GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

Yup, my fault entirely...

I had stock piled a New Rossi 60-F1 about thirty years ago and a GP Dirty Birdy 60 Fiber Glass Kit, you know the one without any formers in the fuse along with a set of Spring Air retracts... Did that in 1993.

Well:

A buddy relit the Pattern Bug locally and I of course got bit. So I got started on the DB, he offered to flush and run the Rossi in for me. I'm Ok with that sez I.

First time up and all is fine, Fired up so we warmed it up for a few mins. and shut it down and let the temps equalize for about the same amount of time. Restart and tune it in just a bit to 11,800 on an old Zinger 11x7 and let it sing for a bit. Idles down just fine and great response on the throttle. I'm a happy camper and well proud of that Thirty year Old NOS Rossi 60..

Now that I think about it I should have gotten at least 12,500 or so with that set up. Oh Well, maybe with the new bearings and a bit more run time.

Anyway today, I went to check out the size for a motor mount and happened to turn the Rossi over.........
I knew the minute I felt the little tic..tic..tic of those little ball bearings as they rolled by and over something.

I pulled the rear cover and gave it a shot of lubricated carb cleaner and sure as little green apples are sour, out poured some micro flects of red rust and red colored cleaner.

Here again is a case of Woulda, Coulda and Shoulda but didn't.
Which I did but thought I had, stored and done prentive care. Here again Woulda, Coulda and Shoulda just was not good enough at least in my case.

A quick call to Rossi enlitened me to the fact that he might have the rear one but not the front and recommended that I order a set of High Temp/High Speed Set from BocaBearing.com.

Hope I got the right ones. #ENK-069HP

http://www.bocabearings.com/search.a...0RC&Feature=60

An expensive lesson if you store engines for any length of time esp. thirty years or so.

Yup! My fault entirely !
But will work on the Dirty Birdy 60 in the mean time while I wait.

DinD

JCINTEXAS

Doug,
You should also check to see if your old Rossi has a metal band around the crankshaft. Many of the Rossi engines of that era had the band running around the circumference of the crank to further pack and reduce the volume of the area beneath the piston. This did make the engine "breathe" better. But often that band would come loose while the engine was running and cause some serious internal damage. This problem caused many Rossi owners to cut the band off the crank as a preventive measure. I ran piped Rossi engines back in the 70's. They were the best pattern engines ever. I'm sure you'll enjoy flying pattern again.
Best Regards

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

JC

That is interesting, although all I can see with the rear cover removed is a full circumferemce counter weight with four machined (drilled holes) that appear to be filled with some kind of compound.
I can not see any kind of band. Would the band be visible with the rear cover removed?

You are very right about the crankcase being packed though. The only volume there is the space between the crank counterweight - conrod - and the back cover.

When the bearings get here and I get it torn down maybe it will be visible then.

My buddy fired up his New AXE Rossi Gold Head .65 and can only get 10,500 with a 12x6 prop but the same fuel with one of those black mini pipe/mufflers, needless to say he is a bit disappointed after seeing 11,800 on my 60.
I suggested a 11x7 3/4 prop and a less restrictive muffler. It just does't have that crisp exhaust note the old Rossi has. I would say it should lite up with a 11 x 7 and go at least 14,500. But then what do I know about these new engines. Not much that is.

Thanks JC

JCINTEXAS

Doug,
It's been so many years ago...I don't remember if the band is visible without dis-assembly. My piped Rossi engines ran best on 3% nitro 18% oil. I used Zinger props...either the 11X7 or 11X7 1/2...don't remember for sure.
14,500 RPM static sound about right.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

The crankshaft that you descibed is the banded one. The area to each side of the crank pin is a high temp plastic of some sort. On the Rossi that I am currently running the stock bearings did not last long. I replaced them with a set from Boca that are made from chrome steel per Boca's reccomendations. They have been in the engine close to a year now. I'm not sure what exact engine you have, mine is what was called a 3+2 meaning it has 5 intake ports. If yours is the same, the engine has huge potential but is held back by the 8mm carb and low exhaust timing. I milled off .030 off the top of the exhaust port to increase the timing to around 170 degrees and then fitted it with a Picco 12mm carb. The Rossi 10mm carb would be better for pattern use. I am also using a Mac's pipe that has been modified to have a 7/8" inlet with my own 7/8" dia header that is 6" long. These few and simple mods gets me 13K with an APC11X11. It's installed in a 6.25 lb 515 sq in pylon airplane. Goes like hell.

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

Thanks speedracerntrixie

I can only count 3 intake ports through the Exhaust ........The front and rear are wide ports but the left side one is a lot smaller. But on the outside of the case it could be a five port if they did some kind of trick slotting deal.


Anyway back to that band..? Do I take my chances and leave it in or do I remove it and fight the loss of fuel draw or whatever else that would do?
Then the four milled (drilled) holes either side of the crank pin, with the filled compound maybe the mounting method they used to hold the band in place.


I have the a 8.5 mm? carb the ventori size is a 8.5? mm and the outside dia. into the engine only measures 15.97 mm. So can I call this a 8 mm carb? I suppose so.

I believe my calipers need calibrating. ?? As they got dropped a while back and the display is cracked 6 different ways. Maybe time for a new one, me thinks.

??????????????

All this for my Dirty Birdi 60 !

Cheers

DinD

UStik

Might this help? The power diagram is dated May 12th 1978. The data are measured by the German engine reviewer at that time. Even though the motor was rated 1.9 kW he got only 1.65 kW (2.2 hp) out of it. You'll see that static run with a Graupner 11x7 gave about 14000 rpm.

The review says the motor has to be run with a tuned pipe! (Obviously the timing is made for that.) The motor likes to run at high rpm; runs roughly below 12000 rpm. Very powerful. Selected, special ball bearings!

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

UStik:

Yes it helps as it gives me some directions to move in, like going to the pipe for one.
If you bracket the more commonly used props and move to a well tuned pipe it should marry up to the Dirty Bridy 60 and make me a very happy flyer esp. with the low nitro content fuels. I favor 5 % or less, but that is just me.

I was lucky enough to get both the Rossi Silencer and the Rossi Tuned Pipe with the engine of that time period, though there maybe some better now. But for Vintage Pattern with the DB it should haul the freight, and still not be too fussy, tune wise at least for this old man.

Once broken in it should be just as awesome as it was then, even at a Mile High.
I'd like 14,500 rpm but would settle for 14,000 with our thin air here. (air density? what air? and with that said I will take what I can get) at 0 relative hum. 100+F degrees and at 5280 ft. alt. you have to compromise.

Thanks UStik, Yes it sure does add to the total picture of what I have in mind!

Cheers

The Rossi 60 below is a F1 but a younger brother to the one I have.. the only difference is mine does not have a bead blasted head finish. For Illistration Proposes Only.

DinD

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

speedracerntrixie

I have been aware of the 10 mm rossi carb but don't have the rossi carb from before. But have a OS 7D that has a 11 mm throat and is restricted down to 10 at the venturi that with my 11/16 pipe adapter X 6 inch and the 11/16 pipe may just be worth fooling around with. The 11/16 is the i.d. which would be 7/8 in. outside dia. I can remember trying that pipe setup on a friends F1 .60 but it kept blowing the pipe adapter off the engine. We thought it may have been to light a spring or too restrictive on the muffled pipe ? I do have a couple of other .60 pipes I could try on the DB 60.

Is that worth a try?
Am just going for old pattern style flying here.

I may have to do a setup on the engine test stand and see what I get static?

Cheers
DinD

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

The engine you have pictured is the 3+2 version and will be more powerful then the other 3 port. The 7D carb will work well. As far as the blowing the header off the engine, it could be the spring and this is why I use lock wire to secure the header to the engine. Being that the stroke is longer on the 3+2 if you try to get 15K out of it then yes you will obviously be pushing more air through the exhaust VS a shorter stroke engine. May or may not be the cause. With mine I have pretty much figured that the power band sits at about 13K. I have tried smaller dia props and spun it up to close to 15K but performance was way down. I love running pipes on these engines as they react so well with them but I hate to see a pipe out in the breeze. If I was to do a DB with a side exhaust engine I would opt for a Jett muffler. A good performance gain and good looks in my book. I also run a Rossi .45 with a Nelso muffler. That one does an APC 9.5X7 pylon prop at 15,800

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry to be late getting back speedracerntrixie !

That is good information and do welcome your input. Your muffler point on the Jett type is more to my likes for the side mounted engine on the DB 60.

Thank You...

Cheers
DinD

Sport_Pilot

Check that it is gritty or not.  Congealed and oxidized castor will look like this as well as some other oils.  The oil may harden but not gritty like rust.  There is a reason they use oil in the old oil based paints.

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

Hi, Sport Pilot !

Thanks !
I sure wish it was just rust, but was rust and hard as sand.
Put some on a piece of heavy metal and could not mash it with the flat blade of a putty knife.
They was still hard, sharp and rolled between my fingers.

Did the flush thing again and then soaked it some model fuel over night. Flush it again and lubed it all back up. Piston and Cylinder liner, conrod and crank pin are smooth as silk. But the bearings are shot and you can feel the rear one grinding through the crankcase as you hold it. Don't sound good either.

That little bit of running didn't do it much good I'm afraid.

Am glad I ordered the new bearings from Boca and will wait till they get here and then tear it down.
Will sure know then...Thanks again SP

Cheers

DinD

GSNut

My Feedback: (8)

Okay, Here is the low down on the OLD Model Rossi F-I .60......

1. It is the three port model ....... [&o]
2. It does have the crank stuffed with two fillers one on each side of the crank pin but on the front side.
(some kind of heat resistant black compound)
3. The Rossi came apart with a little bit of resistance....but I won that one..[>:]
4. The two bearing kit is not for this model... although the rear bearing is the correct size.
(17X30X7) mm's
5. The front bearing is not large enough. I ended up ordering another one of the correct size.
(9X22X7) mm's

So the sizes I have listed here fit and are correct for my OLD Model Rossi F-I .60 !
I did spend a lot of time cleaning out some more rust in both the front and rear bearing seats so I can be sure that it is clean, clean and clean.

Here are the Boca Bearing Numbers for the older model F-I just in case someone else/or myself needs them again.

Front.......MR608/9Z TH9/C3 and measures 9X22X7 mm's
Rear ....... MR6093 TH9/C3 and measures 17X30X7 mm's

What did I learn?
Simply flushing does not always get the job done!


Am back to working on the DB .60 again at least for a while....

Enjoy and Cheers All !
DinD