rodders

Hello all,
In the absence of any Arrow kits, has anyone built an Arrow from a set of MK plans? I've seen the MK plans available, to both buy and download. There is certainly not many kits left out there!

I assume that there would be the odd part that you would have to reverse engineer, but is it doable? I'm reasonably good at building and can cut my own tail/wing cores if needed.

Equally if someone has a MK kit that they would like to sell to a builder, and not a collector let me know.

Regards,
Rodders

doxilia

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It is possible to reverse engineer the plans and I've done it. However, only for the MK Arrow 40. The 60 is a little more work but not hugely so.

It's worth mentioning that glass/foam builders kits are also available and molded from the original MK kit.

David

flywilly

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The Arrow is a pretty simple airplane, but the MK plans don't show all the individual parts. Model Airplane News published plans for the Arrow 60 and I believe they are still available. I bet there are plans available from your side of the pond, too. I know R/CME (a British magazine) published the Aurora 60 plans which I've always wanted a copy of. The MAN Arrow plans show a foam wing and stab with respective root and tip templates. If you wanted to build all wood flying surfaces like the MK kit, then a bit of CAD work would be required. I built 2 Arrows from the MAN plans back around 1980, a very easy build especially since I was able to buy the fiberglass 'canopy' from Indy R/C (the US distributor for MK).
-Will

doxilia

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Will is right on the plans situation. I know that RCM/E also published plans but compared to the MK plans they are somewhat "blocky". Much of the design makes use of quite substantial block of balsa which are then essentially carved mostly away. The MK design was typically Japanese and used a slightly more sophisticated approach. The trickiest part of a reproduction would be producing a nciely matching canopy/pipe tunnel section which wants to be made of fiberglass to simplify the construction. Matt's original made use of a literal pipe tube made from thin aluminum and a carved balsa top - a hybrid approach which would be quite labor intensive to reproduce.

CAD work would make any approach much easier and lighter in my opinion. I took liberties with the 40 size MK re-design to make it lighter yet - not hard considering that even these wonderful kits were designed 30+ years ago...

As far as I know all plans (and the MK kit) made use of a plug-in type stab. The MK kit came with the required mechanism to be built into the framed up balsa stab.

using foam core surfaces seems like the preferable and easier route today for a good wing and stab. Part of the rear deck (aft third part behind the pipe tunnel) could likely also be made with a balsa skinned foam core but the section is small and just as easy to skin formers with 3/32" (or 2 mm) balsa.

David

GuilhermeMZE

Hi Rodders,
I have an original kit from MK (arrow 60).
If you want, I can draw the main parts and send you. Make a copy of the plant as well.
I just need some time for this, ok?
Anything send me a private message.
I hope I can help.
Regards

Jim_Purcha

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http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/produc...3/rc1387-arrow

doxilia

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Yup, that looks like the RCM&E plan Jim.

rodders

Doxila,
I certainly think its worth mentioning a moulded model. I have tried contacting the Hobby Barn (I'm not sure if they do the Arrow, or know who else would do one) to ask if they had any Arrow's and didn't get a response. Pretty disappointing, but some firms just don't respond to emails. I could try again I suppose.

For sure, my number one option would be get a nice fibre glass fuselage and either buying or make my own wings. If you have any further info a moulded fuselage, I would be more than grateful.


Many thanks to Guilherme for the kind offer, I may take you up on this offer if I decide to go down the plan route, as I think the MK plans just look better.

I have discounted the RCM@E plans, as I have the 1980 RCM@E magazine article which shows a small scale reproduction of the plans. As already mentioned they appear to be just a case of gluing some large blocks of balsa wood together and carving out an Arrow shape.

Regards,
Rodders

doxilia

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Rodders,

yes, email won't work with HB. You need to contact Rob first by telephone and possibly, second, by PM via his RCU handle (hdrflite). He has two or three threads going (where you'll find his contacts) on the forum with the build of a Super Curare and a Magic. In those threads there are also pictures of several molds and glass fuses of the models they are able to produce including both the MK Arrow design known as the Super Arrow (at HB) and what we have discovered to be Matt's Granat which is known at HB as the Arrow 800 (due to its wing area). The latter has a fully "decked" pipe tunnel running down the length of the fuse with cooling exits carved into the fuse (rather than protruding in style like in Hanno's Magic - otherwise similar in concept). It is a slightly larger Arrow too with more wing and fuse length. The fuses come with wing/stab cores so they are technically composite short or standard kits.

I have been wanting to get one or two of these Arrow kits myself but Rob was busy at the time and I haven't followed up since. If you get in touch with him, please post here and let me know what the status is with Arrow kits and whether he could layup 3 or 4 kits to be shipped to the UK and Canada. My only concern is that they picked up some young talent to keep up with the demand and apparently the layups have suffered somewhat. We should be able to address this with Rob and, if necessary, say that we are willing to pay a touch more (again, if necessary) for nice layups done by himself which I understand are outstanding.

Another option is with Don at rcaiir.com who also has an Arrow glass/foam kit as well. I believe this is a mold made from the classic MK kit build so it should match it well. It comes with three glass pieces I believe - the main fuse with integral pipe floor, the pipe deck and a belly pan. The details would need to be confirmed with Don.

I'm personally interested in the HB kits because I'm primarily interested in the A800 version and they are the only one's I know of offering such a kit. That said, I'd likely also order a SA at the same time as the A800 in order to take advantage of the shipping which shouldn't be much more for two kits than for a single one.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you want to ouch base "off forum", so to speak.

I hope this helps.

David

doxilia

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Here's their website with contacts:

http://www.hobbybarn.com/

The SC thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/clas...er-curare.html

And the Magic thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/clas...742-magic.html

David

MTK

Hey Dave, are you sure the Arrow 800 has a longer fuse? It seemed to me that they kept fuse dimensions unchanged and only cranked up the wing area. I don't think they changed any other surfaces. If indeed the A800 has a longer fuse, I am interested too. It would be great to fly a crate with retracts again. But I admit I am not fond of the screeching 60's of yesteryear. My ears hurt. And trust me I get the fact that it is music to some. I s'pose it used to be to me 2.

I'd want to use something like a YS115-120 or similar quiet set-up, soft mounted.

pitstop000

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I talk to Rob at Hobby Barn on a pretty regular basis. We talked just yesterday and I’ll be talking to him next week to finalize some business.

That said Rodders/David phone is the only way to get to him. He’s just about always there and if not he calls right back. The number to reach him is at

1-520-747-3633

I’d forget the e-mail/PM route since even mine go unanswered and we just resort to phone calls. I had joked about it with him in the beginning but realized even if he responded it was in short fashion. It’s just the way it is with Rob probably because he hates to type. (I’m in the same boat I guess) I don’t blame him because responding to e-mails can become a full time job occupyinga lot of time.

The issue with some layups that some had to deal with has been taken care of as far as I was told since Rob is doing the work again which by the way is outstanding.

I have received one Arrow 800 that Rob did personally and the glass work rivaled what you get in the jet model kit sector of the hobby. If all goes well I should be receiving another two 800’s, one of which is already to go and one that he’s doing the layup as we speak. He also told me one of my Super Arrows is done and one of the other two that I ordered will also be going out in the same shipment.

doxilia

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Paul,

sounds like it's time to get a hold of him again.

Would you mind posting some snaps of the ones he's sent you already? I recall that you had posted them in another thread (or perhaps email).

Also, please confirm for Matt whether the A800 is longer than the SA.

Thanks, David

dhal22

Arrow on the bay 4 sale. 40 size.

David

pitstop000

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Hey David,
That's the wrong website! and name.
It's just "Hobby Barn" in Tucson AZ
http://www.hobbybarn.com

pitstop000

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Hey David,
That's the wrong website! and name.
It's just "Hobby Barn" in Tucson AZ
http://www.hobbybarn.com

doxilia

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Dang!

Thanks Paul. Moved a little too fast I guess. I should have noticed the address was in Alabama...

Fixed above.

David

doxilia

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Rod,

PM replied to. We can continue via email if you like.

David

doxilia

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Matt, actually no, I'm not sure. But I think it is if just slightly. What is longer for sure is the pipe deck which is really more of a removable integral part of the fuse - a bit like the Magic. If memory serves, Matt was transitioning to long strokes with this model and needed a longer pipe length. I think the Arrow800/Granat was sort of born a bit out of the Magic concept but Matt kept the engine upright.

There are pictures of the two molds and fuses somewhere on the forums. Rob wasn't very specific in where he posted this stuff so unfortunately there isn't a HB Arrow thread with assorted pictures. Either way, both the SA and the A800 are very nice molds and fuses from what I've seen.

I'm primarily interested in the A800 too (whether longer or not). It sounds like there may be three of us wanting Arrow kits. Maybe we can get Rob on the job for all these at once for better time efficiency and attention to the layups. Are you in!?

It's a small world Matt... Want to know where your latest YS 61-R LS is? It's down stairs in my shop I bought Sean's Dalotel scratch build and he sent it to me with engine and pipe. He did a great job on the model build and I have yet to get back to him to comment on that. The engine is fine too with the new bearings. I may just try to locate a new head to clean it up a tad even though they seem to enjoy sanding the ground when mounted inverted in conventional gear models... I hope to paint it in the Spring but I first have to get a plug-in stab setup as he had to cut off the stabs for transport. I'm actually happier with a plug-in stab setup since the wings are also plug-in. Say, are the front stab adjustors which grip on to a small 1/8" rod with two small grub screws sufficient to hold the stabs on or is a grip on the main CF tube also needed? I'd rather avoid holes on the underside of the stab at the 11 mm tube level if the two root incidence screws are enough.

Sounds heavy for the A800 but I'm sure it would render it an excellent performer! What about a vintage 4s YS90 - same weight? Then again, I'm sure you can build it pretty light. Would you pipe those 4 strokes?

I wonder how an Arrow 40 would do with a YS70 4-stroke.

David

pitstop000

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David, if you want an Arrow I’d advise you to get on the list.

The wait has been very long for my order. PM / email me if you need more info on this.

Yes the 800 is longer but just by an inch or so.

Pic of the 800 fuse below.

doxilia

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Paul,

I think I've been on the list for over a year... December 2012 if I remember correctly.

Rob and I had a long chat and I asked him to put one together for me. It was going to be more than a basic kit. He said it would happen but not right away.

I guess I just have to spend more time on the horn with Rob and co.

So how may Arrow's in your stash now? I think I'll just have to drive down and pick one up from you.

David

flywilly

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www.matt-rc.li
Granat Span= 170cm
length= 158cm

pitstop000

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Hey David come on down and I’ll give you one, but you’ll have to help me set up my new work shop Ha ha Lol

doxilia

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Thanks Will,

was feeling lazy to check it out...

MK Arrow/Super Arrow:

Length = 55" (1400 mm)
Span = 63" (1600 mm)
Area: 705 sq in (45.5 dm^2)
Power: Short Stroke 60 (Webra Racing Black Head RE)

Granat:

Length = 62.2" (1580 mm)
Span = 67" (1700 mm)
Area: 800+ sq in (52+ dm^2)?
Power: Long Stroke 60 (Webra Racing Silver Band RE)

Arrow 800:

Length = 56"? (1422? mm)
Span = 64"? (1625? mm)
Length = 800 sq in (51.6 dm^2)
Power: Long Stroke 60 (Webra Racing Silver Band RE)

Area on the Granat is unclear but likely 800 or more squares given the span.

Paul are you able to confirm/deny these specs for the A800? Just to have a good reference of comparison. Also, is the thrust line in the A800 different from the SA? In other words, do Speed 13's for example need different rise headers for each model? Is the standard header enough offset or is the taller one needed? It's ncie when the header enters the tunnel vlose to the fuse rather than in mid air.

David

doxilia

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That's cool - no problem. It's always good to have a helping hand when doing these things. Heck, even when setting up models! Nothing like two lines of sight.

I used to get my dad to lend a hand when needed but unfortunately he's now 3000 miles away as of 28 years ago... I'm going to try and bend his 78 year old arm to come back up in the late Spring (I've managed to get him and family up here early March for some fun in the snow - first skiing trip with my dad really) to help me build an 8'x4' work bench. he can still wield a drill and saw and despite his belief in the "old ways" when it comes to tools - he too has discovered the pleasures of power tools. He bought a Dremel not so long ago.

I must have done something wrong though - he became a train modeller. And industrious he is. Had a new house built with the train room as the gravitas of the building. Everything revolved around that room. The train installation is all modular so that one day, it can all be disassembled and setup across continents. It will all be left in the hands of my son I'm told.

But I digress... so an Arrow for a drill in hand. Hmm... not bad, maybe we can build a pair in your new shop while we're at it!

David