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Bootlegger?

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Old 06-04-2012, 06:41 AM
  #1
tgwhitley
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Default Bootlegger?

I would ike to find out more information on the Bootlegger. Do you use anhedral in stab or flat have noticed photos with both configurations? I know that frequent flyer has short kit but how does the plane fly compared to the Compensator which I believe it borrows many parts from? Have YS 60 FR for a rear exhaust design and looking for plane to build for engine.

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Tim


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Old 06-04-2012, 08:36 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Steve Helms(the designer) told me once to build it with a flat stab, it flies better. It is affected less by crosswinds with the flat stab vs. the anhedral one. He also the more horsepower you can get, the better off you will be. Sounds like you have the HP problem solved, so build it flat, and haul *****.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Jeff

Thanks for the response will build this design in future did you fly a bootlegger? Can you share more information?

Tim
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Old 06-04-2012, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Hi Tim,
I've flown both and to tell you the truth they fly very much alike !! The Boot that I flew had a flat stab,
Powered by a Webra Speed 61 FIRE.
The difference that that I noticed was the bootleger was a good bit faster than my Compensator.
Both are great flying classic airplanes and I don't think you could go wrong with ether design..

Dave..
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Old 06-04-2012, 06:07 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

I did the original Field and Bench article for Model Airplane News on the Bootlegger (4/79) with an O.P.S. .60 Rear exhaust. The original kit called for an anhedral stab and that is the way I built mine. Steve Helms told me the bent stab was more of a marketing decision than an aerodynamic one. That was the hayday of the Curare and Tipo and everybody was bending the stab down. My second bootlegger was purchased from a friend and also had a bent stab, so I can't really give a personal comparison. I did see several with straight stabs including ones that belonged to Steve Helms.

A really solid bird. The original Southern R/C kits had a polyester glass fuse that wasn't the greatest. Someone later produced an epoxy fuse, but I can't remember who. With the enclosed pipe, they tended to turn out heavy if you weren't careful, and the heat could be a problem. Flew like it was on rails. You sort of "drove" it around the sky. Lots of good memories of those planes. Wouldn't mind having a good kit today! Never had a Compensator, although they were highly thought of in their day as well.
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:21 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Both are good airplanes. I had a Compensator and then a Bootlegger. My Bootlegger had a flat stab and was a great flyer. Both ships had ST power-side exhaust on the Compensator and rear exhaust on the Bootlegger. I never had a problem with the polyester resin fuse. Maybe just lucky. The Boot was extremely fast airplane and very smooth.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

The Bootlegger was basically a glass-fused version of the compensator designed for rear exhaust. You can't go wrong either way. Both are great classic designs. If I recall correctly, I think when Southern R/C was producing both they used the same foam cores for the wings.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

And those Compensator/Bootlegger foam core airfoils were in turn very similar to the ones Kimbro used on his Deception series of designs...

David
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:47 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

If prop is a 11/10 or something like would speed be more constant in you guys opinion?

Tim
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Tim,

speed is more constant with props that are capable of generating more thrust and also do a better job at breaking in down lines. High pitch, low diameter equates to speed. High diameter, lower pitch equates to thrust (reason for which they are used in 3D). If you want a slower more constant moving plane, you might want to consider a 12" prop but that depends on what engine you plan to use. The 12" props are better suited on the newer classic long strokes although there is nothing preventing you from trying one on the short strokes. As an example, the YS short strokes were quite flexible in terms of prop use. The Italian classics (e.g., Rossi, OPS) were better off with the 11" props and ran better at higher RPM's.

On a Boot you could try running a 12x6 on a short stroke (e.g., OS VF) or a 12x8 on long stroke (e.g., OS RF). The long strokes can even handle 12x10's quite well turning sub 11K.

David
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:09 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

I flew a Bootlegger in the early 80's. Flat horizontal stabilizer. Absolutely loved that airplane! I'm pretty sure the wing was a thinner airfoil than the Compensator, and the Compensator was thinner than the Deception. There is an obvious difference in wing planforms between the Compensator and the Bootlegger. The Compensator was a double taper planform, whereas the Bootlegger only swept the leading edge.

I flew an OS.61 rear exhaust and rhom-air retracts. The plane had an amazing flight envelope. It would blister across the sky, yet settle right down for slow speed flight. Spin entries were a piece of cake as the Bootlegger transitioned very smoothly from level flight to a relatively high alpha without wanting to balloon a lot. At the end of practice flights, I loved making a low high speed pass downwind, and then follow up with a low, inverted, very slow pass coming back upwind. I was always amazed that an airplane could be perfectly at home at such opposite ends of the speed envelope.

For whatever reasons, the Bootlegger just never gained the following of it's contemporary brethren. It wasn't on the scene long before the dreaded "turn around" started dictating major changes in pattern aircraft.

A great model!
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cmgtech1

I flew a Bootlegger in the early 80's. Flat horizontal stabilizer. Absolutely loved that airplane! I'm pretty sure the wing was a thinner airfoil than the Compensator, and the Compensator was thinner than the Deception. There is an obvious difference in wing planforms between the Compensator and the Bootlegger. The Compensator was a double taper planform, whereas the Bootlegger only swept the leading edge.

I flew an OS.61 rear exhaust and rhom-air retracts. The plane had an amazing flight envelope. It would blister across the sky, yet settle right down for slow speed flight. Spin entries were a piece of cake as the Bootlegger transitioned very smoothly from level flight to a relatively high alpha without wanting to balloon a lot. At the end of practice flights, I loved making a low high speed pass downwind, and then follow up with a low, inverted, very slow pass coming back upwind. I was always amazed that an airplane could be perfectly at home at such opposite ends of the speed envelope.

For whatever reasons, the Bootlegger just never gained the following of it's contemporary brethren. It wasn't on the scene long before the dreaded "turn around" started dictating major changes in pattern aircraft.

A great model!
For a second there I was flying my tuned pipe Rossi (side exhaust), with B&D retracts, at the ole Radio Control Club of Chicago (RC3) field down at Kickapoo Woods in Harvey, IL back in the day! Nice description cmg, sure do need to get one and get it going again. Yes, a "great model" indeed!
Mark
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:43 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

SOME BOOTS

First 2 pics are my first Bootlegger from the M.A.N. article (with Norm Page Mach 1 style paint scheme). Third photo is Steve Helms on the left and I believe Earl Haury on the right at a contest in Ft. Worth sometime in the early 1980's. Note the straight stab on Steve's plane. The fourth photo is a Bootlegger that I think belonged to Texas flyer Tom Street.





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Old 06-06-2012, 07:11 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

The response to this thread has been great and the information presented most useful. Does anyone have the orginal color scheme in drawing or photo?


Thanks

Tim
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:22 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Tim, Look on the Trention RC web site and you will find some pictures of Steve's Airplane with his Color Scheme !!
Some of the pictures we taken in Jackson Miss. and some were in Orlando Fla. Not sure if they were the same plane but both were painted alike !! (The third picture on the right RCDENT posted is his orignal )
Are you going to fly with us in Prattville June 16th & 17th ??


Dave Phillips
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

The third picture in my post above is one of Steve's most common schemes.  I don't know how many Bootleggers he personally had.  The first one I saw when the kit was initially launched used the same design as shown above, but with bright yellow as the base color, dark blue where the red is in my photo, and red as the minor striping color.  That was a very pretty combo!  All of Steve's Bootleggers that I saw or saw photos of seemed to use that same basic trim outline/design.  His planes always had beautiful painted finishes.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:04 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCDENT

The third picture in my post above is one of Steve's most common schemes. I don't know how many Bootleggers he personally had. The first one I saw when the kit was initially launched used the same design as shown above, but with bright yellow as the base color, dark blue where the red is in my photo, and red as the minor striping color. That was a very pretty combo! All of Steve's Bootleggers that I saw or saw photos of seemed to use that same basic trim outline/design. His planes always had beautiful painted finishes.
The picture on the So. RC box is not in color but it's the same design as the one you posted and the ones on Trention RC !!
I saw the yellow one as well,but most were white,red and black....
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:18 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

The yellow one is on the trenton web !!
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:49 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Rcdent thanks for the information and the pictures I have your article in pdf and refer to it often. Dave got first flight in today on Tower Kaos had not flown in over 12 years. Could be awhile before partcipating in contest it was beyond rust more like barnacles have been attached for long time on the flying ability part. I will attempt to be at Prattville on Sunday for morning flights see planes and visit etc. Great number of Bootleggers in your photo's on Trenton must have been one of your personal favorites along with Compensator. I am looking for kit and or plans now may have found something locally the old climb in attic search basement routine?

Tim


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Old 06-07-2012, 06:55 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Don at RCAiir@gmail.com has a short kit of the Bootlegger - fiberglass fuse, cores, templates. Shoot him an email for his list.

Jeff
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:39 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

Jeff

Thanks I have emailed Don but I like balsa fuse better than glass. Don's work looks to be great and I may very well go with his glass fuse cores shrt kit setup. Anyone else have other suggestions or have kit in your attic or under bed?

Tim


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Old 06-07-2012, 09:44 PM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?


Hey Tim, just to let you know the Bootlegger was only offered as a glass and foam kit.
A few years back I was looking for a Bootlegger Kit, not able to find one at the time,I finally reached out to Ron Chidgey to find out if he had plans for a wood version.

He contacted Steve Helms for me and the final outcome was that there were no wood plans.
Short Story, I finally did find a fuse and the glass kit plans which I gave to my good friend Don at www.rcaiir.com to save this Great Plane.
Here is a pic of Steve in 2011 with a Bootlegger kit given to him by Tony F at the Nats
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:18 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?



Hey Tim,

Iwasdoing a search on web for Bootlegger specs, wingspan and length, and ran across a whole bunch of Bootlegger and Compensator picsat the Trenton Rc flyers website.

Here's the link. http://trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/davidphillips.htm

I've been there 50times easily looking at the Image Base of Pattern Planes but never scolled down to the bottom of the page until tonight.

A guy named David Phillips sent in a CD of pics he scanned of several late 70's pattern meets he attended. There's alot of bootleggers and compensators as well as Curare's, Tipo's P8's Tigar tails etc. One thing thatstruct me was the cool paint jobs they had done on some of the planes. A must see if you missed it. as I did.

Anyone have the Bootlegger specs?

Bryan

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Old 06-08-2012, 12:29 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?


Hey Bryan,
Here are the specs on the Bootlegger and some quick pics of the plan.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:14 AM
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Default RE: Bootlegger?

With a short stroke for power is there room for tank to be placed on CG? I think converting to tail dragger (blasphemy I know) will simplify setup and save one retract servo and nose gear weight. What is the better setup on this design that needs to be used in build. I am told the flat stab is better any other suggestions or ideas?

Tim


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