into" R/C enough, and let my membership lapse, but I never totally forgot about SPA or my interest in vintage pattern. In 2003 I got back into R/C and had to start all over again with my old "Swizzle Stik" trainer, then moving up to my VK Cherokee...all planes I had back from "yesteryear".

Then I got a World Models T-34 trainer ARF, (which was a great pattern trainer), and got interested in flying pattern again....but I only wanted to fly the pattern I was familiar with back in the mid-80s when I flew AMA Novice. This is all talked about in my first article on SPA and VR/CS back in May 2006. The REAL reason I was inspired to write that first article HAD VERY LITTLE TO DO with the planes everyone was flying and EVERYTHING to do with the challenge and fun of flying contests again in front of judges with "simple and inexpensive" vintage planes. The way I was treated by everybody, and the way they made me feel welcome "blew my mind". I couldn't believe just how friendly and helpful everyone was, and I wanted to tell others about BOTH of these fine organizations.

I was like young kid in the way I "picked the brains" of people like Bruce Underwood, Dennis Hunt, and many others I respected to learn as much as I could about the organization, why people flew this or that plane, and what were the popular engines and why. Never once did anyone not help me as I learned the ropes of SPA. Only after a lot of time went by did I start picking up on some of the controversial topics about engines and planform modifications, but by then I was having such a good time and felt so much like an intregal part of the organization that it really WASN'T CRITICAL or all that terribly important to me. There were no electrics back then, but other than that, all I have known (since the 2005 contest season when I joined), is SPA with its current set of rules. The rules had already been changed by then, and the "barn door" was already open, and the "toothpaste" out of the tube.

I can see how outside purists would like SPA to be this way or that way depending on their preferences to make it more the way they feel it should be, but for me these were relatively minor details compared to the comaraderie, sense of "family", and fun that we share at each contest. Sure, maybe the door to planform mods should never have been opened, but it was already open when I joined, and I wasn't going to miss out on everything and stay away just because it wasn't exactly as I felt it should be. The organization has evolved to what it is now because the majority of the members thought it would enhance the fun of flying in SPA contests, (BTW-the 4-strokes were allowed due to "noise considerations" back when some fields were banning 2-strokes).

There are a lot of topics being discussed right now by SPA MEMBERS WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF, (including "electrics" and whether or not to re-admit them, (and if so...how to do it fairly). The SPA BOD is made up of a bunch of good guys who first and formost want each pilot to have a good time and feel welcome when they come out. That's really what SPA is all about and it is the single most important ingredient that we must preserve...if we lose that we lose the primary reason for flying SPA. For that reason, the "rules details" about planes and engines are important, but secondary to most of us who actually participate in SPA, (although we DO have definite opinions, and everyone expresses them).

We FIRSTwant SPA to maintain that sense of the individual being welcome and having a good time; we have to maintain that or none of the rest really matters.

Duane

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

One way to allow electrics without giving them too much or too little advantage in competition would be to deemphasize the flight scores and to emphasize something like how many contests has the contestant attended during the score accumulating year. After all, SPA is about FUN. No one is going to get on the F3A team regardless of how high they score in a year.


Ed Cregger

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

Wasn't the SPA limiting the vintage of the ships in competition to 1975 or earlier? My impression was that the BPA was filling the gap between the mid '70s stuff and the mid '90s when the 60 size ship fell out of competition(apart from then Novice class).

PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

yes the CPA fills the gap with or without the retracts and pipes. It is all pre turn around.

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

You know, I once recommended that the SPA be called the JPL(Jurassic Pattern League)....but that one got rejected[sm=wink_smile.gif].

FLAPSDOWN

I've often been surprised there are separate entities and or categories for the SPA, CPA, and BPA. The important distinction is separation from F3A. I'd like to see them all combined into "Classic Pattern". There could be a "Senior" class, "Balistic" class, and class groups to separate skills. Much like novice, sportsman, advanced and expert.

Today classic pattern is a niche interest that just doesn't seem big enough for the class distinctions. Let's face it, things aren't like they used to be. When classic pattern was peaking in the 70's and early 80's, there wasn't the competition for interest as there is now. ARF's, 3D, electrics, and giant scale didn't exist. Helicopters were a boutique interest and the only thing you could fly indoors was an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of notebook paper folded correctly.

When businesses want to grow but can't afford to acquire, they merge. I've been to 3 classic pattern events and the participation and interest was minimal at best. I'm sure somewhere in some thread someone has suggested combining into one organization would be a good idea. Event participation may increase which could lead to better things. A separate AMA pattern class?

Bill

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

When the issues were in debate for SPA, I suggested a 25 year carryover rule for designs; It got rejected. The one big contention was that newer designs would have a competitive edge over the old stuff. I then mentioned the 'Curare' word and got jumped on again. The pattern designs were pretty consistent to one another until 1975(the cutoff date) when the Curare rolled out which was a fairly significant jump in design and lead to the next generation of ships.

flyingtheoldones

My Feedback: (1)

That kinda is what I was refering to in the first post. A lot of guys wanted the SPA to acknowledge the planes that they were passionate about. I was one of them. I made the wrong comment of saying that all of this, what we are doing, is about the planes of the era. The SPA made it very clear that they are not about the Planes, but about the competitions. I think that was the biggest difference between the SPA and the BPA. The BPA, IMO, dont really care who is going to win at a contest. They just want as many people out there with planes to share and stories to tell.
I sound almost negitive towards the SPA, but I do respect what they did. It was because of the SPA that I got back into Classic Pattern and never finished building my giant Extra 300S. They also helped pave a way for the BPA to follow. Now we have both to choose from. A merger wouldnt do too much more, imo. We would simply have what we have now, only under yet another new name. For myself, I'll fly with the SPA, but not nearly as much as the BPA. Not that I dont like 4 stokes, or that I need to have a pipe and retracts. I'm just not passionate about the comps as I am about the planes themselves.
I can remember this forum when I first found it. I asked if anyone heard of a plane sold by Golden Gate Hobbies... I had to ask because no one was talking about it, or the MK BA, Aurora, Curare, etc... Now I dont even have to say the name of the plane from Golden Gate, you guys know it!
I really dont think the SPAwill merge with theBPA or CPA. I just dontsee thepositives out weighingthe negitives for them.Thats all fine, as long as they're happy doing what they're doing. I dont see a problem.


DM

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

My apologies, I missed yours and dropped down to read further. I remember a bit of contention when SPA was spooling up and the bridge couldn't be crossed, or so it seemed. A part of my reasoning then was that the reintroduction of later vintage 60 size ships might create a market, since the new stuff is so costly. The old stuff, while still old, still flies so well as opposed to an Ugly Stick. Nothing against Sticks but they are so much work to fly after a few runs with a Calypso or an LA-1.

PatternPilot

My Feedback: (58)

I agree at this time or anytime in the future I do not see SPA and CPA merging into one group.. However I do see and have seen a large group of SPA guys either come out to watch and socialize or fly at CPA events.

I have read here (RCU) and another classic forum site that guys are looking for more contest.. We are (CPA) trying to get 2011 calendar together and get some other locations for contest.

It would be great to see something in the Tidewater VA area and maybe Ohio / KY also.

For all you classic guys don't forget to check out the Classic Pattern Association site and join the free mail list at www.classicpatternassociation.com

CPA#2

BECHIP

SPA...BPA...CPA..."playing well together"

My Dad (SPA #213) created an SPA/BPA event last Spring in Chicago. It was well received, well attended and will be held again in at least one location (to be announced) in 2011.

BECHIP
(B.E. "Chip" Dose IV)
Edited by Mom

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Mom...you're a good "editor"

Duane

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Bill;

Since 1991, SPA has been flying "simple and inexpensive" pattern contests. It wasn't just about the competition, but competing and having fun at the same time. It was formed because AMA pattern was evolving into a high-money sport with a whole different style of pattern.

SPA was the "only game in town" for vintage pattern , (other than VR/CS where the emphasis on pattern competition is much less) for most of the past 20 years. BPA has only been around 3-4 years, and CPA is brand new. The reasons these new organizations came along was that SPA wanted to (basically) stick to its original concept of "simple and inexpensive" planes with no tuned pipes and retracts, (ie no extra stuff), and it liked the pre-1976 cut-off for legal planes. The 4-stroke engine was originally allowed because of the move to limit noise, but the 2-stroke is making a recent comeback at most contest sites.

The other organizations came about because they wanted to include planes with retracts and pipes, and fly later vintage models as well as those from the early 70s...which is fine. They are less structured and allow SPA-era planes to compete as well. I've been to the first BPA event and it was great, with a wide range of pilots and models. Anyway, that's the reason for three organizations. Kind of like church denominations, the new groups formed because of their "belief system" regarding vintage pattern. Maybe some day they will all merge into one "Pre-Turnaround" pattern organization...but for now SPA members are basically content to stay with the original concept, (though obviously there have been changes and differences of opinion within SPA itself). I saw somewhere BPA HAS MERGED with CPA to form one organization, (Scott can confirm or deny that).

Duane

flyingtheoldones

My Feedback: (1)

Duane, I have been told by a SPA member quite sometime ago, that classic pattern is about the competitions and not about the planes. I really remember that because that is when I really kept an eye on this thread and watched the BPA form. As I mentioned before, I personally dont see anything wrong with that attitude. We are all here for different reasons. I think most of the BPA guys like the planes, mainly because most of us didn't compete in the late 70s and 80s. We were too young and like myself too broke. So we admired to planes and ads in the magazines. Some SPA members know what is was like to compete. So they went out looking for the newest design to compete, not really to drool over and just stare at. Which I know, mostly all the BPA guys sit and stare at their planes from time to time.

The noise regulation doesnt really make sense since electrics are quiter than both muffled 2 strokes and 4 strokes. I remember reading that they were disqualified because of an unfair advantage they had. Not the complexities, because now they are pretty much plug and play, which is easier than running a TD .049.
The inexpensive part doesnt really go with running the 4 strokes either. There twice as much initially, then maintaining them puts them into a whole different ballpark altogether. I'm not sure but I believe I read somewhere that the SPA rules allow modifications to the OS 91, and their is a particular fellow who is the "go to" guy for that mod. More money I'm sure. Correct me if thats not true, because I'm not sure about that.

Like I said before, I do understand we are all here getting different pleasures out of this part of the hobby. I really like the SPA Though not as much as the BPA because that is the category I fall into the most. But I will fly in the SPA events when I moved to the cont. US (hopefully soon), and it will be with a muffled 2 stroke of the period. I wont score very high, but I dont think that would be because of my plane or set up, I'm sure it will be because I'm just a lousy pilot. but like I said, thats not what I'm looking for peronally out of this hobby.


DM

flyingtheoldones

My Feedback: (1)

duplicate..

dphillips3

I found out about the SPA and got my dad fired up about pattern again. He flew pattern from the 70's all the way to the early 80's and stopped after the "change". I was too young to fly back then but I grew up to the sound of tuned pipes and the sight of retracts. The SPA has been instrumental in providing the glue to hold classic pattern flying together. I would love nothing more than to see a merge of the SPA/CPA. I know that will probably never happen, but for this thing to get stronger the members have to stick together not seperate.

That was me circa 1980.
DP3

dphillips3

This is me now. I finally got my chance.

DP3

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

oooooh is that a Bootlegger that I see?

dphillips3

no bootlegger, It is a compensator with a dirty birdy canopy. Dad always like the streamlined canopy better than Rhett Miller's original.
(And still does)

DP3

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Oohh boy! Just thepic of someone holding one of these classicsnose up at 12 o'clock, the sound of the pipe's sweet spot hitting it at 14K or so, the throttle closingand the purr of an idling 2S .61 engine..... makes you want to get out a get at it! Don't it???? No matter if it's SPA, CPA, or BPA; it's pattern as it was in the day.

hook

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Never say never, but it won't happen in the near future. In general people really enjoy flying SPA, and respect SPA's leadership. If it happens, it will happen over time.

Within SPA right now is the continuing debate about electrics. It is just ONE of the issues being discussed. We are currrently having an election for Vice President, with the candidates putting out their positions on the issues and answering questions. Two of the candidates are in favor of trying to return more to the original design of SPA, (and part of that is the exclusion of electrics). Positions aside, it will be very hard if not impossible to undo the changes since 1991, (think of all the strife within the organization that will stir up, and as I said, if we lose the "fun" and "spirit" of SPA, we lose th most important ingredient.

The other candidate represents others within SPA who want to concentrate on a broader interpretation of the rules, and inclusion (in some fair way), of electrics, as it was up until this year. We'll see which candidate wins.

Duane

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

I have to coment on the Electrics. They work well, very well. Their presence, however, in either of the vintage pattern associations, I believe takes away from the original premise of running such events.