Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
06-13-2013, 02:03 PM
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Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
OK, now that I have your attention, and I only did this to see what the reaction would be, I'll lay out what I've been told. Richard Verano and Will Barett in my opinion, had a lot to do with the resurgent of the new YS60FR classic motor - thank you Will and Richard. There is talk and interest of the remakes of MK kits, especially Naruke design kits. As you've seen in the last few weeks, MK kits were everywhere. I've never seen so many at one time and for good money. Here's the deal, Naruke's design team or his company, needs 100 people to commit to the purchase of these kits BUT unlike Richard Verano getting a verbal commitment, the folks in Japan need $100 from at least 100 people in the form of a money order. Before I can go any further, first I need to know for those who are interested, what kit are you interested in. Also, there is a possibility that if enough people have an interest and are committed, other MK kits will come to life. Now bare in mind, these kits won't be cheap as we've seen what these kits went for recently. So I just need to know is who is SERIOUSLY interest and would consider the $100 up front. I've also been told that these money orders will be held uncashedI until the magic 100 people are accounted for. If that magic number doesn't happen, MO will be return and I believe the MO will be held here in the US. This is all I know for now. The person that was selling all those MK kits asked that I put out the message to see of their is an interest. He's also the person that got me the first YS motor here in the states. The guy is straight up and honest - he has the contacts in the right places with the right people in Japan. So, let me know what you think
Steven
Steven
06-14-2013, 04:36 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
My interpretation of the 'teaser' is that Naruke Hobbies would release kits of airplanes originally kitted by MK. They already produce limited numbers of exquisite pattern kits which they make on demand (order, pay, then wait about 8-10 weeks for your kit to arrive). MK kitted at least 3 of Naruke's designs (Cosmos, Aurora, Silent) which would be the most likely candidates for rerelease. However, we can hope that Mr. Naruke would purchase the rights to kit all the MK catalog. It is only conjecture on my part, but one can hope... 
06-14-2013, 05:41 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
A little more information based on a conversation I had about 5-6 years ago: at that time MK (Mr. Kato) was considering converting to laser cutting and producing more ARC/ARF airplanes. His major concerns were the cost of converting to laser cutting (equipment), the price and availability of contest grade balsa and the demand for pattern specific kits/airplanes. Obviously he did not feel the market could support his potential investment.
IF Naruke does consider producing more 'classic' kits I would anticipate top quality laser cut kits, but at a premium price.
IF Naruke does consider producing more 'classic' kits I would anticipate top quality laser cut kits, but at a premium price.
06-15-2013, 08:52 PM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
Steven,
Not to sound negative about it as I think the re-release of MK kits would be just peachy but as presented, it all sounds a bit weird for lack of a better word.
I'm going to sleep on it to form a somewhat more intelligent reply.
David
Not to sound negative about it as I think the re-release of MK kits would be just peachy but as presented, it all sounds a bit weird for lack of a better word.
I'm going to sleep on it to form a somewhat more intelligent reply.
David
06-16-2013, 07:21 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
Just to clear, I am not spearing heading this venture, if it takes root. I am merely the messenger, so don' shoot me. There will be a lot of questions that will come about after reading this. If there is enough interest, I will forward those individuals to the person that will be responsible.
06-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
Steven,
Thanks. I'm still on my phone so a more detailed comment on my part will have to wait. That said, would it be possible to get the folks who would coordinate (Chuck?) the effort involved here? It might lend itself to a more direct path to the intended goal and less hearsay.
Just wondering.
David
Thanks. I'm still on my phone so a more detailed comment on my part will have to wait. That said, would it be possible to get the folks who would coordinate (Chuck?) the effort involved here? It might lend itself to a more direct path to the intended goal and less hearsay.
Just wondering.
David
06-17-2013, 06:05 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
ORIGINAL: flywilly
A little more information based on a conversation I had about 5-6 years ago: at that time MK (Mr. Kato) was considering converting to laser cutting and producing more ARC/ARF airplanes. His major concerns were the cost of converting to laser cutting (equipment), the price and availability of contest grade balsa and the demand for pattern specific kits/airplanes. Obviously he did not feel the market could support his potential investment.
IF Naruke does consider producing more 'classic' kits I would anticipate top quality laser cut kits, but at a premium price.
A little more information based on a conversation I had about 5-6 years ago: at that time MK (Mr. Kato) was considering converting to laser cutting and producing more ARC/ARF airplanes. His major concerns were the cost of converting to laser cutting (equipment), the price and availability of contest grade balsa and the demand for pattern specific kits/airplanes. Obviously he did not feel the market could support his potential investment.
IF Naruke does consider producing more 'classic' kits I would anticipate top quality laser cut kits, but at a premium price.
Still, I doubt there's enoughbusiness in classics alone to justify the expenses (money, effortand time).
On the other hand, nothing says they couldn't get into current 2M pattern stuff or even larger scale IMAC planes. I for one would love to see some 90", 1300 -1400 square inch pattern models for the latest 55 and 60 cc gas singles or even the 70cc twins, essentially defining a totally new pattern class in FAI. Not classic per se, but fun.....and trulyinexpensive to own and operate, with minimal maintenance hassles. BUT that's a big gamble for a small company......
06-17-2013, 09:58 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
Finally find myself in front of a keyboard. I wanted to elaborate a bit as my reaction was somewhat mixed...
I'm glad to hear there is talk because there would, without a doubt, be interest. And wide interest I suspect. Some would buy the kits even if there would be no plans to build them any time soon. However, if there was new stock availability, then consumption would undoubtedly go up both for immediately buildable kits as well as future builds.
A fellow modeller in California has recently been offering MK classic kits in 40 and 60 size primarily. It was mentioned that 20 size kits would also be available from the same collector in Japan but I haven't heard back from the seller on this front. He has been offering me 60 size kits instead which is kind of him but doesn't address my inquiry.
The reason I mentioned it was "weird" was because Naruke would be asking for a $10K guarantee of sorts. I think the figure is more than reasonable but I'm not sure how far $10K will take Naruke's company in the "tool up" for the re-production of his designs. Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way but from what I understand a line production laser cutter would be well into the several tens of thousand and that is but one of the tools required.
The other issue is that part of the beauty of MK kits was/is the way they used routed parts as well as pre-assembled components (e.g., wing sheeting, tail blocks, etc.). The level of prefabrication was very high especially in the larger 60, 90 and 120 size kits. The parts were also all ready to go for assembly meaning that little or no "prep work" was required by the builder. I'm probably digressing but other than tooling up for the production of ARF's of Naruke's designs (which would be rather different), I can't see how modern laser cutting would aid in the production of what made and still makes MK kits so desirable. It is the "hand labor" and Japanese level of detail of yesterday that made these last century kits so unique. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to sing the praises of laser cutting but I'm just not sure that a "transformation" of the Japanese kit approach would be preserved with modern techniques. I suppose there is always the CNC approach to cutting and routers today would certainly be a great leap forward in production efficiency compared to 30-40 years ago.
The other question is with regard to the pricing of the kits. Unless there is something "special" with the modernized kits as there was with the vintage MK kits, a straight forward laser cut kit of the same designs wouldn't warrant the prices that the "collectors" vintage kits go for nowadays which is, frankly, stratospheric. Excessive in my opinion (at least for buildable flying production models - not those that sit boxed on the shelf). And of course shipping at $150 a kit would also be entirely untenable but naturally it would be expected that Naruke's company would see to proper volume shipping just as is done with current ARF kits coming from the other side of the pond.
Steven,
you mentioned that you wouldn't be spearheading the effort but above you mention that you would need to know what kits would be of interest. Again, I think if this is a serious effort, the parties involved should present themselves to us. Just like Will, Don, Rob, Bill and even the Austrians have presented themselves in their efforts to bring back classics in one way or another. If I was spearheading the liaison between the Japanese and the international classic hobby community (which I'm clearly not) I would start by presenting which specific models/kits would be done and what their cost would be. I would also elaborate on how they would be re-designed and re-produced something which Naruke's team would have no problem presenting given their current level of 2M pattern involvement. If Naruke's company is serious about getting back into the classic business, it wouldn't be for a couple of years to re-release 100 kits. The tool-up costs, production and marketing effort would want the effort to be sustained for at least 8-10 years. Then we'd be talking about a minimum of 1000 kits sold at ~$300-400 a pop which approaches a $0.5M business over 10 years. That said, I think there are easily more than 100 classic modelers worldwide who would be interested in MK kits and probably not for one but easily 5-10 over the same decade period. Now that equates to a much more tenable $3-5M business.
I suppose I'm thinking aloud and all the financial and logistical details are of no concern of mine but I guess I'm trying to visualize how and why this effort would be undertaken and what potential results it might have. I think another factor to consider, particularly with 60 size classics is the fact that there are now several glass/foam kit options for us to choose from. I'd say there are at least three sources which are actively making these and not always is one interested in building an MK wood Aurora (as an example) if one can build a glass/foam version especially if the latter is 25-40% less costly.
I am evidently biased on the next comments (for reasons many of you are aware of who have followed my time and activity on the forums), but I would be remiss to not mention that I think a sizable business opportunity would be lost if consideration to the smaller 20 and 40 size kits (as well as the 120 size but less so) were not given. Why? Because park flyer size models are big business and 40 size models can be designed and built today to be light and cost efficient while still offering much of the same "feel" a 60 size classic offers. The lower cost of the 20 and 40 size kits also (20's - $200, 40's - $300 and 60's - $400?) makes it an easier "bite" for many to take given the opportunity. One would be presented with the option to pick up a couple of 20 size classics vs a 60 size for the same outlay. Naturally two very different flying alternatives but many of us are impulse spenders on our hobby. Another approach, to simplify the "production line" would be to fore go the 3 size approach which MK had (20, 40 and 60 size) and just go with a 2 size approach - 30 and 60 size options. 30 size Cosmos', Aurora's, Skymaster's (a Kato design), Blue Angels (A Yoshioka/Kato design) and Beetle's (I believe an Akiba design) could also be designed to be either glow or electric powered (something I've put some effort in to). Both Japanese and European current glow engine options are available for these 30 size models.
Well, enough stream of thought on my part. If anyone has any thoughts or counterpoints to my comments, it would be interesting to hear them.
David
ORIGINAL: auggie622
There is talk and interest of the remakes of MK kits, especially Naruke design kits. As you've seen in the last few weeks, MK kits were everywhere. I've never seen so many at one time and for good money.
There is talk and interest of the remakes of MK kits, especially Naruke design kits. As you've seen in the last few weeks, MK kits were everywhere. I've never seen so many at one time and for good money.
A fellow modeller in California has recently been offering MK classic kits in 40 and 60 size primarily. It was mentioned that 20 size kits would also be available from the same collector in Japan but I haven't heard back from the seller on this front. He has been offering me 60 size kits instead which is kind of him but doesn't address my inquiry.
ORIGINAL: auggie622
Here's the deal, Naruke's design team or his company, needs 100 people to commit to the purchase of these kits BUT unlike Richard Verano getting a verbal commitment, the folks in Japan need $100 from at least 100 people in the form of a money order.
Here's the deal, Naruke's design team or his company, needs 100 people to commit to the purchase of these kits BUT unlike Richard Verano getting a verbal commitment, the folks in Japan need $100 from at least 100 people in the form of a money order.
The other issue is that part of the beauty of MK kits was/is the way they used routed parts as well as pre-assembled components (e.g., wing sheeting, tail blocks, etc.). The level of prefabrication was very high especially in the larger 60, 90 and 120 size kits. The parts were also all ready to go for assembly meaning that little or no "prep work" was required by the builder. I'm probably digressing but other than tooling up for the production of ARF's of Naruke's designs (which would be rather different), I can't see how modern laser cutting would aid in the production of what made and still makes MK kits so desirable. It is the "hand labor" and Japanese level of detail of yesterday that made these last century kits so unique. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to sing the praises of laser cutting but I'm just not sure that a "transformation" of the Japanese kit approach would be preserved with modern techniques. I suppose there is always the CNC approach to cutting and routers today would certainly be a great leap forward in production efficiency compared to 30-40 years ago.
The other question is with regard to the pricing of the kits. Unless there is something "special" with the modernized kits as there was with the vintage MK kits, a straight forward laser cut kit of the same designs wouldn't warrant the prices that the "collectors" vintage kits go for nowadays which is, frankly, stratospheric. Excessive in my opinion (at least for buildable flying production models - not those that sit boxed on the shelf). And of course shipping at $150 a kit would also be entirely untenable but naturally it would be expected that Naruke's company would see to proper volume shipping just as is done with current ARF kits coming from the other side of the pond.
ORIGINAL: auggie622
Before I can go any further, first I need to know for those who are interested, what kit are you interested in. Also, there is a possibility that if enough people have an interest and are committed, other MK kits will come to life. Now bare in mind, these kits won't be cheap as we've seen what these kits went for recently. So I just need to know is who is SERIOUSLY interest and would consider the $100 up front. I've also been told that these money orders will be held uncashedI until the magic 100 people are accounted for. If that magic number doesn't happen, MO will be return and I believe the MO will be held here in the US. This is all I know for now. The person that was selling all those MK kits asked that I put out the message to see of their is an interest. He's also the person that got me the first YS motor here in the states. The guy is straight up and honest - he has the contacts in the right places with the right people in Japan. So, let me know what you think
Steven
Before I can go any further, first I need to know for those who are interested, what kit are you interested in. Also, there is a possibility that if enough people have an interest and are committed, other MK kits will come to life. Now bare in mind, these kits won't be cheap as we've seen what these kits went for recently. So I just need to know is who is SERIOUSLY interest and would consider the $100 up front. I've also been told that these money orders will be held uncashedI until the magic 100 people are accounted for. If that magic number doesn't happen, MO will be return and I believe the MO will be held here in the US. This is all I know for now. The person that was selling all those MK kits asked that I put out the message to see of their is an interest. He's also the person that got me the first YS motor here in the states. The guy is straight up and honest - he has the contacts in the right places with the right people in Japan. So, let me know what you think
Steven
you mentioned that you wouldn't be spearheading the effort but above you mention that you would need to know what kits would be of interest. Again, I think if this is a serious effort, the parties involved should present themselves to us. Just like Will, Don, Rob, Bill and even the Austrians have presented themselves in their efforts to bring back classics in one way or another. If I was spearheading the liaison between the Japanese and the international classic hobby community (which I'm clearly not) I would start by presenting which specific models/kits would be done and what their cost would be. I would also elaborate on how they would be re-designed and re-produced something which Naruke's team would have no problem presenting given their current level of 2M pattern involvement. If Naruke's company is serious about getting back into the classic business, it wouldn't be for a couple of years to re-release 100 kits. The tool-up costs, production and marketing effort would want the effort to be sustained for at least 8-10 years. Then we'd be talking about a minimum of 1000 kits sold at ~$300-400 a pop which approaches a $0.5M business over 10 years. That said, I think there are easily more than 100 classic modelers worldwide who would be interested in MK kits and probably not for one but easily 5-10 over the same decade period. Now that equates to a much more tenable $3-5M business.
I suppose I'm thinking aloud and all the financial and logistical details are of no concern of mine but I guess I'm trying to visualize how and why this effort would be undertaken and what potential results it might have. I think another factor to consider, particularly with 60 size classics is the fact that there are now several glass/foam kit options for us to choose from. I'd say there are at least three sources which are actively making these and not always is one interested in building an MK wood Aurora (as an example) if one can build a glass/foam version especially if the latter is 25-40% less costly.
I am evidently biased on the next comments (for reasons many of you are aware of who have followed my time and activity on the forums), but I would be remiss to not mention that I think a sizable business opportunity would be lost if consideration to the smaller 20 and 40 size kits (as well as the 120 size but less so) were not given. Why? Because park flyer size models are big business and 40 size models can be designed and built today to be light and cost efficient while still offering much of the same "feel" a 60 size classic offers. The lower cost of the 20 and 40 size kits also (20's - $200, 40's - $300 and 60's - $400?) makes it an easier "bite" for many to take given the opportunity. One would be presented with the option to pick up a couple of 20 size classics vs a 60 size for the same outlay. Naturally two very different flying alternatives but many of us are impulse spenders on our hobby. Another approach, to simplify the "production line" would be to fore go the 3 size approach which MK had (20, 40 and 60 size) and just go with a 2 size approach - 30 and 60 size options. 30 size Cosmos', Aurora's, Skymaster's (a Kato design), Blue Angels (A Yoshioka/Kato design) and Beetle's (I believe an Akiba design) could also be designed to be either glow or electric powered (something I've put some effort in to). Both Japanese and European current glow engine options are available for these 30 size models.
Well, enough stream of thought on my part. If anyone has any thoughts or counterpoints to my comments, it would be interesting to hear them.
David
06-17-2013, 10:21 AM
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
ORIGINAL: MTK
Still, I doubt there's enough business in classics alone to justify the expenses (money, effort and time).
Still, I doubt there's enough business in classics alone to justify the expenses (money, effort and time).
I think this is the key point. Unfortunately a list of 100 committed buyers at $100 deposit each doesn't properly represent the potential business or lack thereof nor does it warrant the equipment investment that might be required to tool-up for the re-release of the MK classics. However, I don't think effort and time are of any specific consequence. As with any business, money first and drive (or commitment) second are the only key factors. All else unfolds from there.
[/quote]
On the other hand, nothing says they couldn't get into current 2M pattern stuff or even larger scale IMAC planes. I for one would love to see some 90'', 1300 -1400 square inch pattern models for the latest 55 and 60 cc gas singles or even the 70cc twins, essentially defining a totally new pattern class in FAI. Not classic per se, but fun.....and truly inexpensive to own and operate, with minimal maintenance hassles. BUT that's a big gamble for a small company......
I'm thinking aloud again but the large model gas engine powered pattern plane is a rather different business concept and model than the classic 60 size (and maybe smaller) plane. It strikes me a bit like attempting to produce shoes and pizza's from the same small shop. But maybe that's just because I haven't seen any other small shop do it. Those who do are the big two (Horizon and Hobbico).
There is no denying though that whatever undertaking the Japanese would embark on for the international pattern community is well worth following. There is little they do that isn't aligned with the concepts of perfection and beauty!
David
06-17-2013, 10:58 AM
#25
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RE: Remake of MK Kits from Naruke
David, yeah those are my points really. As far as Japan and IMAC go, about the only activity was regards TOC, and asI recall, most of the crates were of either American or European origin. Where the top Japanese pilots practiced TOC routines is not known (by me at least).
On the other hand, Model Airplanes hold a very high, lofty place in Japanese politics, to this day. It might not have been such a big deal to convince authorities.
A bunch of years ago now, Tony Stillman showed me something unique that stayed with me in regards to such politics.....he showed me Japanes postage stamps emblazoned with model aircraft of the various Japanese Champions, in various desciplines. He was Team Manageras I recall and his Japanese counterpart gave him the gift of a bunch of such stamps. Think about an American or Canadian government agency doing such a thing...issuing stamps of model planes
You mentioned OS gasoline engines. If OS would have come out with their GT33 15 years ago rather than the 140RX, they might have taken Pattern over from YS in a very big and tangible way. The manners and overall output from this little jewel has to be experienced to be understood.
On the other hand, Model Airplanes hold a very high, lofty place in Japanese politics, to this day. It might not have been such a big deal to convince authorities.
A bunch of years ago now, Tony Stillman showed me something unique that stayed with me in regards to such politics.....he showed me Japanes postage stamps emblazoned with model aircraft of the various Japanese Champions, in various desciplines. He was Team Manageras I recall and his Japanese counterpart gave him the gift of a bunch of such stamps. Think about an American or Canadian government agency doing such a thing...issuing stamps of model planes
You mentioned OS gasoline engines. If OS would have come out with their GT33 15 years ago rather than the 140RX, they might have taken Pattern over from YS in a very big and tangible way. The manners and overall output from this little jewel has to be experienced to be understood.