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Eureka Banshee Build Thread

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Old 01-01-2008, 07:56 PM
  #51
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Hey Guys, I talked to Don again and got my kit ordered. I want to clear something up about his statement on the landing gear wire. It's not that he doesn't have a supplier who can do the wire right its that the cost envolved is prohibitive. I guess for the numbers to fit his needs the cost is thru the roof and would add considerable cost to the kit. He just does't thinks its worth it. I did mention this thread to him so maybe he will join us. I've talked to him for over an hour by phone and he is really committed to doing things the right way. Not many people like that anymore, old school. Anyway it was a pleasure to reminisce with him.
Sugar: Thanks for clearing the landing gear issue up with Don. Now that I know the "why", I can understand his logic and keep the cost of the kit down. I'm sure that's something we all can appreciate! Glad to know that you ordered a kit, a Banshee I assume?

FB
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:15 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Freebird, yep a Banshee so I'll be watching your build thread with great interest. I've been building airplanes since 1971 but always enjoy seeing how someone else does things. No such thing as knowing it all for sure. I talked to Don about building the wing with barn door aelerons [sp, that aint right] as the pictures of Jim Martins plane has on the website. According to Don the production kits all had strips. I know my origional kit in the shop has strips. Apparently Jim thought the plane flew better with barndoors but for ease of manufacturing he made all the kits with strips. Don measured the barndoors on the origional plans while we talked so I might go that route.[in from the tip at trailing edge3/4 inch. 11in long 2 1/4 deep. Plans show using a 5/32 wire tork rod going into the surface just before the hinge. If I go that route I'll use servos outboard in the wing instead of the tork rods.[less chance for slop] . Being lazy I guess I went with the foam wing and ordered the aluminum gear just incase I fall and hit my head and go that direction. I really think that would totally destroy the look of the airplane. Its sleek and that ain't! Anyway get to building, I'm watchin..........Sugarfox
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:44 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

One of the main reasons Jim Martin used Barn Door ailerons is he thought they looked cool, especially during vertical rolls. Don't ask me how I know this, it is just one of those little factoids tucked inside the old brain. Evidently at the time, it impressed me.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Back to the build....

Now that the top sheeting has dried, flip the stab over and securely pin it down and then add the remaining sheets. Though it's hard to tell from the pic, this is the bottom.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:19 PM
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While the glue was drying, I noticed how the T/E of the stab was open, and remembering that it's capped with 1/4" stock. I thought that only a 1/4" of material for the hinges wasn't enough for a secure bond. So I decided to add some balsa blocks where the hinges are going to be located. Stock configuration is 2 hinges per elevator, I'm going with 3 hinges per elevator.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:29 PM
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Here's a few pics of how I did it. I used 1/4" x 1/2" stock, and here's where the Foremost Miter Master starts to come into play. I used it to square off the ends of the blocks and to cut the angle on the blocks that fit against rib #2. I find it a very handy tool to make perfectly fitting parts. When I glued the blocks into place, I left them a little proud of the T/E sheeting so that when the T/E is sanded, everything would be flush for the T/E cap.


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Old 01-01-2008, 10:33 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

When the glue dried, the stab is removed from the building board and the T/E is sanded so it's flush and square. I use a long sanding bar for this. The stab is now pinned down again to keep it flat and the 1/4" x 1/2" cap is glued in place.

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Old 01-01-2008, 10:41 PM
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The next step, after the glued has dried, is to trim and sand the T/E flush with the top & bottom sheeting. Moving on to the L/E, it also needs to be trued up for the L/E stock as the sheeting is over hangs the ribs. When done the 1/4" x 1/2" L/E can be glued in place. The first 2 pics show the L/E before sanding, the 3rd pic after sanding and then the stock glued into place.

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Old 01-01-2008, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Here's where I changed the L/E a little. The plans have you butt join the L/E at the center, I changed this to a scarf joint as it's a little stronger and easier to make a perfect joint. The L/E is sanded down so its flush with the opposite L/E and then using a razor plane, the excess stock is removed from the top and bottom and then sanded flush with the sheeting. The other L/E is glued in place and the same process is repeated. The end result is perfect.

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Old 01-01-2008, 11:05 PM
  #60
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Now sand the entire stab smooth and it's time to add the tip blocks. I used 1/2" x 5/8" stock (the tip block is 1/2" wide & 5/8" tall), glued them in place and sanded them to match the diamond airfoil. Tomorrow I'll start on shaping the tips.

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Old 01-01-2008, 11:10 PM
  #61
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Question for you guys that are following this build - is it too detailed? So far, I've posted 31 pics, just for the stab and its not done yet. I assume that a lot of you guys know how to build, and I don't want nit-pick every little detail. Any thoughts???

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Old 01-02-2008, 05:47 AM
  #62
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Yes, it is difficult to decide where to stop, but sometimes too much information can be better than not enough. In the end you must make the call, the rest of us will all share the vicarious pleasure of your build.
Evan, WB #12.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:32 AM
  #63
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

At each step, we all tend to do things a bit different. I for one like the idea of a scarf joint at the LE, so I learned something new. I like seeing each step. Snap away with the camera.

Nice clean work, BTW.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Free Bird,

It's not too much information for me, being a less experienced builder than most people in this forum. Can you (or anyone else) elaborate on using the "Sig-ment" glue? I'm not familiar with the product. Also, where did you get your machinists blocks, they look like something that I may need to look into finding.

Keep up the good work, I for one will be following along like a lost puppy
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: WEDJ

One of the main reasons Jim Martin used Barn Door ailerons is he thought they looked cool, especially during vertical rolls. Don't ask me how I know this, it is just one of those little factoids tucked inside the old brain. Evidently at the time, it impressed me.

--------------


I agree, they do look cool. But I wonder how he prevented them from oscillating? Bellcranks would have been an invitation for disaster. Counterbalancing the BD ailerons would have prevented mechanical oscillation, but I don't recall seeing external counterbalancing weights.

By the way, according to an aeronautical engineer (Mr. Ron Van Putte), fluttering is what an entire wing does when in oscillation, not what the control surfaces do.


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Old 01-02-2008, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Ed, the info I received from Don at Eureka, from Jim Martins origional drawing shows the barn doors controlled by 5/32 tork rods. I agree that bell cranks would be inviting disaster. If i go the bd route I will probably use the modern 2 servo situation. Although this install might mess with the aerodynamics on the outer wing surface. Seeing this thing is going ballistic speeds I'm not sure what effect the drag outboard on the wing might have........any thoughts? Freebird, If just one person learns a new technic it will make all the extra effort well worth your trouble in my mind. Not everyone has 35+ years of building experience. I doubt I would have thought of a scarf joint on the stab so I've already learned something from a fellow modeler. Thanks for your continuing efforts......Sugarfox
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Old 01-02-2008, 02:09 PM
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hrrcflyer, Sigment is a product from Sig Mfg. You should be able to get it at the hobby shop if you have one near. It comes in a squeeze tube. Kind of like the clear plastic glue from Testers that we used to use building plastic model cars in the day. AAHHH I can smell it now................ an origional glue sniffer. I remember building rocket engines in my teens which have evolved in todays world as pipe bombs. Lucky I didn't blow my fool head off, well I'm rambling on about what it was........regards Sugarfox
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Old 01-02-2008, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: sugarfox

Ed, the info I received from Don at Eureka, from Jim Martins origional drawing shows the barn doors controlled by 5/32 tork rods. I agree that bell cranks would be inviting disaster. If i go the bd route I will probably use the modern 2 servo situation. Although this install might mess with the aerodynamics on the outer wing surface. Seeing this thing is going ballistic speeds I'm not sure what effect the drag outboard on the wing might have........any thoughts? Freebird, If just one person learns a new technic it will make all the extra effort well worth your trouble in my mind. Not everyone has 35+ years of building experience. I doubt I would have thought of a scarf joint on the stab so I've already learned something from a fellow modeler. Thanks for your continuing efforts......Sugarfox


----------------



I'm going with strip ailerons and a servo in each wing panel. I'm also going with conventional retracts (you can leave them down and be legal for BPA). I want to capture the essence of the Banshee. I'm not concerned about complete scale accuracy.

Some forms of 5/32" wire will act as torsion rods and will store and release energy. While other forms are very stiff and not springy at all. If one could find the non springy wire, I suppose the torque rods would be okay. But I've only seen that non springy wire upon occasion over the years. I don't even know the correct name for it in order to find it today. Too much of a hassle for me.

I suppose one could mount a small, high quality servo out in the wingtip(s) and do justice to the authenticity of the model, but that is too much work for me.


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Old 01-02-2008, 02:58 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

My scratch-bult Banshee has the barn door ailerons w/ 5/32 wire. It rode in brass tubing bushings. I never had any vibration/flutter problems with the set-up. The wire is so stiff, compared to the mass of the aileron, that it really didn't flex at all.
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:12 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

You could mount the aileron servo buried in the wing, lying on it's side, so only the end of the output arm was protruding...between that and the linkage, I don't think would cause much drag?
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:57 PM
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ORIGINAL: proptop

You could mount the aileron servo buried in the wing, lying on it's side, so only the end of the output arm was protruding...between that and the linkage, I don't think would cause much drag?

--------------


There you go. That sounds like a plan to me.

I built a Bridi Deception in 1982. It used torque rods that were included in the kit. They looked and felt robust, but I was lucky to get the model back on the ground in one piece that day. These were strip ailerons too, not barn doors. After having to dig them out and replace them with a set of homemades, I got lucky in that the new ones did not oscillate. Why? I haven't a clue. Pure luck. Never again. My models fly too fast to trust to torque rods. Plus the control "feel" of the model is always dubious because of flex, even if they don't oscillate.


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Old 01-02-2008, 05:32 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

Quote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: proptop

You could mount the aileron servo buried in the wing, lying on it's side, so only the end of the output arm was protruding...between that and the linkage, I don't think would cause much drag?



--------------


There you go. That sounds like a plan to me.

I built a Bridi Deception in 1982. It used torque rods that were included in the kit. They looked and felt robust, but I was lucky to get the model back on the ground in one piece that day. These were strip ailerons too, not barn doors. After having to dig them out and replace them with a set of homemades, I got lucky in that the new ones did not oscillate. Why? I haven't a clue. Pure luck. Never again. My models fly too fast to trust to torque rods. Plus the control "feel" of the model is always dubious because of flex, even if they don't oscillate.


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I'll be using the strip ailerons (ala J&J) but I'll bury a servo in each wing panel like mentioned above. I like the look of servos hanging out.

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Old 01-02-2008, 05:46 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

This is a Great Thread!!

Beautiful Work!! Great Info too...

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Old 01-02-2008, 06:14 PM
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Default RE: Eureka Banshee Build Thread

A couple of Banshees I was involved with suffered bad aileron flutter using the original 5/32" wire torque rods. The cure was to solder three 1" lengths of 5/32" i/d brass tube equally spaced along the length of the rod. This adds tremendous stiffness to the wire.

Subsequently Rom Air produced a torque rod set especially for the Banshee.

I still use the same method on wire elevator joiners with a short length of brass tube soldered in the middle of the joiner.

Ray

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Old 01-02-2008, 06:50 PM
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Moving on it's time to start the magic show. From this point on in the stab construction, it starts to change from a diamond in the rough, to a smooth finished stab. All of the carving and sanding will bring out final shape, so take your time to make it right.

Trace the shape of the tip onto the stab and then carve and sand the tip to the traced outline. Don't round the tip to its final shape yet, that'll come later. After the outline is defined, draw a centerline the length of the tip, you'll need this later to keep the shape even when rounding it. To make a centerline, I measure its width at several points and stick a pin in. Then using a flexable plastic ruler, I hold it against the pins and draw the line. The thickness of a medium-sized T-Pin happens to be the same size as the point of a standard ball point pen. Works great!



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