EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
03-13-2013, 07:28 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
ORIGINAL: pvogel
David, if I'm reading you right, you seem to be thinking that Electric motors are constant power systems like Glow/Gas (spinning faster/slower based on the load delivered by the prop) they aren't. Electric motors are constant speed, they will spin at or very near the rated RPM/V regardless of the load, they'll pull more amps to achieve that speed.
David, if I'm reading you right, you seem to be thinking that Electric motors are constant power systems like Glow/Gas (spinning faster/slower based on the load delivered by the prop) they aren't. Electric motors are constant speed, they will spin at or very near the rated RPM/V regardless of the load, they'll pull more amps to achieve that speed.
I do understand that. However, motors rarely turn at the manufacturers spec kV. If the system was 100% efficient and the spec kV was within 1% of true kV, then the motor would turn at the corresponding rpm given a certain voltage. In practice they turn slower than stated and different loads do alter the prop rpm all else being equal. Take a 12x8E and the 4025-10 will turn it at ~13.7K on 8s; put a 13x10E on it and it will turn at ~13.1K.
The reason I mentioned that Dale might run into issues with the 8s setup on a 13x10 prop is because that setup will overload that specific Scorpion. The motor will simply pull too many electrons and the system will burn out - sooner or later. At least, that's what Scorpion would lead you to conclude based on their specs. If they rate that 10 turn 515 kV motor to 100A max continuous, the setup on an APC 13x10E will be pulling in excess of 110A at WOT while also reducing the efficiency to ~85% and increasing the temperature of the motor.
It just seemed that there ought to be a better speed setup for classic pattern.
Increasing volts and reducing kV is often a good way to reduce the amp draw of the system and since resistance (wasted energy) is a function of the square of the current, reducing amp draw makes your power system more efficient and LESS hot. Ex: a 3s motor at 1030kV would turn at about 11,433 rpm and might pull say, 100A to deliver 1110 watts of power. You could go to 6s at 515kV and turn the same prop at 11433 rpm but only pull 50A and your power system would have 1/4 the power losses due to heat.
So in Dale's case, the only risk of going to 8s is if you are hitting an RPM that would exceed the max RPM of the motor or continuously exceeding the power rating of the motor. The 4025-10 is rated at 2000W with a very low internal resistance. According to motocalc an 8s system with a 12x8 prop would pull very slightly over 2000W (2039 to be exact) and be well within the 100A maximum for the motor at 70A. Assuming Dale isn't flying at 100% throttle the whole time, I would not expect ESC or motor to burn out at all.
On top of that, Lucien knows his stuff!
If he says the 4025-10 is OK on 8s then it'll be OK at 8s turning a shade under 14,000 RPM which sounds well within the max RPM range of most Scorpion motors of this size (though I couldn't find it for this specific motor).
Peter+
Peter+
I was concerned with the concept being advanced - of going to higher diameters and pitches than this. I like the idea of 12x8 but I feel that for ballistic speed a 10x10 or similar at slightly higher rpm might be closer to the desired ballistic experience. The pitch speed of a 10x10 at ~14K rpm is probably in excess of 200 km/h at the expense of some thrust.
David
03-13-2013, 07:39 PM
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03-13-2013, 07:47 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
This is all interesting and theortical however, Inever mentioned using a 13x10 prop, Iwas planning on a 12x8, which should be fine on 8s, as Peter points out. Assuming of course I can find a prop that is specd to go that RPM.
Cheers,
Dale
Cheers,
Dale
03-13-2013, 07:52 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
David, BTW i aslo have 2 other classic e powered planes, a Super Kaos 60 and a Phoenix 7. They are both powered by a Scorpion 4020-8, which seems to be a great choice for a Classic 60 size ship. It turns 12K+ RPMon an 11x7 prop. The EU1 however, is a different animal. It was designed for a .61 on a pipe, but can surely use some extra horsepower, given its size.
Dale
Dale
03-13-2013, 08:28 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
ORIGINAL: SanJoseDale
This is all interesting and theortical however, I never mentioned using a 13x10 prop, I was planning on a 12x8, which should be fine on 8s, as Peter points out. Assuming of course I can find a prop that is specd to go that RPM.
Cheers,
Dale
This is all interesting and theortical however, I never mentioned using a 13x10 prop, I was planning on a 12x8, which should be fine on 8s, as Peter points out. Assuming of course I can find a prop that is specd to go that RPM.
Cheers,
Dale
With a firewall installed for an electric moror, there is probably 10 inches forward of the wing LE, more than enough. all I need is 7 inches to clear a 13 in prop.
It sounds like all's well. 12x8 on 8s. Build on!
David
03-13-2013, 08:34 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
ORIGINAL: SanJoseDale
David, BTW i aslo have 2 other classic e powered planes, a Super Kaos 60 and a Phoenix 7. They are both powered by a Scorpion 4020-8, which seems to be a great choice for a Classic 60 size ship. It turns 12K+ RPM on an 11x7 prop.
David, BTW i aslo have 2 other classic e powered planes, a Super Kaos 60 and a Phoenix 7. They are both powered by a Scorpion 4020-8, which seems to be a great choice for a Classic 60 size ship. It turns 12K+ RPM on an 11x7 prop.
The EU1 however, is a different animal. It was designed for a .61 on a pipe, but can surely use some extra horsepower, given its size.
David
03-14-2013, 05:50 AM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
Hey Dale,
Keep the photos coming! I have been swamped with work, and fixing up my son's planes. I can't wait to get my EU-1A E-conversion done as well. Probably won't be starting it until the end of this season though. I am anxious to see what you come up with though!! I am getting ready to "Speed-Rail" my Harley trailer for this season too!
Take Care,
Jamie
03-14-2013, 01:15 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
ORIGINAL: doxilia
I've had my eye on that motor. Seems like a great choice for 46 size setups as well. Are you running it on 5s or 6s?
David
I've had my eye on that motor. Seems like a great choice for 46 size setups as well. Are you running it on 5s or 6s?
David
06-20-2013, 05:51 PM
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RE: EU-1a Elecrtic Conversion
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Been a while, but after the last contest, where we flew classic, I got inspirited to get moving on the EU1. So here is a few pix of the work over the past few days. Finished up the firewall and nose gear support. As you can see, I use end grain balsa sandwiched carbon material. I’m not sure now why I went through the trouble, it’s a pain to work with and I probably save an entire gram or so over ply.
Next I lined the canopy access I had cut out, using 1/32 ply. Seems nice and solid, but will require a lot of work yet to finish for painting.
Built the rudder, out of ½ in balsa and sheeting per plans.
Right now, the epoxy is drying, from joining the wing panels together. I did contemplate the dihedral angle for quite a while. Guys who flew this bird back in the day said it had proverse yaw, suggesting I cut down the stock dihedral angle. These cores did not come with the dihedral angle cut into them, the manufacturer suggested making the top of the wing flat. Some calculation indicated this would yield a dihedral angle of 4%. Jerry Budd, Mr EU-1, suggested I cut that back to around 2 ½ %. Won’t know if this is correct until I fly it.
This project is going to take a while!
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08-20-2013, 03:05 PM
#36
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Yes, but not a lot. Have the wings joined, bllty pan attached, rudder built, stab attached. I'll send pix later, but this is going slow.
I will soon need to start finishing the fuse, which I am not looking forward to. Filling the seam and countless hours of filling the pin holes. I forgot just how much work this is, haven't built a plane like this from scratch in 20 years.
Dale
I will soon need to start finishing the fuse, which I am not looking forward to. Filling the seam and countless hours of filling the pin holes. I forgot just how much work this is, haven't built a plane like this from scratch in 20 years.
Dale
09-02-2013, 09:07 PM
#39
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I had two EU-1As back in the 80's. The yellow/blue one had a OS .61 and weighs 9 1/4 lbs. The white one had a Rossi .61 and a flying stabilizer with a weight of 9 lbs. They were the best airplanes I have ever flown. The faster the EU-1A flys the better. I flew a friend's at 11 lbs with a .91 and it was a dog. Watching this thread with much interest.
09-03-2013, 09:30 AM
#40
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I've started the finishing process, and even received a set of Thunderbird decals. Robert, I would love to be flying it at Holster. Yesterday Jon and I got out the Phoenix 7 to practice, and when I landed, the canopy was missing. so spend time testerday building this. Not gonna be pretty, but should fly...
09-16-2013, 12:54 PM
#41
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Robert asked me to bring it to Hollister this past weekend, so i did, and that was fortunate. I was "almost" ready to start the finishing process (actually not really even close), but Chip offered to finish it up and paint the fuse. In exchange I will be doing some monocoating for him, which I much prefer. After Chip got home last night, he did a little work, and here are a few pictures. I'll get this back by Arvin Contest, and with any luck, have it in the air in Nov. Maybe even in time for the Lancaster classic contest.
09-17-2013, 06:37 PM
#43
Dale, if I knew Chip was going to be offering to finish airplanes I would have dropped by with my Dalotel. The EU-1a was always one of my faves. Always invisioned having one done up in either Thunderbirds scheme or Circus Circus. We should get together soon at Hollister with our Lasers.
10-27-2013, 08:39 AM
#46
That is looking really sweet!. Hey Chip when can I drop off my Dalotel? LOL Actually I'm having a work buddy finish it off for me. Chip you met him a last weekend at a CL stunt contest. Small world. I'm going with the prototype scheme all in silkspan and dope.
10-27-2013, 09:21 AM
#47
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SRT,
that's a nice looking Dalo. Innovative construction too!
How much is the all up weight unfinished? Do you have a YS or Rossi up front now? You need to update your thread with a few snaps!
David
that's a nice looking Dalo. Innovative construction too!
How much is the all up weight unfinished? Do you have a YS or Rossi up front now? You need to update your thread with a few snaps!
David
10-27-2013, 11:30 AM
#48
David, thanks. I do need to update my Dalo thread. I'm afraid I have been suffering from airplane ADHD and hopping from airplane to airplane here in the shop. Im pretty much at a stand still on a 40% Extra so I have picked back up on the Dalo. I havent weighed it yet but I'm pretty sure I will be right around 8 lbs RTF. I went with YS power as my Rossi hit the ground pretty hard when I lost an elevator pushrod on the pylon airplane it was in. I will get updates on the thread soon as to not disturb Dales Killer EU-1a build.
04-01-2014, 04:48 PM
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Been a while since posting, but my EU1 is complete and I now have a few dozen flights on it. This past weekend at the Oakdale contest, I managed to beat all the glow guys with it 
My main challenge, having done 2 earlier classics on electric, was flight times. On this plane, I am using a Zippy Compact 5000 mAh 8s battery. I am having no issue getting through an advanced sequence. I do think I can compete in Masters as well, with careful maneuver selection.
Speed is no issue at all. I am turning a 12x8 prop @ 14.000 RPM on the ground. The prop noise sounds like a 2 stroke on the pipe!
I initially set the CG per plans. The first flights had a pull to the canopy which led me to check the CG. Turns out the plan CG was 22% MAC, which seemed awfully far forward to me. Perhaps the forward location is because of the big delta wing, dunno? I decided to make a big change and move the batter WAY back to a point that yielded 33-35% MAC, The canopy pull is still there but greatly reduced, it rolls much better and less mix is needed for knife edge. I wonder of others that flew this plane back in the day discovered this?
Looking forward to mixing it up with all you glow guys, soon!
My main challenge, having done 2 earlier classics on electric, was flight times. On this plane, I am using a Zippy Compact 5000 mAh 8s battery. I am having no issue getting through an advanced sequence. I do think I can compete in Masters as well, with careful maneuver selection.
Speed is no issue at all. I am turning a 12x8 prop @ 14.000 RPM on the ground. The prop noise sounds like a 2 stroke on the pipe!
I initially set the CG per plans. The first flights had a pull to the canopy which led me to check the CG. Turns out the plan CG was 22% MAC, which seemed awfully far forward to me. Perhaps the forward location is because of the big delta wing, dunno? I decided to make a big change and move the batter WAY back to a point that yielded 33-35% MAC, The canopy pull is still there but greatly reduced, it rolls much better and less mix is needed for knife edge. I wonder of others that flew this plane back in the day discovered this?
Looking forward to mixing it up with all you glow guys, soon!
