Kurt P

Hello,

I’m not sure where to post my questions but I guess in this section.
I read so many good comments on the KAOS, that I’m getting warm to build one. I already have the plans.
No I got some questions about the flight characteristics.
*Can it do knife edge? It seems to me that the fuselage doesn’t have so much “side area”.
*Is it a fast plane (with a standard .60)
*What is the vertical performance with a .60?

chipper11077

My Feedback: (49)

I have flown 2 different Kaos's and both have been a dream to fly... They will do any pattern type maneuver you can think of including knife edge flight. They are a very versatile aircraft as far as performance... it will fly fast with a hot .60 at full throttle or can almost be a low wing trainer flying mild at low throttle. Verticle performance is very strong on both a .60 2 stroke or a .90 4 stroke. VERY nice planes and a lot of fun.... you will enjoy it. Let me know if you have other questions.

Scott

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Now that you have a good POV on a Kaos, let me tell you it's drawbacks.

First, you have to build it light. If you have a kit, it will be a little on the heavy side. A kit that size pays little attention to wood weight, so don't go crazy with it. Sand sand sand, and use glue wisely. If it's heavy, it'll tip stall fairly easy when you slow it down. You'll have to land it like an F-104.

Secondly, it doesn't have a lot of rudder authority. It's adequate for sport flying I suppose, but wouldn't take you much past sportsman in pattern.

It requires a good bit of mixing to the rudder, which most non pattern planes do. it will do knife edge, but it's work. The side area isn't quite enough for me.

It WILL snap and spin nicely, and tracks ok if you keep the speed up and have the engine thrust correct. If you build it by the plans, you'll have to tweak the thrust. It was made to fly fast, so fly it fast.

It has flat tail surfaces, which makes it a little geeky to lock in and fly straight. Again, speed and power are your friends.

Vertical with a 60 with which size Kaos? The 40 or 60 size? With a 60 on a 40 size, it'll be plenty...we're talking rocket. A 60 on a 60 size, it depends on the particular 60 and how much it weighs. Any rolls in the vertical and it'll choke fairly quickly.

Now take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm a self admitted plane snob, I'm as picky as they come. You won't have any problem finding people that tell you how great this plane flies, and they're right, compared to the average sport plane. So if you're just looking for a sport plane to bore holes in the sky with, then a Kaos can't be beat. If you're looking for any more than that, keep looking, a CA Widebody 60 would kick it's tail in every department and isn't that much more expensive. The Kaos is an OLD design, and flies like it.

I've had quite a few of them, and wasn't unhappy with any of them until I began flying pattern, in which case it only took me a week before I said to myself "this sucks, I need a better plane! Those old guys were full of it!" (I'm 37 BTW, not a kiddie )

So, I may be the only one to say it's not all that and a bag of chips, because everyone has been saying "a Kaos is great" for so long it's like a mantra or something. Times change, designs improve, and it's dated. I suppose to some people an old converted high wing free flight drone from the 30s flies good too, but that doesn't mean I want one

-Mike

Kurt P

Thank you for the advice,
I’m looking for an easy build sports plane, which can do a little more. So it’s not for competition. But I like to fly 4 point rolls, slow-rolls and knife-edge, to learn to use the rudder better.
I was thinking to modify the design a little, a symmetrical airfoil for the stab and increase the side area by adding a turtle deck or something like that. Maybe something like the Sig cougar. I’m not sure yet.
I intend to build the 60 size with a OS 61FS.
That it needs some “steering” to keep it on track in knife edge is not so bad (I’m used to it with my other planes), my concern is the side area and the efficiency of the rudder to keep the plane at level and not going down.
I’m going to build it from a plan so I can choose the wood.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

Ditto to what Mike said , it was a great plane in its day but its past its prime.
There are so many good airplanes available today why limit yourself with an old
design.

tommy s

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

OS 61FS as in 4 stroke? No way, not on a 60 size. It'll fly, but it'll be a slug. 91 at least. if you're talking older 2 stroke, then yeah if it's light. Forgive me I forget the nomenclature of the older engines.

If that's all you want to do with it, then it's ok if you just gotta have one. You'll have to fly extremely fast in knife edge, or it'll drop like a rock. With all those modifications you're talking about, you wouldn't really have a Kaos anymore. So why mess with it?

But that's just my opinion, the straight answer is it'll be ok if that's really what you want.

-Mike

martinoto

I would like to scratch build a Kaos also, can anybody explain the differences between all the Kaos models? (Super, Ultimate, Utter, Killer, etc). I thing on getting the RCM plans, any better idea?
Thanks a million

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I guess everyone has a different impression of speed. I found the Kaos 60 pretty slow compared to other pattern aircraft of the day and I think it lands like a trainer. Never had any problems with them tip stalling but they did spin well when asked to. It has a very, very thick wing airfoil but flies very well. I prefer the taper wing Kwik Fli with tri gear retracts over the Kaos for performance and eye appeal. One very big plus for all of the older pattern designs, Kwik Fli, Kaos, Mach I, Tipo, etc. is that they were all designed with tri gear and most will easily take tri gear retracts. Back in those days they actually scored take off, landing pattern, landings and procedure stop. That level of scoring certainly separated the men from the boys! I always found it interesting how some of the so called “hot pilots” lost important points on botched landings!

Sticking with my 70s and 80s aircraft and enjoying every minute!

Kurt P

@ Mike
Sorry, my mistake, it's a OS.60 SF 2-stroke, the one before the FX-types came out.
well, what you wrote about knife edge performance is what I expect from seeing the plans. But on this forum I read several times that a kaos can do every pattern figure without any problem (for me this includes knife edge and other figures where the rudder must be used). So this is not. Maybe I have to look for something different. The Kaos just got my attention because it's such a simple design so it would be easy to build.

@8178
I have also a plan of a kwik fli,... but it seems to me that a Kaos has a tapered wing and a Kwik fli not. correct me if I'm wrong.

roadztr

I flew a Super Kaos from 1974 - 1980. I still have it in fact. It is a great flying plane but I have to agree that it is outdated by many other planes that can outfly it now. With that said it's still one of my favorites. I had a S.T. Blue Head .61 in it which made it seem like a rocket. The landings were always greasers!. I wore the tread off the DuBro wheels

The differences - First there was the Kaos designed by Joe Bridi. slab sided, tapered wing, engine not cowled. It flew well. The Super Kaos was a refinement of the first. It featured rounded corners, wing fillet fairings, a cowled ine engine, shorter wings, and retracts. Both of these and the 40 size versions were Mfg by Bridi and later sold to Great Planes. The Utter Kaos was another Bridi design but it was sold by another company - I think Hobby Shak. Basically the same as the Super but with diferent wingtips adn tail feathers. The rest of the Kaos versions were mods done by others.

If you build the Super, you will notice the famous Kaos wiggle at high speed. It never bothered anything but when you got it, you knew you were going too fast! I once lost the Vertical stab in a mid air and was able to get it back by keeping the speed way up until landing.

Do build it light.

martinoto

Roadztr. thanks, it was very helpfull.
My first plane was a Bridi Trainer (the small one). Several years later I build the big one from the RCM plans. I always admired Joe Bridi designs, although I find them a little on the heavy side if you build them strictly by the plan.
I understand tha the Kaos should be out dated, but everywhere I look for information it said the same: out dated, but still flying and enjoyable.
Since it seems no kit could be found in Argentina, where I live, I am going to get the plans from RCM, probably the twon of them (Kaos and Super Kaos) and make a mix. Do you think it make sense?
Thanks again.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

The Kaos would only be competitive today in pattern in Sportsman class ,
but if you're just wanting a sport airplane to just have fun with it's very good
as it has no bad habits. The "Super Kaos" has a shorter tail moment than the
original so it does , like the Kwik-Fli , have the tail wiggle at high speed. If I
were building one I would build the original design , it's easier to build and in
my opinion flies smoother because it's a little longer. I had two regular Kaos , one
Killer Kaos, and three original designs with Kaos wings and they all flew good.

tommy s

martinoto

Tommy, thanks.
Sport flying purposes, maybe some basic competition. But mainly my big respect to Mr. Bridi, kind of a tribute.
By the way, what are the differences on the Killer?
Regards

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

The Killer , Utter, etc. were marketed after Joe Bridi sold the rights to the original design
so there had to be some subtle design and name changes (Chaos), different shaped rudder ,
canopy etc. but they all flew good because most of the original design elements were
still there. When the original Kaos first came out there were no ARFs and it could take a
few months to build a pattern plane but the Kaos could be built in a few weeks , good simple
design that flew good.
If you build one try to keep it light.

tommy s

Zippi

My Feedback: (10)

The old Joe Bride kits are still available from Bluejay Airplane Kits.
http://www.bridiairplanes.com/crew/
I flew the Chaos, Super Chaos, Killer Chaos 60, and a somewhat modified Choas. I call these planes the !QUOT!Poor Mans Pattern Plane!QUOT!. At $85.00 for the Killer Chaos 60 is really cheap verses a few hundred $$$ for an up to date pattern plane. All of these planes fly very well doing knife edge, 4-point rolls, etc. I'd say that it all depends on if you want to spend the time building or put out the big bucks on an ARF or AFC. Everyone in this forum can tell you what the planes will do and wont do but until you put one together and fly it yourself Will you be able to form your own opinion. I have been out of the hobby for over 12 years and just got back into it and my first plane was a Great Planes U-CAN-DO .46. Beautiful flying plane but my next plane will be the !QUOT!Joe Bride Killer Chaos 60!QUOT!

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Built from RCM plans last winter. 5 1/2 pounds Saito 91S it all adds up to fun. I used an oversized canopy to help knife edge. This is my fifth and lightest (original) Kaos. I built and flew the one previous to this in 1975. I'll use a foam wing on the next one I build. Why? Because cutting out the ribs is a pain and at 5 1/2 pounds I can afford the weight gain of a foam wing. The modern vs. old debate has been going on about the Kaos since the 70's. In the 70's people flying Mach 1's, Sweatators, T2A's, Cutlasses etc said the same thing about it being dated. Don't listen to it, its a bunch of rubbish. Build one and fly the pants off it. Old design or not, its a great flying airplane and it's hard to get more bang for the buck.

http://barks.us/gallery.php?ParentID=80&Position=2

cltom

I kind of agree that the "old is no good" philosophy is crap. It seems like when I was growing up, Pattern was defined by those who could afford it. Now that many of us can afford what was flown in the 70's and 80's, now it's no good. Sorry, but my dream is to have a pattern plane with retracts that I watched for 20 yrs, but could never afford.

I'm very inexperienced in RC. Except, I'm very experienced with similar arguments in Control Line stunt - where the Vintage competition now outnumbers the up-to-date ones.

As far as the Kaos, it seems a wonderfully straightforward design. The weight issues are probably the result of over-bred puppy mills - a lack of attention to quality, and shortcuts that have developed over years of over-production.

In my own opinion, the Dirty Birdy or U.F.O. (there's also a Model Aviation 40-sized Alpha) are much prettier planes. They were the natural progression in Bridi's designs, and all addressed the shortcomings listed above. Yet, they are no more complicated to build. RCM has the plans and will send reprints of the construction articles, too.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

It's old, it's outdated, it flies like it. You guys have a different opinion of what flies good than I do, and that's that.

It flies like a 30 year old design. If you like flying things like that then great. That's why SPA is out there.

But today, Sep 24 2004, it's old and it flies like it. All I've heard for 30 years is how good the Kaos flies. I had 4, and I liked them all at the time. Now, I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me. A UFO is another story, I have one on my wall that's signed on the wing by Joe Bridi, and it has Kraft electric retracts and still works. I love that plane, even though I need to sell it. But a Kaos? Sorry, it goes in the same category with an Ultra Sport, and really doesn't even fly THAT good. It's a sport plane in 2004, or an SPA plane, and that's all.

I guess some people would put wings on a turd and fly that too, but it doesn't mean I want one. Give me a Dirty Birdy, UFO, Great Escape, fine...not a Kaos, it's an inferior plane.

-Mike

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I don't think anyone said the old Kaos is "no good" , it's just a dated design and
there are so many newer designs that fly better for around the same money. If
you fly a Kaos and then something such as a Widebody 60 you'll see there is no
comparison. BUT , I think everyone should fly whatever they like .

tommy s

8178

My Feedback: (17)

IMHO I think it is unfortunate that all the new pattern aircraft designs of today look like variants of the Lanier Stinger. And the Lanier Stinger isn’t very new but they say for an old design it flies pretty well!

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Oh, I see the problem now. You may need glasses

-Mike

MHester

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BTW, they say for an old design, the Sopwith Camel flies pretty well too.

But it's old and outdated.



-Mike

LaCerne

My Feedback: (16)

For those who are so offended by people who like the Kaos... Don't buy one!

baronbrian

My Feedback: (13)

I Still have a Ultimate Kaos, with a Super Tigre .90G. With Std BB servos, and a 13x8 prop it is a super fun plane. It would be perfect for learning four points, slow rolls. It does knife edge circles, but it wont climb in Knife Edge. Comes in nicely for landing. It's only real drawback is it has a hard time spinning. (sometimes it won't even break for a positive snap.) I think It is because of the blunt thick wing, not a cg issue. I replaced the plane with a Widebody .60 and a .91fx, and I like it better, but the plane does not provide the gentle learning curve of the Kaos. IMO, the Ultimate Kaos will get you through intermediate, but it was one of the most recent of all the Kaos'.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I have never in my life seen any version of a Kaos that remotely
resembles a Stinger !!!!

tommy s