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  1. #1

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    Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    My dad flew pattern when I was growing in the 70's early 80's and I have a couple fuses sitting around that I have no idea what they are. I dont have the wings for either nor the rudder or elevators for the one in primer. They are both built up from balsa. Just curious as to what I have and if there is any value to vintage pattern ships. Thanks Jason


















































  2. #2
    rabbid fly's Avatar
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Arrow and Deception? Too bad you do not have the wings. Phil

  3. #3
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    ORIGINAL: rabbid fly

    Arrow and Deception? Too bad you do not have the wings. Phil

    You can get foam cores for these (Arrow and Deception) from Don at Eureka and build a new set of wings each. Plans are easily attained.

    Both aircraft are worthy of putting elbow grease into. You will find they are amazing and prize winning airplanes!

    Nice find! I am jealous- especially over the Arrow.

    Brian
    N Central Regional Director
    Classic Pattern Association

  4. #4

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Not sure, but at first I too thought that was an arrow, but the fuse looks too "square" albeit with well rounded corners. I think it might be something like a Bride escape or xlt. I know the xlt originally had an anhedral stab, I know of some who built it with a straight stab. Hard to tell though. Good luck.

  5. #5
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    you can get both sets of wings from "Don" at RcAiir.com
    Epoxy Glass Fuselages, Short Kits & Fiberglass parts. Proudly made in the U.S.A. rcaiir.com
    email: rcaiir@gmail.com

  6. #6

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    The first model is indeed an Arrow, with a modified fin outline. The other is definitely Bridi inspired. As suggested either foam or there are still plans around for built up wings, probably for both but RCM&E has wooden Arrow wing plans and MAN has foam plans, if you need them.
    Evan.

  7. #7
    stuntflyr's Avatar
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: frequent flyer

    you can get both sets of wings from "Don" at RcAiir.com

    I use Don for all of my foam wing needs. +1 on Don's stuff.
    Chris...


  8. #8

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Wow its nice to see that there is an active group of vintage pattern ship enthusiasts. My dad loved pattern competition when I was young. I love flying but have never gotten up the nerve for anything above a sport plane. I will probably never do anything with these at least not in the near future. Are they worth anything? If there not of much value I will keep them hanging it the shop just in case I ever get up the nerve. If any of you guys feel like making me an offer shoot me a pm or tell me what to ask and I will list them in the for sale section. I still have dads baby an original compensator that hasn't flown since 84. He won a lot of competitions in the New Orleans area in the early 80's with it including a 3rd at the nats that year. I might pull it off the wall and take a few snaps and post. Thanks for all the replies -Jason

  9. #9

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: frequent flyer

    you can get both sets of wings from ''Don'' at RcAiir.com

    Hey Frequent Flyer, I agree with you. "Don" is a great recommendation for replacement wings. I've always received very fast and courteous service from him......................................
    David

  10. #10

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Finally got back to cleaning again and found the wings for both planes. The Arrow is built up and the Deception is foam core. The Arrow has some issues but nothing that cant be repaired. There are a few broke ribs and some of the leading edge is missing and most of the sheeting is in need of replacing. The Deception is damaged where one of the wing bolts goes through. Both of these must have happened during storage over the years. I am thinking of selling them both. From what it looks like they go from $300.00 to $500.00 in the buy and sell. Would that be a fair price range?












































  11. #11
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID



    That price your quoting is for NIB kits or finished planes with minor hanger rash not for the ones you are showing IMO. Maybe $100 each and I would say that's a stretch, but you never know there may be someone with money burning a hole in his pocket.

    It's too bad that you never tried flying a pattern plane. IMO they flyway better than any sport plane. I was a worried I wouldn't be able to handle my Utter Chaos when I got back intothe hobby. Reasons were I was afraid it would be hard to handle, too fast, hard to land,but afterlearning about flight trimming anddoing theflighttests I was amazed at how well it flys and lands. Sweet! As a matter of fact the Axilon foamy that wa the first plane I flew on my return was more of a handfull them the Chaos

    I'd fix em up and fly the crap out of them! But that's me.

    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  12. #12

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: imazephed

    From what it looks like they go from $300.00 to $500.00 in the buy and sell. Would that be a fair price range?
    The problem is the condition that both planes are in. They need a lot of work to get back in the air. That price range is for a model that is vintage NIB, turn key in great condition or almost turn key in great condition.

    This is one of those things that would be a labor of love for a particular plane. I have redone planes in that condition (some worse) due to sentimental value. The sentimental value far exceeded the face value by a long shot.

    When selling something of this nature.... one has to look from the outside (as a buyer) in and ask 2 questions.... Would I pay "x amount (asking price)" for a plane in this condition for myself? What would I pay for a plane in this condition for myself? That number you come up with is what most people would pay if you answered those 2 questions honestly.


  13. #13

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Roguedog I am afraid of the speed more than anything. I fly in a small area and would have to go to a field to air a pattern ship out. I have a few that are ready to go that I wouldnt part with, these two are extras that dad was planing to restore but never got around to. I do have a few NOS that I am thinking of listing. They have been sitting in the box since the late 70's. In all honesty both planes are in very good condition except for the wing on the Arrow, but even that wouldnt be to bad if your into building. If all I could hope for is $100 I will find out myself when I repair them and put them back on the wall.

  14. #14
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: imazephed

    Roguedog I am afraid of the speed more than anything.
    If you're worried about the speed don't run it a full throttle. My Chaos/Kaos flys very well just putting around. Just because it's a Classic Pattern plane doesn't mean it has to fly at full throttle all the time on the other hand a .60 size plane would need some room. I fly my foamys at a small park and the Chaos at a regular field.

    If you ever get one in the air and well trimmed, I have a feeling you're going to be stoked at flying a plane that goes where you point it and stays there til u tell it to go somewhere else. Back 25 years ago I was just happy getting a plane in the air regardless of any bad habits it had and I continued flying it like that. This time around and IMOthat kind of flying is a chore.It pays off to fight trim your plane.

    A well flight trimmed plane pattern plane or otherwise is a pleasure to fly. You have to experience it for yourself. It's hard to share the difference.

    Good luck. I hope you decide to make it a labor of love and repair them to flight worthyness, learn about flight trimming and trim it, and enjoy flying a well trimmed plane. I don't think you will be disappointed. Well,as f as I concerned, if it was me, I wouldn't be. Disappointed that is.

    Bryan
    Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

  15. #15
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    True about the speed, RogueDog.

    My brother flew my Kaos after I was having a hard time keeping up with it. I was running it wide open and he showed me a beautiful performance of low speed aerobatics right in front of our faces at Prado, and then flew a landing pattern half the runway length and landed in 100 feet at our feet.

    I didn't fly the same as he showed me after that, but I did realize that I didn't need to fly nearly as fast as I was and was reminded as to how slowly I could fly it if necessary. Landing became very fun, as the wings on these older Pattern ships hang on to very low speeds.

    Jason, I hope you are able to keep these ships and restore them, they'd be great flyers and you would have a little bit of your Dad with you always.

    Chris

  16. #16
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Jason,

    The more I look at that Arrow, the more it strikes me as a 40 size version. What's the size of the model? Does it have a glass deck that goes all the way to the front silver paint?

    The shape of the deck is a little off compared to an MK kit. It might be a clone kit.

    Mind you, it has an airfoiled stab and the 40 didn't have this feature. Maybe it's a 60 after all.

    David

  17. #17
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    David,
    By the looks of the bolt hole spacing it looks pretty big to me. Maybe it was built from plans?
    (No one in my neighborhood could afford an MK kit back in the 70's and they were hard to find. Airline pilots and doctors had them as I recall. And we lived in a pretty affluent area. I think Tommy Tiger (TWA L-1011 Captain) and Richard Verano had them in SoCal, maybe Dave Wilson (pros). I mostly remember Tiporares and UFO's. I think the proliferation of them is overstated today in regard to the general flying group back then, pros only maybe. Just my thoughts, I could be out my butt.)
    Chris...

  18. #18

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    David I finally got around to measuring the Arrow, the fuse is 50" and the wing is 59 1/2". As far as I can remember dad built the Arrow from a kit, the deception he picked up years later already built. The only glass on the Arrow is the pipe cover and where the wing halves are joined other than that there is no glass. It has to be a 60, I just dont see a 40 being enough motor.

    What are you guys going with for retracts? I assume there are better retracts now than in the 70's?

  19. #19

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Bump

  20. #20
    stuntflyr's Avatar
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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: imazephed

    David I finally got around to measuring the Arrow, the fuse is 50" and the wing is 59 1/2". As far as I can remember dad built the Arrow from a kit, the deception he picked up years later already built. The only glass on the Arrow is the pipe cover and where the wing halves are joined other than that there is no glass. It has to be a 60, I just dont see a 40 being enough motor.

    What are you guys going with for retracts? I assume there are better retracts now than in the 70's?

    Hi Jason,
    Mechanicals are cheap and effective. Great Planes main gear are 20 bucks, Robart steerable nose gear is 23 bucks and a servo is 35 or 40 tops. Add piano wire for inkage and you are @ 85 bucks.
    I'm trying some pnuematics right now, results to be reported later. Right now, exasperation.
    From what I have seen my friends go through with the expensive Eflite electrics and Robart electric nosewheels, not good for glow powered Classic Pattern ships, their failure rate is pretty high.
    Chris...


  21. #21

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID

    Jason,
    The Arrow is a .40 sized MK kit. Originally built by Norm Whittle and powered by a ST X-45 with a pipe. MK retracts. I bought it from Norm and your Dad bought it from me. The Deception was built by me and your Dad painted it for me. I put a brand new Proline SS radio in it. Unfortunately, it came with KPS 15 III servos that were a problem. It seems like the servo pot did not make good contact with the wiper causing it to buzz and you would lose contact in the air which happened to me and I crashed the Deception. Proline acknowledged the servo problem but did nothing about it and they shortly went out of business. This is when they were in Arizona. The Deception had Rhom Air retracts but I can't remember what engine I used. I believe that it was a Rossi as your Dad and I loved those Dago motors. I hope this helps and I still miss your Dad!

  22. #22

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    RE: Vintage Pattern Ships ID


    ORIGINAL: somiss1

    I hope this helps and I still miss your Dad!
    Mr. Frank, so glad you saw this post. I cant thank you enough for being there for dad when he was ill. It made him so happy to pal around with you to the hobby shops and go flying again. Life goes by way to fast. Most all my memories of the Pattern planes are vague since I was so young.

    So the wing bolt damage on the Deception is from your accident? The fuse looks perfect either you or dad did a bang up job on repairing it. I could not tell it had ever been damaged. Do you still fly Pattern? Want your old plane back? I could not think of a better person to have it.





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