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El Gringo

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Old 12-20-2012, 10:28 AM
  #26
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Default RE: El Gringo

[:@] jeeeze guys I hate to start a firestorm but even full scale designers learn from others. I see no problem with that because it is a sign of respect for the other guy. A plane is a plane: wings, tail, airfoil etc. But many of a planes' appearances are simply cosmetic. A good looking plane with sleek proportional lines usually is a good flier. I love P-51's the El gringo is a pattern plane thaat looks a lot like that so I built it. Here's a flash: It does not fly as well as my SPA Phantom designed at about the same time though. I love to build and I love to fly what I build. This is a great hobby. I get a kick out the many different opinons of my fellow R/C ers. We are a group of very diverse and interesting backgrounds but not quiet "wall flowers" . Ha!!
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:40 PM
  #27
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eness76-RCU and Skip ,

Well said and my thought also . I was going to bring up the Astro hog similarity also . I really don't give a Rat's A_ _ what the Taurus flier thinks
,knows ,or assumes . Like Skip said ,it's all about fun and Comradery between us flying old pattern planes . Oh Skip , since it doesn't fly as well as
a later design you might consider looking over all the details of the El Toro and make sure you back date your plane so it will fly better ....

Apparently those El Toros can't be Beat because they are The West Coast' best contest fliers ! Oh well , maybe us out east can out fly those Prune pickers ! :-)
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:37 PM
  #28
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Proparc ,
Skips plane looks the Same as the late version ,with the Mustang type tail placements .Don't know why you think it has cleaner lines
when in fact it doesn't look like the original RCM version . This has to mean that Eddie at Lazor Werks is Not cutting the airplane the
same as the RCM plans or maybe Skip changed to the late design Fuselage moments .
I should have said, that I like the Yellow plane in the picture whatever it is LOL.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:38 AM
  #29
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Careful..... us old guys need prunes LOL!!!
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:32 AM
  #30
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Just thought I'd add some eye candy to the thread.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:42 PM
  #31
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCDENT

Great job Skip! Brings back a lot of memories for me too. Always thought it was one of the coolest looking pattern planes out there. Looked like a B model P-51 without the belly scoop. Built a couple of them back in the day. Still remember carving out that top block! Ted was one of the first pattern guys to use retracts. Was always a thrill to watch Ted White fly it. Anyone know what ever happened to Ted? Thanks for sharing the photo with us.
Dewey

Ted is still around and still lives in Bedford, TX. My understanding is that he flies very little, if any, these days, due to eye problems. A real shame. Ted and I used to fly together a lot. One of the finest demo and airshow pilots ever, but was a little hampered in pattern competition by his fierce independent streak and a desire to do his own thing his own way...
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:10 AM
  #32
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Default RE: El Gringo

Gents,

Maybe interesting to look at this post of Mike Denest he wrote some time ago.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=3430902

El Toro of Marty Moad also shown by Mike Denest as the precursor of El Gringo, so I am not the only one and observe the history of the USA of quite a distant.

The whole tread started by Rainedave;
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_34...tm.htm#3415884


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Old 02-19-2013, 03:31 AM
  #33
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the "Truth" about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!
Sehlers (Steve),

Give no mind to Taurass Flyer, he enjoys polluting every thread that contains any bit of information he deems unsuitable. It's much like the (his) "RC World according to Cees". As many have done, simply block him because a case of Summers Eve istoo difficulttoapply over the Internet.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:40 PM
  #34
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Default RE: El Gringo

Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the ''Truth'' about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!
And Steve, sehlers,
What was the result? I would like to hear so I can store the information in my database.

BTW, short note:
Same thing happened with the Taurus history. People did claim one of them was directly involved with development of the earliest example of the Top Flite/MAN Taurus in cooperation with Ed Kazmirski, untill later much older detailed commercial plans made by the draftsman of Ed Kamirski himself showed up.
Never any serious response anymore, the person was visiting his family and would be asked to response later, only some weak arguments about pieces of brown paper send to Rhodesia were remaining.

So what they claimed there already would have been an exact identic Taurus built by one of them in Rhodesia when Ed would arrive there in April 1962?? A back-up Taurus exact identical for when Ed could not finish his own??? Build with use of these sktetches on brown paper??

Interesting that we read local modelers were very exited when Ed did open his crate the first time after arriving and people did see Ed's Taurus the first time, even there already was a Taurus on exact same location in that house in Rhodesia if we might believe the people with that claim.
Strange, pieces of brown paper, when commercial plans already were available, nearly exact the same as used by Top Flite.

As you make a claim, you have to be shure about the history because we check the details, also now.

So, realy, I like to see this "Truth" but, of course not some kind of weak story. You saw I also did show you the pattern scheme of that early period!


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Old 02-19-2013, 06:21 PM
  #35
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Default RE: El Gringo

Skip, any flight updates? Any additional pics? Would love to hear how the trimming is coming, how she knife edges, uplines/downlines, things like that. Give us a little about the flight characteristics.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:51 PM
  #36
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Default RE: El Gringo


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hook57

Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the "Truth" about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!
Sehlers (Steve),

Give no mind to Taurass Flyer, he enjoys polluting every thread that contains any bit of information he deems unsuitable. It's much like the (his) "RC World according to Cees". As many have done, simply block him because a case of Summers Eve istoo difficulttoapply over the Internet.
hook
+1

Frank

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Old 03-27-2013, 09:12 AM
  #37
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Default RE: El Gringo

While scanning the MA digital archives, I came across this great shot of Ted White's EL Gringos from the 79 Lincoln Nats. We've seen the P51 and Messerschmitt versions, here's a British version for good measure.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:17 PM
  #38
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Nice.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:27 AM
  #39
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Default RE: El Gringo

Quote:
ORIGINAL: countilaw


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hook57

Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the ''Truth'' about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!
Sehlers (Steve),

Give no mind to Taurass Flyer, he enjoys polluting every thread that contains any bit of information he deems unsuitable. It's much like the (his) ''RC World according to Cees''. As many have done, simply block him because a case of Summers Eve is too difficult to apply over the Internet.
hook
+1

Frank


Frank,

This was the link I showed in post 32:


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike Denest


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kdheath

Another one I have in my stash of to-do-someday plans is Ted White's El Gringo. TEd was one of those Texas balls-out flyers and great fun to watch. There is also a 40 size El Gringito.

http://www.rcmmagazine.com/e/env/000...m=plans:PL-436
Hi KD,
That one is a later updated version. The design originally goes back to around 1961 or so (El Toro TF). I have a copy of American Modeler with a small plan of the original design as a tailgragger. I scanned the drawings then imported it into Autocad then traced the outlines. I'm almost finished with the plans but need to do some wing rib lofting as yet. Here's a peek at what I have done.
I am not the only modeler that sees the developments of several low wing models on the time path and in the past knowledge of course was widely spread under the pattern flyers.

When you know the Orion, you know the El Toro, El Gringo and the El Gringito.

And of course all designs are influenced by earlier models!
What's wrong to write that? Read the whole thread,

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_34...tm.htm#3430902

Or didn't knew the designer of the El Gringo the El Toro?
Hard to believe when you read al the articles of the past, even people did live at another coast. That's my opinion I show in this thread, no more no less.

As an example see my "Mustang". the Orion with inverted engine and retracts!



Cees
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:37 AM
  #40
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Default RE: El Gringo

Quote:
ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the ''Truth'' about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!

Gents, read, Ted White,


I would like to be able to say I designed the “El Gringo” from scratch with no help, and that it was al mathematecally and scientifically engineered. However, needles to say, that is not true. It is a combination of many airplanes that I have flown or have seen flown. There are three airplanes, in particular, that I considered to have both the lines, stability and maneuverability I wanted. One of them was Jack Butler’s “Moody”. Another was Martin Moad’s “El Toro” and the third was Eddy Morgans take off of the “Moody”. Having flown the “El Toro” and Eddy Morgans “Moody”, they were found to be very fast and extremely smouth in maneuvers. However wanting an airplane that I could call my own and incorporating some pet ideas of my own resulted in the design and construction of the “El Gringo”

TED WHITE


Subject is closed for me, proved is I was right.
For Ted White the El Toro was one of the planes as an example for his design the El Gringo, he even did fly the El Toro himself before!.
Of course I never used "stole" but did want to show he used the El Toro as (one of) the example(s)!


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Old 03-28-2013, 06:08 AM
  #41
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Default RE: El Gringo

Ok, Cees. Let's not create a situation where a minor comment gets escalated to a war. Keep it simple and dial down the rhetoric or I will begin to delete your posts.

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Old 03-28-2013, 02:50 PM
  #42
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The RCM article:

http://pulling-gz.blogspot.com/2012/...series-el.html
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