rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Duane,

Thanks for the tips. Shall see what I can do. (Although what you see is what's left *after* I smoothed the ridges.)

I do wish I knew exactly how I got all the low spots. I had checked the height of the ribs with a straight-edge to make sure they were uniform. Perhaps the weights I used on the one side to hold the large sheeting in place. Or this may have been the panel that collapsed.

Whatever the reason, it's a trifle frustrating.

Any suggestions on what you do to avoid high-and-low spots on the next wing would be most appreciated.

Speaking of which, I need to ping Jeff (who has been busy with his day job) to see if he has enough parts left over from the last run to make up a wing kit. I also had suggested that I'd be happy to foot the bill if he wanted to use me as a test case with a cutter in his area who wants Jeff's business. I *will* get at least one set of wings correct.

May not get as much done on the Simla this weekend as I had hoped. I need to finish the tax stuff to get to my accountant Monday. Bother! (I don't like my Uncle Sam that much.)

Cheers,
Richard

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

I've come to the conclusion the best method for making the sheeting come out nice is the method described earlier...pre-gluing the individual sheets together, (be careful NOT to use a glue that will cause ridges like CA). I liked the SIG-MENT for wing skins. Pre-sand the dried sheets until it looks like ONE sheet...this produces a very nice, smooth skin.

Once the skins are dry and pre-shaped to approximate size at the L.E and T.E., you mist the skin with Windex or water, carefully bend it to rough shape, and hold down with tape or weights until the balsa dries dries...you don't glue the skin in place at this point...the purpose is to "pre-shape" the skin. It will basically hold its shape after it dries, and will make it much easier to glue in place later.

When you're ready to glue the sheet in place I'd use Titebond, (with CA on the edges), or maybe thick CA if you are quick...lay the panel down at the trailing edge, and tape down...then tape down over the leading edge, (which has more curvature). Use the blue painter's tape and pull straight forward to keep in place. You may use some regular CA while holding down the L.E. in that area, then move across the L.E. using CA in spots that come up.

When cured, I dribble thick CA to catch any high spots while holding the wing with the L.E. pointed up. This will mostly be needed toward the L.E. where the curve is greatest.

Flip the wing over in the cradle, and sheet the bottom the same way except I'd probably use slower glue here because of making allowances for the L.G. block cut-outs. Again dribble medium CA down one rib at a time while holding the wing with the L.E. up, and holding any high spots against the ribs.

The L.E. can either be added before or after sheeting. I did it before and DID have a problem with the sheeting over the L.E. being too thin and "feathering" in places. It might be best to add the L.E. later. Wherever there will be an exposed glue joint with the sheeting, (such as at the top and bottom of the L.E.), use the SIG-MENT or another very sandable glue. SIG-MENT is not as strong as some other glues, but it is suitable for wing sheeting.

This method should prevent the problems caused by adding sheets one at a time, but even the "individual sheet" method shouldn't be too bad if you are careful when adding each sheet. Test and see in advance how each sheet will fit before gluing it. Leave no excess glue on the seems. Sanding might be a little more difficult this way to make it look uniform, but you have more time to work with a smaller area if you use this second method.

Duane

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Duane,

Thank you for such a detailed explanation.

That's the method I used for the top sheeting of each wing panel. Only on the bottom surfaces did I use the individual plank method.

(I think the pictures I posted of the low spots are of the wing panel that collapsed when I was weighting down the skin. Despite my best efforts, it looks like I did not get everything flat again.)

I am confused when you say you sheet one surface, turn the wing over and dribble CA, then sheet that surface and dribble CA again. I'm obviously missing something important here, because I don't see how you can dribble CA along the rib when it's now covered on both sides.

BTW, after pre-shaping the skin, it wasn't real good about holding anything more than a faint impression of the curved shape. The lack of humidity here may or may not have something to do with that. In other words, perhaps the sheet dries too quickly.

Cheers,
Richard

pimmnz

Yes, as Duane has pointed out, never sand the sheeting on the wing, always prior to application. Sagging between ribs will always occur, unless you are using a foam core. Sanding once assembled will always sand more off each rib position, leading to the 'starved horse' syndrome. Finally, it is always easier to attach the skin to a false leading edge with your favourite fast glue, allow to set, use a slow (PVA or similar) at each rib position, then tape to the trailing edge spar with masking tape or similar, and use fast setting stuff on the spar. That way the natural resistance of the skinning ensures that the skin contacts the ribs at all places. Allow to dry with the skin on the bottom, so that the slow glue can form a small fillet at the rib/skin junction. Pre bending the skin is not required, unless you are wrapping the leading edge (Taurus) or you have completely the wrong wood, then it should be replaced. If the rear section of the wing contour is more or less flat, then I have been known to use 1/4 grain wood along the trailing edge, just for a bit more stiffness where the section is a bit thin. Leading and trailing edge capping can be fitted and shaped after the wing is complete, you just need to sand the false edges flat and square before gluing the shaped edges. This stuff is all basic modelling knowledge, and I find it surprising that it is being forgotten...and this model requires considerable basic knowledge to successfully complete, it is no beginners model, Ed was at the height of his design/build powers when this thing appeared, and he knew exactly how it was to be done, without compromise. So far as this offending wing is concerned, then I would forget filling, unless you like heavy, brittle wings, and just carefully hand sand to a consistent finish, then film it. If you can get another wing kit to glass/paint, then you can try again, but with this model, 'lightness is rightness'.
Evan, WB #12.

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

You can dribble the CA via access from the front if the false LE/LE is not yet attached. As you build more stuff, try different methods to see what works best for you.

PIMMNZ said he was surprised "basic building knowledge is being forgotten...". Seeing all the ARFs out there I'm not surprised. It seems many modelers just want to fly...some can't ever repair models and have to throw them out. To me, modeling is both building and flying...that way you don't panic if there is some minor damage.

Building is an art...and building skills are usually TAUGHT or PASSED ON rather than developed on your own. I do things the way my father taught me, or a good friend showed me 30 years ago when I was a young adult...that's when I learned whatever I know. The more I come in close enough contact with other modelers who build, (recently), the more I pick up little pointers here and there...techniques and ways of thinking about building that are new to me, (kind of like "why didn't I think of that). I've changed quite a bit over the past 6-7 years since getting involved with SPA and this forum. I'm learning concepts, (like the emphasis on building light and straight), that I never emphasized on my own. I thought just building the thing was enough. BTW...my father had his limits when teaching me...his planes were all very heavy, and one plane was so tail heavy, he actually poured molten lead into the nose to make a ball the size of an egg. You should have been there to see THAT plane take off...it bounced down the runway more than flew, (BTW...that was HIS first plane).

I'm glad you're building the Simla, and that you're asking questions. You're already a better builder than you were when you started, and each plane after this will get better. My very first plane was a Don Lowe Phoenix 1...boy was that plane "rough" by my current standards...I was only 14 at the time, and I'm amazed I managed to finish it at all. I'll see if I can find a picture of it to post.

Keep up the good work, and don't worry about asking questions...better to ask than do it over.

Duane

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Here is a picture of my Phoenix 1 built around 1965. Find the flaws Still I always liked the look of the plane and the F-86 paint scheme. I never was accomplished enough to actually FLY the plane, and it eventually was given to someone when I moved south to Asheville in 1986. The plane had only 1/16" sheeting per the plans, and I sanded it so thin it eventually became brittle and split during years of storage. I understand that when it flew, it was "faster than hell" and came to a spectacular end in a cloud of splinters...but it will always look like this to me.

Notice the ball of lead I talked about earlier holding the nose down. That big ball of lead was in the nose of a small plane called a Krackerjack.

Duane

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Okay, here's my current plan of attack. I'll prime and sand until only patches of primer remain. I'll check each patch and, if it's a deep depression (there's a couple), I'll fill it. If the primer feels like it's smooth (it starts very rough), I'll assume it's now at the level of the sheeting and leave it alone. If it still feels a bit rough, I'll keep sanding. (My idea of fun really does not include using body filler.)

After that, it's glassing time. Not film. I need the practice. And if this wing turns out to be heavy and brittle, I'll build a light wing with all I've learned. (I already have a new complete kit.) This whole model is a learning experience for me.

Now, let me address the comments about the lack of basic modeling knowledge, with emphasis on me not having that knowledge.

I started building basic control-line back when I was in grade school and have the scars to prove it (nasty little Fox .35). Then, following the demise of my last plane early in high school, I waited a while before getting back into the hobby. About 40 years to be more precise.

I started with a second- (or third or fourth) hand trainer and moved into a series of ARFs, most of which had "non-standard" landings and from which parts were salvaged. The only model I built was a Tiger 60 that, amazingly enough, is still in its original number of pieces.

Recently, I realized that I was tired of the same old ARFs and uninteresting kits, and concluded that I would have to build from plans or, preferably, plans plus cut parts. My first foray into that was a Ki-61 "Tony" from Don Smith plans. No instructions. After pooching my third (or fourth) version of the horizontal stab, I put it away with the realization that I had bitten off WAY more than I could chew.

A couple years passed before I saw the Simla article in Model Aviation and decided it would be a better place to start. But I guarantee that, had it not been for this thread, I'd still be puzzling over the instructions. This model probably really is not a perfect "first timer's build." To make matters worse, the only builders my club had have died. (Taking with them the basic modeling knowledge.) Everyone else is ARFs and composite jets.

So, to end a lengthy tale, I make a LOT of mistakes and ask a LOT of questions. Next time around, though, I'll be able to answer someone else's questions. I've already shown my build and explained where I pooched things to two of my club members who also are going to build the Simla.

BTW, I wouldn't have any trouble building the Tony's stab now.

Cheers,
Richard

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Taxes sucked up much of my weekend, but the mess goes off to my accountant tomorrow and I'll be able to spend more time on the Simla.

Done priming and sanding the wing panels. Very little primer or filler left after the sanding. After I shape the tips and fit the ailerons, I'll glass the wings.

Than back to finish the fuse.

Cheers,
Richard

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

For my part, I hope that nothing I said caused any offense regarding building...that would be the LAST thing I would want to do; building is an art that seems to be slowly dying out, and we need all the builders we can get.

My own building skills are somewhat limited compared to others in VR/CS and SPA who are true "Master Builders" to quote Cees. Limited as those skill are, I am picking up pointers every time I build, so it is always a "work in progress". I just learned learned the fundamental essential of the importance of BUILDING LIGHT the last couple years...my first two King Altairs were virtual BRICKS, (note the photos...they looked nice but weighed 10 lbs each...don't build anything intended to PERFORM out of Tower balsa).....and the weight added NOTHING to the plane.

Anyway, the point is...keep building and keep asking...that's why this is a "construction thread", and the more people we have contributing building technique ideas, the better we all are.

Duane

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Duane,

You have never given offense. I just became a trifle irked about the "basic modelling knowledge" comments in another message with the inference that I (and everyone else), should be born with that knowledge.

As a side comment, I would like to offer a small diatribe against American RC magazines that feature ARF after ARF after ... and precious little, if any real building information. (RC Modeler started offering some good stuff right before it closed shop. Model Airplane News has not picked up the slack.) And don't get me started on the "the age of electrics is here" assertion.

I have to subscribe to a couple British rags (Aviation Modeller International and Flying Scale Models), to get any useful information. Damn! Those Brits can build! 29-foot span Lancaster bombers from self-drawn plans, etc.

For my part, the build progresses and should speed up a bit as the weather offers the occasional clear day so I can sand/paint outside, and the tax prep is on its way to my accountant.

Right now, I'm slightly puzzled by the fact that the LE of my ailerons is not cut square. In other words, if the LE is placed against a flat surface, the centerline through the width will not be perpendicular to the flat surface. I'm assuming it's just the way it was cut with the expectation that the LE will be beveled, and not because the aileron was expected to be hinged at the top.

That *thin* tip block extension along the width of the aileron has caused some problems, and I'll probably have to do some judicious laminating with 1/64 balsa and reshape that area, at least on the first tip.

And speaking of the ailerons, I'm assuming they, too, should be glassed.

I picked up a couple Paasche airbrushes, hoses, pressure gauge, and various accessories at the RC auction back in February (all for $30). Now I'm looking for a smallish 2-gallon compressor (used would be good). There's also a Paasche brush that sprays a 2-inch wide line that I may buy to apply the overall primer and base coat. Although perhaps a larger unit, such as is sold by Harbor Freight, might offer quicker and more uniform coverage.

Basically, this model is costing a bloody fortune. On the plus side, I'll have knowledge, equipment and supplies available for the next model.

Cheers,
Richard

pimmnz

Sorry, didn't mean to irk anyone, just couldn't think that you would use this sort of model as a 'learners' kit, given that it is quite big, not in any way a beginners trainer type, and is of 'traditional' construction. Big investment, if you like. I guess that I was lucky in that my learning was done way back in the '60's as an impecunious schoolboy, who had to make a sheet of 1/16 go a long way, had access to 'Aeromodeller' and thus learnt from the best of what was available, and had to draw and make anything and everything I wanted. I did a couple of stick and tissue kits for rubber when a 12" model was big, and since then all my models have either been my own, or from plans. I have started on my first two 'proper' kits just recently...a Proctor Nieuport kit from the 70's and, yes, a Simla, well, two actually, one for me and one for an ex Californian who was in LARKS and remembers Fred Dunn introducing his Astro Hog. He is real interesting to talk to. I just thought that anyone attempting this model would have already had 'the knowledge', you see. Hence my comment about how much has been forgotten, not really realising that it hadn't yet been practised. My bad. Apologies if I caused offence.
Evan, WB #12.

billberry189

My Feedback: (1)

Richard,

I am 64 years old and have been building models from kits and plans for over 50 years and for what it's worth, I learn something new with every build. I figure when I reach the point where i can't learn something new I will have checked out and I don't plan on doing that for a long, long, long time. So just keep plugging away and you will gain the skills and techniques that will one day turn you into a "master builder".

Bill

thom25

Richard,
Don't worry about the non-square leading edge on the ailerons. I used my razor plane and a long sanding bar to shape a 45 degree bevel to the top and bottom of the front edge of the ailerons. These two 45's make 90 degree angle that is easily checked with a square. Then you can hinge them as you like. I used Sig Easy hinges and the Great Planes Slot Machine.
I should finish my Simla later this week and will post photos then.
Thom

thom25

Richard,
Don't worry about the non-square leading edge on the ailerons. I used my razor plane and a long sanding bar to shape a 45 degree bevel to the top and bottom of the front edge of the ailerons. These two 45's make 90 degree angle that is easily checked with a square. Then you can hinge them as you like. I used Sig Easy hinges and the Great Planes Slot Machine.
I should finish my Simla later this week and will post photos then.
Thom

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

WHAT???....DID YOU SAY "FINISH" as in DONE!!???[X(] You've been building away in silence I guess, and we just heard from you FOR THE FIRST TIME recently. The way I view it, whoever posts a picture of the next finished Simla, your plane becomes #4, (officially, after the three original prototypes). (Note: Actually I'm not sure Jeff actually FISISHED his Simla, but we'll cut him some slack since he is the project engineer).

Bill, looks like you now have #5. Whoever is reading this thread, (and I assume ALL Simla builders are)[8D], claim your number as each of your planes are completed.

ABOUT THE FLY-IN: I'm beginning to wonder if we should postpose the first "Simla Fly-In" until maybe next year when we can have more completed planes. Let me know what you think. I should be thinking about making the arrangements if we are going to have an event this year...I'd want to have 10-20 Simlas there, so the extra time may help. Evan, we expect you to come to the USA with your planes as well. We'll take up a collection. New Zealand isn't really all that far away...right?

Duane

BTW...For the ailerons, I remember taking two-inch stock and cutting down to 1-3/4" width before beveling. Did Jeff provide 1-3/4" stock in the kits?

pimmnz

An invite to the States? Intruiging thought. Shipping the model(s) would be the biggie, I am owed a cheapish flight as it is...And you fellas might not allow my R/C gear on 40 mHz, though I could possibly borrow a 72 module and rx...Hmm, I will think on...
Evan.

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Bill,

You're back!

Question: I got some of those inexpensive masks to keep the balsa and primer and filler dust out of my lungs, but the way the mask fits, my glasses fog up almost immediately. Is there any type of mask that will avoid this problem (and not break what little remains of my bank account)?

And another question: Did you glue in the horizontal stab with elevator before painting? To me, with the hidden control horn, it looks like I'll have to glue in the elevator hinges, hook up the control horn end of the control rod, and glue on the stab before everything is closed up. This then means that the stab and elevator are already joined instead of being painted and then joined. Even if I make a bottom hatch at the very tail, it doesn't look like I would have enough room to attach the controls to the elevator horn.

Cheers,
Richard

pimmnz

The elevator hinging should not be a problem, even with a Taurus there is enough room to attach and detach a kwick link to the elevator horn. The tailplane should be permanently attached to the fuselage, then you can fit the elevator joiner and attach it to the pushrod. Hinge and fit the elevators before covering/finishing but do not glue anything. Sand everything fair and ensure that it all works then remove the elevators. Mask off the joiner then cover/paint /finish all the parts. You can even fit and pin the hinges to either the stab or the elevators and hide the pins. When the model is completed and finish painted, then you can reattach the finished elevators (and ailerons, it works for them too) and glue and pin the hinges. I prefer to dry fit the hinges, then dribble a bit of cyano down the pinning hole before fitting the fixing pin, this allows the glue to wick out on the hinge blade without getting in the actual hinge itself. A bit of epoxy in the hole where the joiner fits ensures that it all stays solid, and then just a dab of paint or a bit of film over the hinge pins and the job is done. You may have to recess the hinges and joiner into the leading edge of the elevator halves and stab rear spar to ensure that you get the minimum hinge line gap, but that can all be done before covering and painting. I am assuming that you are using proper blade type hinges, of course.
Evan, WB #12.

billberry189

My Feedback: (1)

Richard,

What Evan suggests is pretty much the way I like doing my hinging, except that I only recess the hinge into the trailing edge of whatever fixed surface I am hinging. That way I am less likely to mangel the leading edge of the controlled surface. I also cut all my hinge slots before I bevel any of the edges. It just makes iteasierto control the hinge slots. I'll try to post some photos tomorrow.

Bill

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

A few points: With the hidden elevator linkage, you should make a small hatch under the linkage at the rear of the fuselage...Ed actually left this space OPEN on most of his planes, (though the kit showed a hatch).

Before you bevel the control surfaces 45 degrees to a point, draw a centerline on the L.E. of the control surfaces so that you'll be sure NOT to exceed it...it tells you where to stop to get a nice, uniform line. I used a sanding wheel attached to my Dremel scroll saw to do the sanding on each of the control surfaces. There is a bit of a technique to it, but if I can do it, everyone can do as well or better.

As the others have said, the stab is (almost) NEVER glued after the fact..at least not on the planes I've built. This gives you a chance to test alignment of the stab to the wings etc etc...an important part of building the plane square and straight. We probably should discuss these measurements that provide the proper angle of the stab to the fuselage, and to make sure the stab is "square". I'd prefer somebody better than me to do that.

Duane

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for all the tips. I apologize for not being clear that I've already created and attached the horn and have hinged (but not glued) the elevator to the stab. I use Robart hinges because I'm used to them.

Here are several images that show my setup and the limited space in which I have to work. I don't think a hatch all the way back will provide enough room to be able to attach the control rod linkage.

Please ignore the filler and primer. I checked and they only add 3.6 pounds to the stab. The surfaces already are glassed. Obviously, a bit more cleanup is necessary.

So it sounds like the best plan for the stab is to permanently glue it in, without gluing the elevator. Everything gets painted, and then the control linkage is attached to the elevator and the elevator glued in.

I'm going to see if I can, indeed, attach the linkage with the stab glued in place.

If I can't, I'll permanently fix the elevator to the stab, then fit the control rod linkage to the control horn, glue in the stab, and try to keep paint out of the hinges.

Unless someone has a better plan.

Which someone usually does.

;-)

Cheers,
Richard

rg1911

My Feedback: (1)

Evan,

Better yet, get a 2.4Ghz module for your transmitter and a matching receiver. I have an older Futaba 8Uas that uses channel modules. A year or so ago I got a Hitec module and it's worked perfectly ever since. Love not worrying about the frequency pin.

Or, if your transmitter won't take a 2.4Ghz module, just buy a 2.4Ghz receiver and borrow someone's matching transmitter. Binding the receiver is a matter of only a minute.

Cheers,
Richard

P.S.: I still think the first Simla Fly-In should be held in Simla, Colorado.

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

YOU GET YOURSELF AND YOUR PLANE HERE AND WE'LL FIGURE THE REST OUT. What kind of transmitter do you have? I have a Spektrum 7...write all your settings down and I'll loan you my transmitter and a receiver, and you'll be in business, or we could probably find you a module...or what the heck...BUY you a module!!

I can imagine why you'd like Simla Colorado That would be convenient for you.

billberry189

My Feedback: (1)

Duane,

More time would be helpful to many of us I would guess.

Bill

thom25

Duane,
What color should the cockpit be? Red or black? I have a Futaba 9C and spare receiver that Evan could use. I would like to offer my clubs field ( Midwest Sundowners ) for the Simla fly-in. We are in north west Indiana about 25 miles south east of the Kickapoo Meadows that the Simla first flew at. (GPS= 41.50556 N, 87.19083 W www.midwestsundowners.com)
Thom