humptybump

I keep hearing about the want for loud.....screaming.....retract equipt. planes......You know...The 105DB piped stuff that KILLS flying sites.

Gentlemen...........................As my good buddy Steve B. posted.........Join the SPA.....Try it....It's a BLAST.......I travel 500 to 800 miles to contests from Central Va. and it has always been fun. Even my wife likes SPA contests.....I am not kidding.

Go to the SPA website and read the rules.....It ain't all 4-strokes if that is not your bag.....You CAN fly a P8 at 120 mph if you want......You don't need a tuned pipe to do that today. It isn't just the plane......It's the guy on the sticks that wins.

The reason the OS .91 Surpass is so popular with SPA is because it is quiet(er) and it is better in the verticles. The POWER of a good running 4-Stroke is still under estimated. Go to a contest.......you will see both 4S and 2S engines. My OS 91 FS Daddy Rabbit ain't slow......It HAULS....., and flys like you wouldn't believe.

I have a very good friend in Ala. that flew his Daddy Rabbit in AMA Advanced and BEAT most of his competition flying modern 2M planes.....You know those guys were SICK to see that.....I still laugh about it.

If you REALLY like the old non-turn around stuff................Join the SPA and BECOME a voting member. and...If you live in Va. , NC , MD...?...........e-mail [email protected]'d love to get you started again.......John

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Daddy Rabbits Daddy Rabbits how about a well constructed Ron Cidgey Tiger Tail. It seems I'm about the only one flying one or two if you count my 80's Cidgey designed Tiger Tail IV;by the way if any one out there has the Tiger Tail IV as produced by Cajun RC (PLEASE)LET ME KNOW. Back to the Daddy Rabbit It must be good................

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

I'm also an SPA member in good standing and will also continue to support the Senior Pattern Association I feel, as Steve Byrum suggested to me,that being to start a "spark plug" in the Md. D.C. Virginia areas and organize type S.P.A. contests in our region,what do you all think. I'll bet we have enough interested vintage pattern flyer's. Not to mention the later style pattern birds providing they meet regional noise limits![sm=sunsmiley.gif]

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

There are plenty of pattern contests around the whole country that could combime SPA into a regular contest. Say that we have 25 guys flying 2 meter and 8 or so of them would bring a vintage plane and fly a few rounds of that also. This would be a good way to bring the SPA to other parts of the country. If it grew it would warrent it's own stand alone contests. It'll have to start slow like this in the midwest because it needs exposure. Mike

humptybump

Combining SPA and AMA would be nice. The problem i see (as a CD) is the fact that the number of rounds for the AMA portion would most likely have to be short to accomodate the SPA rounds. Some pilots may like that , but several will not make the trip causing a low turn out.

Generally....A contest with 25 or more pilots takes a complete day on Sat. and at least 1/2 day on Sun. to get in 6 rounds. If..... the weather is perfect , the sun is not a problem in the AM , everything is well organized early in the AM , and the contestants get to the field before 8:30 etc etc.

A Tiger Tail would be great. It's not all Daddy Rabbits. I've seen Intruders , Compensators , King Altair (Very cool plane and Big) , Miss Norway , Taurus , Sun Fli's , Kaos's.....all kinds of planes.

Since SPA has been around for about 11 to 12 years now , i think there may be an upgrade in approved models for the future. I'm not sure on this, but it may happen.
For instance.....Maybe adding 1976 thru 1980 designs. Something like that will be a big decision. SPA is very competitive , but a little more laid back than AMA in my eyes. Believe me.....If something like that happens......Everybody will be building and testing new planes and it will be an expense to stay competitive....Just like AMA. The idea of SPA is to keep things simple and CHEAP(er).

I had a nice talk with Mickey Walker (founder of the SPA) at "Hotlanta" this past July. His original idea was to be able to be competitive with a Kaos sporting a standard .60 and a basic 4 channel radio. It did start out that way , but competition is competition and everybody always looks for an edge....Hence....the hunting for the best flying plane with as much power as is legal , and most of the radios are 7-8 channel computer ard up. So.....now you got fast , smooth ,dialed in planes with top of the line servos and unlimited electronic mixing to be competitive. It wasn't like that back in the 60's and early 70's.

I think if the floodgates are opened that the cost of an SPA plane will be almost as high as a current 2-meter. So the idea of simple and inexpensive is out the door IMHO........But hey......Those are just my personal thoughts and not necessarily that of the SPA organization..........................J

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

I agree that mixing may not always work but there atre plenty of under attended AMA events and this would possibly spice things up a bit.
The thing that I don't understand is how would a post 76 plane cost more if the rules on engines were to stay the same.
Had to mention 1 other thing I remember the King Altar, the engines back then were underpowered for the big frame but I'll bet it's a great plane with a YS 91 on it.
Mike

humptybump

Mike.....My thoughts on the cost increase included epoxyglass kits with retracts. 99% of the planes that are flown now are all wood w/foam wings. Simple and cheap to build. Even the World Models A6 Intruder ARF is inexpensive. You can build a Rabbit for about $100 excluding the radio and engine.

An epoxyglass EU1 A (basic kit w/o wood) would probably run $400. Then add wood , retracts , etc etc , and you've spent $600 or more before you started building. That's what i was thinking with the increased cost comment.

The King Altair is not too bad with a strong OS .91FS. It really needs a 120. It was way ahead of it's time. I have a new set of plans that i keep looking at for a future project. Need a bunch of light wood for that bird. Lots of carving and sanding.

Have a great weekend.....................John

spbyrum

Too bad Astropuppy, Mach I has been legal for years. I've had guys ask for MachII plans (also legal) but no one seems to be able to come up with a set.

Chicagp?!?!? Do they fly pattern there? Bruce might just have some fun with Yankees that can really fly.

Put skis on the Rabbit yet??

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Steve as I remember there never was a production model of the Mach 2. Norm Page designed it and didn't like the way it flew. It was a swept wing version. He said it was bad so that was the end of that deal. I know these things because I was sort of Norms protege. The plane after that was the Mach 3. It had a fat wing and had a relativly short 58" WS. I flew that plane at the 75 Masters in Huntsville and it was a good plane but only a few were ever built. Norm pretty much gave it up shortly after that. He really left his mark on pattern in the 70's. He was in his time simply the best! Mike

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

See Steve, I may live in the land of ID, but the pattern part of me still lives in Chicago cica 1973. I would love to see Bruce fly aganist Mike. That would be a hoot. Especially, if Mike where flying a Mach I.

Not sure of the particulars but I believe a southern design (Tiger Tail?) won the Lake Charles Nationals in the early 70's. As a kid I remember many a conversation taking place in Chicago about why the Mach I was a better plane. I think Mike will agree, back then, Mr. Page (as I called him) was sort of a local hero for his Mach I design as Ed Kazmirski was before him with the Taurus.

There ya go Mike. Start a Yankee SPA group. SPA patterns and only allow planes designed north of the Maison Dixon line. Very Very Big Grin. I'll keep my Rabbit, thank you. I do have Mach I plans and have threaten to build one more then once.

Maybe in Alabama they put Skies on Rabbits, but, out here skis go on ones feet; Not, on ones Rabbit. <grin>

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

A note to prospective members of SPA Members.

Don't do it. True Story, tonight I delivered the last of my non SPA (Rabbit) airplanes to its buyer. After flying my Rabbit for the first time this year, I have sold 6 (flyable) airplanes. My wife thinks I'm getting out of the hobby, little does she know what I have in store. My entire arsenal of airplanes now consist of: Daddy Rabbit, Unfinished Kaos, 2m Sailplane and my kids park flyer. Yep I like SPA airplanes, even if there isn't a SPA contest within 2000 miles of me.

While we're on the subject of SPA rules: Does John's Rabbit have a Canopy yet?

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Here is a question: as some of you "southern gentleman" might know, that being the origional 1971 Nats winning Tiger Tail was later re designed by it's origional designer,Ron Chidgy in the early 80's and was called the Tiger Tail IV. Steve----if your reading this would my Tiger Tail IV be SPA legal gear down of course....

Ed_Hartley

My Feedback: (2)

Those of you who like the SPA idea should check out the web site http://www.seniorpattern.com and join the mail list.

Present your ideas and enjoy the fellowship.

Here is a picture of my 4-Stroke Daddy Rabbit.

Best,
Ed Hartley

GW-inactive

My Feedback: (4)

John, The King Altair is a great combo for SPA teamed with a OS 91 FS on CP Heli 30%. I built one 2 years ago when I flew in a few SPA contest. It was All up weight of 7.5 lbs. Alot of fun, flew at a much slower speed than the DR I was flying. Very Graceful and smooth flying . It was near like flying my 2 meter planes. It was the best flying SPA plane I have flown. It now has a new owner in town here, and he even commented ( along with a few of his competition) that it made him a more capable pilot. I have some templates made to ease constuctioon of the plane. Keeping the original planform, just different and lighter techniques in framing. If you build it with all the different parts as the plans show, you will be at 8 or more lbs. Keep it light, and its one of the best SPA planes flying.

Later
GW

spbyrum

Yes. We'll gladly let you carry the weight penalty of the retracts as long as you don't forget an use the switch in flight.

spbyrum

GW

Rusty Miller has flown Jack Dunn built Altairs for a couple years (both now for sale the last I heard). Rusty seemed to have trouble with spin entry. I've seen the Coyote fly his, but didn't pay attention to his spin. Did you notice any problems. Rusty pretty much had to snap his in. That got me in big trouble at Hotlanta a couple years ago when I gave the appropriate score.

Steve

humptybump

Sorry....This is just a test...

humptybump

OK....I have a firewall program installed that was not letting me respond.....Ok now i guess.

GW........I watched Sid Austin Fly Little Joe's King Altair at Knoxville this season. He liked it alot. Said he thought it had alot of potential. Took a little work to spin , but could be trimmed properly to do a decent job without fear of horseover downgrade. Correct throws and CG placement and pilot skill to get it right.

I have not finished the reg. size Altair that i got from you this summer. I'm kind of waiting for Bruce to finish his........May be awhile.....Maybe next season......Bruce was leary of roll coupling. I think it might not be too bad.....To be determined at a later date.

I installed a canopy on my D.R. back in 2001. Has a Bugs Bunny pilot.....similar to Ed's. The DR needs a canopy to help lift the fuse in knife edge attitude.

Hey..........For you guys that may be in NC or north of........If you are really interested in having some fun.......I need a flying buddy to travel to a contest or two next year.....I will drive.....All we have to do is meet up , or if you live South of central Va.....I will pick you up on the way. SPA contests are often misunderstood till you attend one......Then 99% of your questions will be answered within a few hours........It's fun......If you are worried about your flying.....No problem.....Just enter in Novice.....There is tons of help. If you win or get bored....you can move to Sptsman or Expert for the next one. We have a great time.....We ARE competitive......It ain't no funfly , but it is somewhat laid back. Hard to describe till you attend. Any takers.......e-mail me. I'm serious about this.....I'm not just talking BS here.

I'm the only active competitor in the central eastcoast area......probably because of the long drive , but Knoxville is only 7 hours from central Va.......Atlanta is about 9. I've had pilots travel as long as that to attend the AMA pattern contests i held between 1990 and 1996 in the Richmond area. So it's not that big of a deal......There has GOT to be a bunch of you out there that would like to get back to non-turnaround......I KNOW you are out there somewhere. I would be glad to help setup for a contest in the central Atlantic area. We are getting ready to lose our field , so i can't do it here....not yet.



The Mach 1.........It was a very popular plane here in Central Va. back in the 70's......A good SPA choice. That plane has beautiful lines and presents well with little or no bad habits. I'm surprised not to see any in current competition. It should give a Rabbit a run for it's money. Yeah....I get sick of seeing so many Daddy Rabbits , but i tried one as my first SPA plane due to it's proven flying abilities. Now that i am aware of my competition , i can now experiment some with other designs and know up front if it is competitive or not......

Till Later........................John G.

BevoHoward

Hello John,

I was sorry to hear about the field in Oilville. A couple of your guys came out to our place in Amelia looking for a new site. I'm sorry we couldn't accommodate you guys. A club operation just didn't fit in with what we have going. I manage the field and operation for the airport owner, who happens to be a big supporter of model aviation.

If something could get organized for an SPA event, I could probably close the field for a weekend. I would most certainly get the owners approval, but I'm sure arrangements could be made. We have a 3200 ft grass strip that is in immaculate condition. Take a look at our web site. www.merlinaero.org

I have a Tipo about finished and a Mach 1 about 60% complete. I guess I could always fly my old Kaos with a fixed gear.

We might even be able to give a glider ride or two. Tom

humptybump

Thanks for the invitation Tom. My concern for a contest in this region is to have enough competitors to make it a decent contest. There will most likely be some age class changes (simplification) in SPA going foward. This will help some , and some guys from Tn and maybe some of the southern states would make the trip.

There has got to be someway to find out the REAL interest within 200 to 300 miles of Central Va. The internet is not enough. Many of the current SPA members don't monitor our SPA discussion group or any other forums that i am aware of. The only thing i can think of is possibly a advertisement in Model Aviation.....Large enough for most people to see. .....Just thinking out loud.

Unfortunately alot of the guys that flew pattern in the 70's and early 80's have faded away. SPA will survive on new younger blood. The largest class in SPA is novice......Not uncommon to see a dozen pilots in Novice.....I love it

BevoHoward

John,
I know a lot of the guys have faded. I was from the late 70's an very early 80's. I have several cherished trophies and memories from Oilville. I would like to help promote the SPA, and as I mentoined: I'm sure we can use our airport for an SPA event. Perhaps we could get together sometime and discuss it. If you check out our web site you will see we can put on a rather nice hanger party and get together. Tom

DADDYRABBIT

Hey Guy's,
First time poster here......Been lurking in the back reading all the good stuff about SPA and sure would love to see it expand to the upper states....As the son of a "LIFE LONG" modeler and just getting back into models in '97 after a 21 year layoff, I have to say that this is what I remember
and cherish the most....
I've read about the 4 banger not looking or feeling right in the Mach I or Tiger Tail, not going 130mph +, but it's like the guy's have said...we are losing our fields because of the loud 2 strokes...now if you want to fly them, I personally have no problem with them. I can remember back in the late 60's going to contest and after a full day of calling for dad and listening to those engines, I had "BEES" humming in my head all night
John,
I hope that you guy's can get something going up that way and if at all possible, you KNOW I'll be there....will bring as many with me as I can get....load up the TNT trailor with birds and the truck with pilots.... Maybe we can get dad and Mike to have that little shoot-out Riggs was talking about Hope ya'll(southern)get it going and would love to see it and be part of it...

NOW........................WHEN'S THE CONTEST??????????

GW-inactive

My Feedback: (4)

Steve,
No problems with the spin entry. I had the King Altair set up a bit tail-heavy , and it would just fall right into the spin. I think Joe has his a bit forward CG from where I had it originally. To make it more stable for him I would think. The plane was without a doubt in my mind the best of both worlds. An SPA plane that fles like a slow 2 meter plane.
I had the comment from Cass at Cave Springs that I was the only one who could take 12 minutes to get through a 7 minute pattern.

I had it proped and trimmed for slow graceful flight, With the OS91 with the bored out muffler/ Cool Power 30 %. The power was all you could ever want in an SPA plane. So power is not really an issue. I think Rusty had Kings in the 8.5 lb range. Mine was more near 7.5 or less. That would make all the difference in the world.

Off to the workshop.

GW

Deadstik

My Feedback: (8)

It seems I am going to have to get something together with Tom and John and organize something here in Central NC. Just as most who are reading this thread agree, there are a lot of either ex pattern pilots who "faded" or those who just wandered from the fold that I believe would support an SPA type event.

At this point in time I am not an SPA member but that is a $20 fix. I do agree with statements made here that if you want to change something, you have to get involved so I guess it is up to me to put a good foot forward.

I realize that some flying sites have noise issues which make 4 strokes and no pipes a way of life. At my field I am lucky that noise isn't a problem (except for those noisy geese!) I intend on having some type of old style pattern event in the Spring next year in Hurdle Mills, NC. While everything is an option right now, I am planning on not having any rules concerning pipes or retracts. It will basically be a "run what you brung" event for novice with anything pre 1984 allowed in classes above that. (Thinking small I may just have Novice and Masters) This might be seen as "unpure" SPA but if it gets people involved, I think it would be worth it. I don't go to Charlote, Rockingham, Richmond or Martinsville to hear race cars with mufflers and if people drive here for a "old style" contest, then that's what they want to hear.

I am going to do a little poll taking among the guys at my field and at other clubs just to get an idea if it would indeed be worth the effort. I would appreciate any ideas (or interest) in this idea.

Dan

aka deadstik [8D]

DADDYRABBIT

Hey Dan,
Looking at the photo under your name, I was asking dad(Bruce Underwood)if that was a Banshee?????....Boy remember that one WELL.....we had 3 that if memory serves me correct only had a total of about 12-15 flights between the 3<G>.........He did have a Kwik Fly III that lasted about 10 years it seemed like.....
I hope you guy's have good luck with the up and coming meet.....that sounds great with the "Fly what you bring" ideal......If at all possible, would love to come up myself!!

Cass Underwood