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  1. #26

    RE: Side Pocket Article


    Rick, I never saw the 60 size β€œHip Pocket”, but knowing how well his 40 Side Pocket flew was the reason for looking into a set of plans of his 60 size bird.

    Seeing some pic’s of the plane or plans/drawings would be the first step, not ever seeing the plane firsthand deters me from just scaling up the design.

    Like you said,

    β€œthere's far too much speculaton and change to the original design. It just might make a good flyer a dog. While I like the idea of a larger Side Pocket, at this stage of the game with so many designs out there to build, I'd stick to something that's proven. If I had more frre time, I'd think about what you're saying. TO me, the Side Pocket looks somewhat like a Compensator, so if I wanted a larger Side Pocket, I'd probably build a Compensator and paint it to look like a Side Pocket.”

    ORIGINAL: Free Bird

    Paul,
    Nice Quatro! Didn't you get that recently on RCG?
    FB
    Yes recently from a friend on RCG, When we met he brought another plane with him for my consideration a NIB 60 size MK Blue Angel that I just couldn’t turn down for 250.
    Paul Pappas, AMA 42520
    www.NECPO.org

  2. #27
    Roguedog's Avatar
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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: Free Bird

    Thanks for posting the PDFs! When you say you liked the plane so much, did you build one?
    FB,

    Back in 2008 when I decided to return to the hobby I was of course plane poor. I started collecting RCM mags and ran across the Side Pocket which to me is very similar to Jim Kimbros Deception, one of my favorites. At that time my plan was to scratch build a 60 sized Side Pocket but that got put on the back burner as I started to collectClassic Pattern planes.

    Here's my latest score an $80 dollar unstarted Great Planes/Joe Bridi Deception kit with fiber glassed canopy. I found it on craigslist of all places.

    I actually bought out the guy and got Carl Goldberg Super Chipmonk kit, a 40 sized Great Planes J-3 Cup framed up, an already built 40 sized Lucky Stick ready to fly,an already built Carl Goldberg Protege already built ready to fly, an already built plane he called an Eagel 20, two radios, one for the Lucky Stick and one for the Protege, an OSMax 61FX engine, a NIB Fox 45bb with nosecone 10 rolls of monokote a gallon on 10% nitro. All his build tools. Two brand new 12volt 7amp hour hobby batteries. Tote with starter.Scored all for $450.

    Too top it all off I also wonour clubs raffle at the AMA convention for a Parkzone Spitfire PNP and picked up another unstarted Super Chipmonk for $80, had a Very good weekend.

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    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  3. #28
    doxilia's Avatar
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Bryan,

    Thanks for posting good quality versions of the plans. The scaling you came up with for the 60 makes more sense - I was looking for a long fuse moment but the overall size is just too big. Compared to the Deception, the SP has a fairly short fuse.

    Speaking of Deceptions, I'd be interested in reading that FM article; I didn't know it existed. If possible.

    TIA, David

    PS Nice score!

  4. #29

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Bryan,

    Maybe you could let us now the year and month of the FM issue which covered the deception. I was thinking about order some back issues from them and I could add that one to the list if it is available.

    Thanks,

    Teo

  5. #30
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    September 1983?

    Just zooming in to the photo - date is hard to make out.

    David

  6. #31
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Very close David - September 1980.

    Ray
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  7. #32
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    If ever there was a RC publishing god - you'd be it Ray!

    Much obliged!

    It seems fitting that FM would have published in 1980, after all the original Deception article was published in 1978 if memory serves (or was it '77...)

    Now I have something to read over my late dinner...

    David

  8. #33

    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: RFJ

    Very close David - September 1980.

    Ray
    Ray, Thanks for posting the article.
    Paul Pappas, AMA 42520
    www.NECPO.org

  9. #34

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    FB,

    Back in 2008 when I decided to return to the hobby I was of course plane poor. I started collecting RCM mags and ran across the Side Pocket which to me is very similar to Jim Kimbros Deception, one of my favorites. At that time my plan was to scratch build a 60 sized Side Pocket but that got put on the back burner as I started to collect Classic Pattern planes.

    Here's my latest score an $80 dollar unstarted Great Planes/Joe Bridi Deception kit with fiber glassed canopy. I found it on craigslist of all places.

    I actually bought out the guy and got Carl Goldberg Super Chipmonk kit, a 40 sized Great Planes J-3 Cup framed up, an already built 40 sized Lucky Stick ready to fly, an already built Carl Goldberg Protege already built ready to fly, an already built plane he called an Eagel 20, two radios, one for the Lucky Stick and one for the Protege, an OS Max 61FX engine, a NIB Fox 45bb with nosecone 10 rolls of monokote a gallon on 10% nitro. All his build tools. Two brand new 12volt 7amp hour hobby batteries. Tote with starter. Scored all for $450.

    Too top it all off I also won our clubs raffle at the AMA convention for a Parkzone Spitfire PNP and picked up another unstarted Super Chipmonk for $80, had a Very good weekend.
    Rogue,

    I hope you were wearing a mask when you picked up that stuff! You stole it!! Nice haul though!

    FB

  10. #35

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Hey David,
    I'm pretty sure the Hip Pocket was powered with a piped OS 61FSR.
    As for copying the Japanese kits - yeah, you are quite right about all the custom shaped pieces and that is one of the reasons they are such a pleasure to build! I am in the process of kitting the MK Skystar 90 from scratch. I cut foam wings and stabs as well as the rear top deck, but the rest (fuselage, fin, rudder) is all replicated like the original kit. It seemed like an easy project, the foam parts were done relatively quickly, but there are a lot of those nifty, specialty wood parts to be created. Many of them I re-engineered into several sub parts which are glued together and shaped to the final configuration. This has worked well for me, but it is time consuming. Of course, I am building 3 kits at once. I did this same thing years ago with the MK Curare with excellent results, but there were far fewer specialty parts in that kit.
    Lastly, I have found that 'shrinking' plans (from 60 to 40 size for example) seems to work better (preserving the original flight characteristics) than enlarging at least if you are just going to the local copy shop.
    -Will

  11. #36
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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: doxilia
    Thanks for posting good quality versions of the plans. The scaling you came up with for the 60 makes more sense - I was looking for a long fuse moment but the overall size is just too big. Compared to the Deception, the SP has a fairly short fuse.
    Sorry for the late post, been working long hours the last week.

    David I upscale the side pocket about 12% from the original 40 sized to get it around 62 to 64 inches. Worked out ok. As far as having a long tail moment here's that 60 sized SP with a 3 inch stretch on the tail moment and a 1.5 inch stretch at the nose. Is this what you were looking to do? The jpg is 150dpi the pdf was converted from a 400 dpi tif file.

    Here's the cover of that Flying Models mag. Really cool that the guy I got the Deception from included it in the deal.
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    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  12. #37
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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    FB,
    I hope you were wearing a mask when you picked up that stuff! You stole it!! Nice haul though!
    Freebird,
    i originally went to get the Deception and to see what he wanted for the Super Chipmonk. When I inquired about the Chipmonk he just blurted out he'd take 450 for all his stuff. I immediately responded with an offer of $400 then said $450 would be fine. He mentioned he worked on the Protege for a year and it was also the last item I loaded in my car. He looked like he was upset as I loaded it in so I asked him if he was ok. He said he was fine, but I think he was really proud of the work he did on the Protege. I sure know that feeling. I did the same thing he did back in 1985 when I sold all my stuff. Won't do that again. I did feel a little like the hamburgeler, but I think that was because i was hungry.

    Bryan

    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  13. #38

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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: Roguedog

    i originally went to get the Deception and to see what he wanted for the Super Chipmonk.

    Bryan
    Bryan,

    Are you planning to come to the Classic get-together that Robert is hosting in May? It would be great to see you and your collection there.

    It was a tom of fun last year.

    Doug


  14. #39
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Will, Bryan, Rick,

    thanks for the comments, suggestions and plans. Bryan, regarding the 60 size, that is basically what I was thinking of too. Stretching things out from the rear of F4 and from the front of F3 - makes sense. Thing is, like Rick suggested, messing around with the enlargement is a bit of a shot in the dark without building and testing. I have no reason to doubt that a 58" fuse and a 64" wing make for a good combination but this design is short coupled and the designer, Miller, has strong feelings about that - much like Kimbro has about his design - no messing around with the rudder length for example...

    Having said that, Kimbro took plenty of license to fool around with the Deception design and I've seen airfoiled fins in variations like the Double Vision so that's what I plan to do when I get around to putting one together. But I digress.

    Rick's re-opening of the Side Pocket subject and Bryan's better quality plans, got me inspired and I finally got some traction on the CAD work. For the time being I'm not messing with it (much...) and just getting the i's dotted and the t's crossed as it were. The fuse plan is fine and straight forward and so far I didn't find any inconsistencies with it although I haven't done a proper cross check of the formers vs the fuse. Where I am running into issues is with the wing ribs not tracking with the planform. Of course, I chose to keep to the planform and adjust the ribs to suit but I'm still working on that part of things.

    I like the layout of these plans and the details provided - it makes it an easier job to decompose the plan for laser cutting layout. As soon as I'm done with the wing plan, I'll continue with the layout which so far is just started with some elements of the fuse.

    I made some minor modifications to the fuse plan/construction to suit ease of building, lightness and my preferences. These are the changes that come to mind:
    [*] Added the cowl/nose section to the fuse top drawing.[*] Added two pieces of anti-warp cross-grain balsa to the rudder.[*] Removed some material from the tank top 1/4" block to better accommodate the fuel tank and provide a recess for some foam padding. The material isn't needed where I removed it.[*] Lightened the fuel tank plate.[*] Lightened the 1/32" fuse side doublers.[*] Changed the F3 former from 1/4" ply to 1/8" ply with a 1/8" F3B ply doubler at the bottom where the wing dowels are retained.[*] the fuel tank plate is supported buy the top of the F3B doubler and remains flush with the bottom or the tank opening in F3.[*] Placed the tank plate lower in draft in order to accommodate a 12 oz Hayes slim tank. This reduced the amount of space for a potential front retract unit but in the event the builder wants to use retracts, they can adjust the draft of the plate and the size of the tank used.[*] Added a 1/4" balsa F1B nose ring and fuse side front former replacing the small pieced of 1/4" tristock called for on the plans. This small section of cross grain balsa makes for a stronger front end coupled with the 1/16" ply nose ring.[*] In view of the current lack of Wing Mfg. Sport canopies, I designed a canopy "backbone" consisting of a 1/16" ply vertical keel which is fully covered with two pieces of 3/32" balsa one on either side. The total 1/4" thickness of this "spine" blends into the 1/4" balsa fuse top dorsal fin section. The spine also keys into a 1/16" temporary ply canopy base with three centerline alignment tabs. White, blue or pink foam is then added to either side and carved/sanded to shape to reproduce the canopy shape. Once the canopy has been shaped, the base can be removed and the canopy glassed for painting. The assembly should be pretty light but I'm considering just using a 1/32" keel as the TE of the canopy can be widened to the 1/4" required with some foam on either side rather than sanding it entirely away.[*] I may also add a couple of small pieces of cross grain 1/16" balsa on the inside of the fuse sides in the cowl area above the 1/2" tristock for stiffness.

    Finally, I'm thinking about drawing up a little section of ply to allow a Sullivan 12 oz RST fuel tank to be front mounted and placed behind the F3 former in the wing saddle area. This locates the tank closer to the CG but might require a fuel pump or a pumped engine. I am thinking of a YS45 for my own model but it might be overkill and might substitute an OS 46 FX. Part of the motivation for moving the tank rearward is due to the comments made Miller in the article regarding the model turning out nose heavy in all cases - not surprising with a shorter fuse and heavy/larger engines that we might be inclined to use.

    If the fuel tank is mounted in the saddle area with a pumped engine, the Rx would go behind it on the servo tray while the battery might be located on the fuel tank plate, or, if necessary, behind the servos aft of F4.

    I might modify F4 (or have both options cut) to provide support for a couple of Nyrod type pushrods for the elevator and rudder.

    Here's the progress on the plans with some minor re-organization of parts. Wing plan in progress. For those interested, I hope to have this finished and cut sooner than later, famous last words..., hopefully not!

    'nough said,

    David.

    P.S. Upload of images and the list function are broken at the moment, for a change...

  15. #40
    Roguedog's Avatar
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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: 80sPattern
    [Bryan,

    Are you planning to come to the Classic get-together that Robert is hosting in May

    Doug

    Doug thanks for asking.

    I do want to go, but I also want to practice the Novice Pattern Manuervers before I make a descision as I'm still trimming out my Kaos 40. Had a setback on my it but I think I found the problem. It was not able to get peak RPM after the last adjustment of down thrust. Turns out a small piece of plastic or something was blocking the passage at the high speedneedle. Must have got in there while I had the engine apart toport the sleeve.

    I guess the saying is appropriate - Don't fix it if it aint broke.

    Workhas kept me from having thetime to continue the trimming process. Hopefully tomorrow I will get to the field.

    Bryan
    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  16. #41

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    RE: Side Pocket Article


    ORIGINAL: Roguedog

    Doug thanks for asking.

    I do want to go, but I also want to practice the Novice Pattern Manuervers before I make a descision as I'm still trimming out my Kaos 40. Had a setback on my it but I think I found the problem.

    Bryan
    It is just a get-together. No Practice needed.

    Please plan on attending and bringing stuff to share.

    Good luck with your trimming. Do you fly at Prado?

    Doug


  17. #42
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Doug,

    I'm in. If I get enough practice in before then, maybe I fly as well.

    Bryan
    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  18. #43

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    I think he was really proud of the work he did on the Protege. I sure know that feeling. I did the same thing he did back in 1985 when I sold all my stuff. Won't do that again. I did feel a little like the hamburgeler, but I think that was because i was hungry.

    Bryan
    I think you were starving!!

    Will, Bryan, Rick,

    thanks for the comments, suggestions and plans. Bryan, regarding the 60 size, that is basically what I was thinking of too. Stretching things out from the rear of F4 and from the front of F3 - makes sense. Thing is, like Rick suggested, messing around with the enlargement is a bit of a shot in the dark without building and testing. I have no reason to doubt that a 58" fuse and a 64" wing make for a good combination but this design is short coupled and the designer, Miller, has strong feelings about that - much like Kimbro has about his design - no messing around with the rudder length for example...

    Having said that, Kimbro took plenty of license to fool around with the Deception design and I've seen airfoiled fins in variations like the Double Vision so that's what I plan to do when I get around to putting one together. But I digress.

    Rick's re-opening of the Side Pocket subject and Bryan's better quality plans, got me inspired and I finally got some traction on the CAD work. For the time being I'm not messing with it (much...) and just getting the i's dotted and the t's crossed as it were. The fuse plan is fine and straight forward and so far I didn't find any inconsistencies with it although I haven't done a proper cross check of the formers vs the fuse. Where I am running into issues is with the wing ribs not tracking with the planform. Of course, I chose to keep to the planform and adjust the ribs to suit but I'm still working on that part of things.

    I like the layout of these plans and the details provided - it makes it an easier job to decompose the plan for laser cutting layout. As soon as I'm done with the wing plan, I'll continue with the layout which so far is just started with some elements of the fuse.

    I made some minor modifications to the fuse plan/construction to suit ease of building, lightness and my preferences. These are the changes that come to mind:


    Added the cowl/nose section to the fuse top drawing.

    Added two pieces of anti-warp cross-grain balsa to the rudder.

    Removed some material from the tank top 1/4" block to better accommodate the fuel tank and provide a recess for some foam padding. The material isn't needed where I removed it.

    Lightened the fuel tank plate.

    Lightened the 1/32" fuse side doublers.

    Changed the F3 former from 1/4" ply to 1/8" ply with a 1/8" F3B ply doubler at the bottom where the wing dowels are retained.

    the fuel tank plate is supported buy the top of the F3B doubler and remains flush with the bottom or the tank opening in F3.

    Placed the tank plate lower in draft in order to accommodate a 12 oz Hayes slim tank. This reduced the amount of space for a potential front retract unit but in the event the builder wants to use retracts, they can adjust the draft of the plate and the size of the tank used.

    Added a 1/4" balsa F1B nose ring and fuse side front former replacing the small pieced of 1/4" tristock called for on the plans. This small section of cross grain balsa makes for a stronger front end coupled with the 1/16" ply nose ring.

    In view of the current lack of Wing Mfg. Sport canopies, I designed a canopy "backbone" consisting of a 1/16" ply vertical keel which is fully covered with two pieces of 3/32" balsa one on either side. The total 1/4" thickness of this "spine" blends into the 1/4" balsa fuse top dorsal fin section. The spine also keys into a 1/16" temporary ply canopy base with three centerline alignment tabs. White, blue or pink foam is then added to either side and carved/sanded to shape to reproduce the canopy shape. Once the canopy has been shaped, the base can be removed and the canopy glassed for painting. The assembly should be pretty light but I'm considering just using a 1/32" keel as the TE of the canopy can be widened to the 1/4" required with some foam on either side rather than sanding it entirely away.

    I may also add a couple of small pieces of cross grain 1/16" balsa on the inside of the fuse sides in the canopy area above the 1/2" tristock for stiffness.

    Finally, I'm thinking about drawing up a little section of ply to allow a Sullivan 12 oz RST fuel tank to be front mounted and placed behind the F3 former in the wing saddle area. This locates the tank closer to the CG but might require a fuel pump or a pumped engine. I am thinking of a YS45 for my own model but it might be overkill and might substitute an OS 46 FX. Part of the motivation for moving the tank rearward is due to the comments made Miller in the article regarding the model turning out nose heavy in all cases - not surprising with a shorter fuse and heavy/larger engines that we might be inclined to use.

    If the fuel tank is mounted in the saddle area with a pumped engine, the Rx would go behind it on the servo tray while the battery might be located on the fuel tank plate, or, if necessary, behind the servos aft of F4.

    I might modify F4 (or have both options cut) to provide support for a couple of Nyrod type pushrods for the elevator and rudder.

    Here's the progress on the plans with some minor re-organization of parts. Wing plan in progress. For those interested, I hope to have this finished and cut sooner than later, famous last words..., hopefully not!

    'nough said,

    David.
    David, with all that work, you should just start with a clean sheet of paper! Lots of good thoughts though..............

    FB

    PS - David, we are having a NECPO fly-in on 9/8/12, hope that you can join us. Would like to meet you!!

  19. #44
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Rick,

    Thanks for the vote of encouragement. The fuse plan went quite quickly due to the nice original and simple design. The stab is a little canted in the scan skewing it's symmetry but with the simple diamond rib design and span specs, it was a simple matter to get it right.

    I've almost finished the wing plan but want to make some minor mods to the ribs so the wing tapers properly and the chords are right on the money.

    Miller talks about retracts but I haven't drawn any ribs to provide for this - maybe I should. Also the F3 former would need the cutout shown on the plan to accommodate the nose wheel together with a wing chin mod - Phoenix style. A smaller 8-10 oz tank would simplify things in that department.

    In any event, I haven't made any planform or moment changes to the design, only structural changes for ease of building or lightness. I'm thinking that it could be a 5 lb model dry with a lighter muffled engine.

    What are you guys thinking of in terms of power if you build one; 40's or 45's?

    David

    Off to birthday brunch!

    The RCU image upload function seems to be back so here is the progress on the plans so far. I should get some more work done on the wing this evening. The canopy concept with the "Brontosaurus" keel was inspired by Ralph's UFO canopy build. While the base plate is removed once the canopy foam is formed, the bottom tabs in the keel remain protruding from the bottom and key in to the 1/4" balsa fuse top for correct positioning and alignment.
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  20. #45
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    I was surprised to accidentally find this thread while searching for RCM Side Pocket so many years after the plans were first published. It is a long time favourite (see profile) and one of only two R/C planes I have ever built two of; the other was a .25 size Hammer. The RCM Side Pocket is a smooth flying plane (build it straight though) and very durable. In the winters, I flew it on home-made "snow floats". The floats were made from a couple of pieces of pink foam glued together with hardwood blocks to fit the standard gear into. Fuselage was re-enforced at mains during construction. The snow floats were about 60% the length of a water float and flat bottomed with no step...perfect for getting over all the foot prints on the field that quickly snagged airplanes on skis.
    AB

  21. #46
    doxilia's Avatar
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Good stories on the SP!

    I was hoping to find a picture or two in your profile but had no luck. Please post any pictures you may have!

    I expect to be getting back to the wing plan details very soon.

    David

  22. #47

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    David, nice work (as always) on the SP plans. How's the wing coming along?

    On another note, any thoughts on the PMs I sent you a while ago?

  23. #48
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Rick,

    replying now...

    David

  24. #49

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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    David,

    Look at what Parkflyerplastics.com has in their canopy selection. They call it the Mach 1, but it looks like a dead ringer for the old Wing Mfg canopy. This one measures 19 1/2 inches long, what length is needed on the SP? Sorry for the small image, it's very difficult to get a larger image from their site.

    FB
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  25. #50
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    RE: Side Pocket Article

    Ahh... seems like I can post today - nice feature!

    Written yesterday but posted today.

    Rick,

    err... that'd be the one! At least it sure looks like it.

    In the original plan the dorsal keel part of the fin extends underneath the canopy while the canopy is probably slotted in the rear to allow the keel to pass. This likely results in a better transition.

    In my plan, I drew the canopy and the keel to mate so that the keel is longer and the canopy correspondingly shorter. My canopy is 17.5" but the keel is longer. Either approach results in the same side planform.

    If this is indeed the Wing Mfg. Canopy, that would provide the option for builders who want to either finish with a clear canopy or don't want to produce one from the ply/foam in the kit (as with the DB40).

    Good find!

    David

    P.S. I was able to pull a larger photo off the site. That IS the Wing Mfg so called "Sport" canopy.
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