Older and Slower
09-17-2013, 12:40 PM
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Older and Slower
Are there any old designs that were not rocket ships? Or can the old desogns be
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
09-17-2013, 01:29 PM
#2
I think your answer would be yes but I'm not sure too many have tried it. If you could build it in the 5 to 6 lb range and put an OS 55 on it or electric I imagine it could be done.
Most of these planes have a 16-17% chord so they should slow a bit but having a symmetrical wing might hurt a bit though. Isn't the Kadet a flat bottom wing?
Most of these planes have a 16-17% chord so they should slow a bit but having a symmetrical wing might hurt a bit though. Isn't the Kadet a flat bottom wing?
Last edited by Timthetoolman1; 09-17-2013 at 04:01 PM.
09-17-2013, 03:09 PM
#4
Are there any old designs that were not rocket ships? Or can the old desogns be
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
Would you consider a Sun fli 3 or 4, a Kaos, a Kwik Fli...? How about a Daddy Rabbit? None of these are designed for retracts. They fly slower, and can be powered to be faster... if so desired.
How about a Bridi RCM Advanced Trainer? They are fully capable and often used as back up pattern planes by very many experienced flyers. This airplane will slow very well and land easier than any flat bottom wing as it is symmetrical as well.
With the symmetric wing, they will all land much easier than a flat bottom wing trainer.
Brian
09-17-2013, 05:41 PM
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The above suggestions are all excellent. I have seen several club members fly the U-Can-Do which seems to perform well at very slow speeds; hopefully it is still available. Another pattern airplane worth considering is the Deception. It has a thick -as in slower- airfoil and can be built with fixed gear if you wish. Keep it light and it will perform well.
Are you looking for an airplane with a maximum airspeed of the Kadet Senior or just a slow landing speed?
Are you looking for an airplane with a maximum airspeed of the Kadet Senior or just a slow landing speed?
09-18-2013, 01:18 AM
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Are there any old designs that were not rocket ships? Or can the old desogns be
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?
I would like a plane that looks like a Tiporare or Curare, but that can fly slow like a Kadet Senior.
Has this ever existed?
James
This question came up in another thread and I wanted you to know that you don't have to fly Classic pattern planes Full bore, pedal to the metal. My 40 sized Kaos is very docile and flies great at 1/4 thottle. What I think is most important is how you trim these planes.
For example -- if you set the CG correctly on a Kaos you should get very nice slow landings. If you set the CG aft of its center of gravity like they sometimes do on 3D planes it will likely tip stall as you come in for a landing as it will be tail heavy. If the balance the plane forward of CG the plane will come in hot.
Ok that said. You can always build a Tipo or Curare fuse and modify a Kadet wing to fit it and to slow it down. Won't look as good with a square non tapered wing but it could get you what you want. Later, as an upgrade, you could build the original wing and swap out the non-tapered for the new wing.
A thicker fully symmetrical wing will be slower. A Kadet style wing modified to fit a Tipo would significantly slow it down.
The planes Brian mentioned above should all have real good handling at low speeds if trimmed correctly.
Your question led me to check out some various wing thicknesses of several of Bridi's older designs based on the percentage of wing thickness to cord width and of Bridi's designs mentioned above the Sun Fli 4 has an almost 20% (19.12%) wing section (thickness). see red outline in table below
If you're looking for a kit the Sun Fli 4 from Blue Jay should provide you a slow flying plane as long as you don't put the pedal to the metal. Not as slow as a Kadet, but slow enough that you should be fine with it. http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/sunfli4.html The price for it is reasonable at $100 plus shipping.
Bryan
09-18-2013, 04:02 AM
#10
James,
This question came up in another thread and I wanted you to know that you don't have to fly Classic pattern planes Full bore, pedal to the metal. My 40 sized Kaos is very docile and flies great at 1/4 thottle. What I think is most important is how you trim these planes.
For example -- if you set the CG correctly on a Kaos you should get very nice slow landings. If you set the CG aft of its center of gravity like they sometimes do on 3D planes it will likely tip stall as you come in for a landing as it will be tail heavy. If the balance the plane forward of CG the plane will come in hot.
Ok that said. You can always build a Tipo or Curare fuse and modify a Kadet wing to fit it and to slow it down. Won't look as good with a square non tapered wing but it could get you what you want. Later, as an upgrade, you could build the original wing and swap out the non-tapered for the new wing.
A thicker fully symmetrical wing will be slower. A Kadet style wing modified to fit a Tipo would significantly slow it down.
The planes Brian mentioned above should all have real good handling at low speeds if trimmed correctly.
Your question led me to check out some various wing thicknesses of several of Bridi's older designs based on the percentage of wing thickness to cord width and of Bridi's designs mentioned above the Sun Fli 4 has an almost 20% (19.12%) wing section (thickness). see red outline in table below
If you're looking for a kit the Sun Fli 4 from Blue Jay should provide you a slow flying plane as long as you don't put the pedal to the metal. Not as slow as a Kadet, but slow enough that you should be fine with it. http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/sunfli4.html The price for it is reasonable at $100 plus shipping.
Bryan
This question came up in another thread and I wanted you to know that you don't have to fly Classic pattern planes Full bore, pedal to the metal. My 40 sized Kaos is very docile and flies great at 1/4 thottle. What I think is most important is how you trim these planes.
For example -- if you set the CG correctly on a Kaos you should get very nice slow landings. If you set the CG aft of its center of gravity like they sometimes do on 3D planes it will likely tip stall as you come in for a landing as it will be tail heavy. If the balance the plane forward of CG the plane will come in hot.
Ok that said. You can always build a Tipo or Curare fuse and modify a Kadet wing to fit it and to slow it down. Won't look as good with a square non tapered wing but it could get you what you want. Later, as an upgrade, you could build the original wing and swap out the non-tapered for the new wing.
A thicker fully symmetrical wing will be slower. A Kadet style wing modified to fit a Tipo would significantly slow it down.
The planes Brian mentioned above should all have real good handling at low speeds if trimmed correctly.
Your question led me to check out some various wing thicknesses of several of Bridi's older designs based on the percentage of wing thickness to cord width and of Bridi's designs mentioned above the Sun Fli 4 has an almost 20% (19.12%) wing section (thickness). see red outline in table below
If you're looking for a kit the Sun Fli 4 from Blue Jay should provide you a slow flying plane as long as you don't put the pedal to the metal. Not as slow as a Kadet, but slow enough that you should be fine with it. http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/sunfli4.html The price for it is reasonable at $100 plus shipping.
Bryan
That chart is cool! Do you have it with the XLT, Escape, and Great Escape as well?
Brian
09-18-2013, 05:21 AM
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Actually it would be pretty easy depending on how much you want it to look like a pattern ship. It also depends if you want it to be able to be as aerobatic as a pattern ship.
To make it slow but give up the precision then you would build it very light, don't put on so much engine that it adds a lot of weight and change to a semi-symmetrical airfoil that's closer to flat than symmetrical.
If you want the same precision then keep a symmetrical airfoil, make it a bit thicker and still build very light.
If you want it fully sheeted then you've got your work cut out for you. You can make it very light compared to other sheeted aircraft but you won't end up as light as something like a Kadet or a Telemaster.
One of the major points of the Turnaround Pattern was slower aircraft because they had to stay inside a box. Lower weight = less inertia = turns around faster. So while they don't look like classic pattern ships, they are pattern and they are lighter and fly slower. Maybe not as slow as you want though.
No matter what the key is making your plane as light as you possibly can and still have it strong enough to be airworthy and survive ground-handling.
To make it slow but give up the precision then you would build it very light, don't put on so much engine that it adds a lot of weight and change to a semi-symmetrical airfoil that's closer to flat than symmetrical.
If you want the same precision then keep a symmetrical airfoil, make it a bit thicker and still build very light.
If you want it fully sheeted then you've got your work cut out for you. You can make it very light compared to other sheeted aircraft but you won't end up as light as something like a Kadet or a Telemaster.
One of the major points of the Turnaround Pattern was slower aircraft because they had to stay inside a box. Lower weight = less inertia = turns around faster. So while they don't look like classic pattern ships, they are pattern and they are lighter and fly slower. Maybe not as slow as you want though.
No matter what the key is making your plane as light as you possibly can and still have it strong enough to be airworthy and survive ground-handling.
09-18-2013, 05:23 AM
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By the way, you can taper the wing. What I would do is put no sheeting at all on the wing except in the center, build it to the original size but put a .45 in it. Mine would come in about 4 to 4-1/4 pounds tops. With all that wing it would fly very slowly.
09-18-2013, 05:45 AM
#13
I love the looks of the older pattern planes too. I don't like the looks much of the new pattern planes with HUGE profiles that are predominantly electric. However, if you can get by the looks, these new planes fly slow, as slow as your trainer types if you like. The looks are growing on me slowly as one of the nicest guys at my field now, has only had these new gen pattern planes, and he flies a lot so I see them often, haha.
09-18-2013, 06:17 AM
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It strikes me that the "transition" modifications being suggested are increasingly closer to existing designs. A Falcon or a Stick (changing the foil) would do the trick or even better a 4*. Semi-symmetric, light, fast frame up yet still easy to fly but aerobatic if wanted.
A really interesting wing planform and airfoil for the desired craft is that of the Side Pocket. I think this last design would fit the bill on all fronts yielding a model with classic pattern looks.
Naturally, they don't look or fly like a Tipo but they are "slow pattern" craft. I feel that getting a Tipo to fly like a Kadet, or vice versa, is somewhat counterproductive. Akin to getting a Spitfire or Mustang to fly like a Texan... Those planes were purpose designed as are the models. Seeing a Tipo fly like a Kadet would be most displeasing. A seasoned pilot would look at it and say something's wrong.
Yes, the more I think about it the more the Side Pocket sounds like the way to go - very clever wing along with a "slow stab".
David
A really interesting wing planform and airfoil for the desired craft is that of the Side Pocket. I think this last design would fit the bill on all fronts yielding a model with classic pattern looks.
Naturally, they don't look or fly like a Tipo but they are "slow pattern" craft. I feel that getting a Tipo to fly like a Kadet, or vice versa, is somewhat counterproductive. Akin to getting a Spitfire or Mustang to fly like a Texan... Those planes were purpose designed as are the models. Seeing a Tipo fly like a Kadet would be most displeasing. A seasoned pilot would look at it and say something's wrong.
Yes, the more I think about it the more the Side Pocket sounds like the way to go - very clever wing along with a "slow stab".
David
09-18-2013, 06:29 AM
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In the vein of this thread, Mike, over on RCG, is doing an interesting exercise. He took the venerable "first low wing" Skylark design and modified the foil to better suit his flying preference. He went a step further, and took those original lines and modified them with a swept wing and stab, a slick looking fuse in a very cool resulting model.
Starting with the right design (probably not a Tipo), an inverse exercise, might also yield the desired plane.
David
Starting with the right design (probably not a Tipo), an inverse exercise, might also yield the desired plane.
David
09-18-2013, 07:41 AM
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09-18-2013, 07:57 AM
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the guy uses a kadet as a base line to his quesiton and you guys want him to get a U can do .. a UCD may indeed fly at a slower airspeed then a ugly stick .but its quck to respond and i dunno if that's what this guy needs . you need to be able to fly infront of a UCD with your mind ... not so much with a slow poke you can fly at the same pace in your mind and it will not bite you ...
look up a quaker or a slow Poke .. something like that .. i think he's refering too ... a telamaster ..
also not to be rude but I'm just going to say it like it is around where I am ...
the Older guy's that start to have a trouble at the airfield .. they tended to end up going to the Indoor local Gym and do flying there with small indoor foamys like hte park zone champ yada yada ... some times they still come out with a trainer or a cub or something but vary often they don't fly ... now this isnt evey single one of them .. matter of fact i still buddy box with a guy in his 80's i take him up he does his thing and i land him .. he loves sig four stars easy sports big sticks ....he's one heck of a nice guy and flys vary well .. he probably could land but it stress'es him .. so he perfers the buddy box .. and we have more then anough pepole to main the box around the club
look up a quaker or a slow Poke .. something like that .. i think he's refering too ... a telamaster ..
also not to be rude but I'm just going to say it like it is around where I am ...
the Older guy's that start to have a trouble at the airfield .. they tended to end up going to the Indoor local Gym and do flying there with small indoor foamys like hte park zone champ yada yada ... some times they still come out with a trainer or a cub or something but vary often they don't fly ... now this isnt evey single one of them .. matter of fact i still buddy box with a guy in his 80's i take him up he does his thing and i land him .. he loves sig four stars easy sports big sticks ....he's one heck of a nice guy and flys vary well .. he probably could land but it stress'es him .. so he perfers the buddy box .. and we have more then anough pepole to main the box around the club
Last edited by zacharyR; 09-18-2013 at 08:01 AM.
09-18-2013, 08:55 AM
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It strikes me that the "transition" modifications being suggested are increasingly closer to existing designs. A Falcon or a Stick (changing the foil) would do the trick or even better a 4*. Semi-symmetric, light, fast frame up yet still easy to fly but aerobatic if wanted.
A really interesting wing planform and airfoil for the desired craft is that of the Side Pocket. I think this last design would fit the bill on all fronts yielding a model with classic pattern looks.
Naturally, they don't look or fly like a Tipo but they are "slow pattern" craft. I feel that getting a Tipo to fly like a Kadet, or vice versa, is somewhat counterproductive. Akin to getting a Spitfire or Mustang to fly like a Texan... Those planes were purpose designed as are the models. Seeing a Tipo fly like a Kadet would be most displeasing. A seasoned pilot would look at it and say something's wrong.
Yes, the more I think about it the more the Side Pocket sounds like the way to go - very clever wing along with a "slow stab".
David
A really interesting wing planform and airfoil for the desired craft is that of the Side Pocket. I think this last design would fit the bill on all fronts yielding a model with classic pattern looks.
Naturally, they don't look or fly like a Tipo but they are "slow pattern" craft. I feel that getting a Tipo to fly like a Kadet, or vice versa, is somewhat counterproductive. Akin to getting a Spitfire or Mustang to fly like a Texan... Those planes were purpose designed as are the models. Seeing a Tipo fly like a Kadet would be most displeasing. A seasoned pilot would look at it and say something's wrong.
Yes, the more I think about it the more the Side Pocket sounds like the way to go - very clever wing along with a "slow stab".
David
Last edited by mrshea; 09-18-2013 at 08:57 AM.
09-18-2013, 09:24 AM
#19
James,
I believe that Taurus, daddy rabbit and Kaos will be good choices, their airfoil is thick enough to reduce speed, the CG Falcon might be a good suggestion too.
but the other plane you can pick is a Great Planes Easy Sport MKII, it's not a pattern ship it's a sport plane but looks like it's older family members which were all considered patternships at their time, you can consider it the Falcon's grand son
. Easy Sport has plenty of wing area and if you take its kit instead of ARF you will be able to build a lighter bird in comparison to the ARF one. Its gliding behaviour is very good. I have tested several very low speed touch and go only on the main gears, with a little front wind you can prevent nose wheel from touching the ground by elevator, if you finish it up to 2400gr it'll behave like a trainer plane.
Ehsan
I believe that Taurus, daddy rabbit and Kaos will be good choices, their airfoil is thick enough to reduce speed, the CG Falcon might be a good suggestion too.
but the other plane you can pick is a Great Planes Easy Sport MKII, it's not a pattern ship it's a sport plane but looks like it's older family members which were all considered patternships at their time, you can consider it the Falcon's grand son
. Easy Sport has plenty of wing area and if you take its kit instead of ARF you will be able to build a lighter bird in comparison to the ARF one. Its gliding behaviour is very good. I have tested several very low speed touch and go only on the main gears, with a little front wind you can prevent nose wheel from touching the ground by elevator, if you finish it up to 2400gr it'll behave like a trainer plane.Ehsan
09-18-2013, 09:42 AM
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Hey Phil,
what I meant by a "slow stab" is that it is a lifting diamond airfoiled stab (slow is not a bad thing). This should make it a little "softer" in response to controls. The SP was specifically designed as a pattern trainer and uses a continuously variable airfoil. As you know, the root is semi-symmetric with a max thickness somewhere in the 40-50% of the foil. This moves to ~30% fully symmetric at the tip. According to the designer this wing should be very forgiving and allow good low speed handling in flight. Part of the problem with the original plans is that the foils are inaccurate and length incorrect. Brian just offered to send me some info so that we can fix this (I think it's mostly done but could use some cross-checking).
I forget what engine you have in yours but the model should handle well at ~30% throttle on a 40. Naturally with a 46 or 50 it will move out but the model was designed for a K&B 40 (or similar) so it should offer good handling with such an engine if built to 4.5-5 lbs.
I'm inclined to having a foam core wing cut for it as it would best represent the airfoil the designer had in mind.
David
PS I'm glad to hear you are enjoying your SP.
what I meant by a "slow stab" is that it is a lifting diamond airfoiled stab (slow is not a bad thing). This should make it a little "softer" in response to controls. The SP was specifically designed as a pattern trainer and uses a continuously variable airfoil. As you know, the root is semi-symmetric with a max thickness somewhere in the 40-50% of the foil. This moves to ~30% fully symmetric at the tip. According to the designer this wing should be very forgiving and allow good low speed handling in flight. Part of the problem with the original plans is that the foils are inaccurate and length incorrect. Brian just offered to send me some info so that we can fix this (I think it's mostly done but could use some cross-checking).
I forget what engine you have in yours but the model should handle well at ~30% throttle on a 40. Naturally with a 46 or 50 it will move out but the model was designed for a K&B 40 (or similar) so it should offer good handling with such an engine if built to 4.5-5 lbs.
I'm inclined to having a foam core wing cut for it as it would best represent the airfoil the designer had in mind.
David
PS I'm glad to hear you are enjoying your SP.
09-18-2013, 10:20 AM
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""Are there any old designs that were not rocket ships? Or can the old desogns be
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?"""= KAOS ? The old pattern plane ??
made to fly slower by building lighter and thickening the wings?"""= KAOS ? The old pattern plane ??
09-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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maybe i dont' understand
to me the OB is asking for other aircraft that are slow easyer flyers.. and he gae a kadet as a base line.. i just seeing alot pepoel respond with polar oppsets .. am I in the wrong here ?
to me the OB is asking for other aircraft that are slow easyer flyers.. and he gae a kadet as a base line.. i just seeing alot pepoel respond with polar oppsets .. am I in the wrong here ?
09-18-2013, 01:21 PM
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I was going to post earlier in the thread but got side tracked on the table/chart. I had to go through all those plans and measure the cords of the wings from the side views.
I'll include the XLT and Escape but I do not have the Great Escape plans. I would need the length of the cord of the wing at the fuse side including ailerons and its height at the thickest part of the wing.
Wouldn't be cool to have a Spreadsheet or a table of the all the specs for these style of planes?
It occurs to me that I read somewhere about a plane that would fit the bill for what James is asking for. I have to go back and dig thru my RCM mags.
Bryan
09-18-2013, 01:32 PM
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the OP was actually inquiring about pattern type aircraft such as the Tiporare and Curare - that was really his baseline. He just wants to be able to fly them at the speed of a Kadet. He wasn't really inquiring about other slow Kadet like trainer aircraft which are abundant.
At least that's my read on it.
David