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Scaled Tiporare Plans

Old 08-21-2008, 09:08 PM
  #26  
rv7driver
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

David, thank you very much for the plans down loaded all, really interested in the 20 tipo. Don thats great you coming out with the short kit. I'll put my vote in for the 10 and 20 size tipo and as alway the 60 size also. Thanks again, Pete
Old 08-21-2008, 09:22 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans


ORIGINAL: petec

David,

Glad you got the plans and got the scaling done. I just downloaded the 40 size plans.

If you ever scale them up to 1.20 size I sure would like a set of those. It would be interesting to see how that would compare to in flight characteristics to say a Prophecy.

Pete
Petec,

cool. Let us know if you start building a Mirare (40 Tipo).

120? Try the following on for size

http://www.4shared.com/file/59962337...n_-_66x40.html

Wing Span: 72.0"
Stab Span: 29.6"
Fuse Length: 63"
Fuse Width: 3" (internal at CG)
Spinner & Wheels: 2.50"
Retracts: Probably a nice set of Robarts
Weight: 9-10 lbs
Power: .90-1.20 (~1500W)

Wing Area & Wing Loading? Haven't figured them out yet.

Do you have some more details/specs/photos of the Prophecy?

David.

Old 08-22-2008, 02:00 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

David thanks for your advice I decided to put 1.50 " anhedral and hope its not to much, maybe i'll order a nice tuned pipe for this engine.

I already started building the plane, fuse is almost done, just like you mentioned about the rudder thickness I figured out to laminate with 1/16" sheeting to make this span the thickness of the rudder otherwise it would've be to thick.

In general fuse lenght looks ok. I will not go for foam wings, i decided to build balsa wings, more work but less weight IMO.

As soon I have some pictures I ll open the building thread.

thanks again.
Rafa

Old 08-22-2008, 07:13 AM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Rafa,

excellent news! Please do show us your progress!

David.
Old 08-22-2008, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans


ORIGINAL: doxilia


Petec,

cool. Let us know if you start building a Mirare (40 Tipo).

120? Try the following on for size

http://www.4shared.com/file/59962337...n_-_66x40.html

Wing Span: 72.0"
Stab Span: 29.6"
Fuse Length: 63"
Fuse Width: 3" (internal at CG)
Spinner & Wheels: 2.50"
Retracts: Probably a nice set of Robarts
Weight: 9-10 lbs
Power: .90-1.20 (~1500W)

Wing Area & Wing Loading? Haven't figured them out yet.

Do you have some more details/specs/photos of the Prophecy?

David.

Thanks for the scaled up plans David. I need to get my Black Magics done as well as the DB40 that is on the bench before I start on the 60 sized Tipo let alone the 40 size, but it is certainly on my list of things to do. I figure it will be a good back up airframe for the DB40 if something were to happen to it or I might need to pick up another YS 45FR.....now there's a thought.

I do not have any particulars on the Prophecy since the one I had I bought used.

I think I can safely say I have enough planes to work on over the winter building season now.

Pete
Old 08-28-2008, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

After having studied all the plans carefully (all 5 of them now), I discovered an amazing fact:

The grid size of each plan increases almost exactly (< 1/64" deviation) in 1/8" increments!

In other words, the grid size of each plan is:

1) Picorare (Tipo 10): 5/8"
2) Nanorare (Tipo 20): 6/8" = 3/4"
3) Mirare (Tipo 40): 7/8"
4) Tiporare (Tipo 60): 8/8" = 1"
5) Merare (Tipo 120): 9/8" = 1-1/8"

I'm not sure about divine intervention but that sure as heck surprised me!! [X(]

These scalings practically follow the golden rule... even though that was never the intention.

Pete,

After looking at the 120 plans I thought... what a beast! Do let me know if you get going on one of these. An OS 91FX or 120AX or even an inverted YS 120-140 would make interesting power plants.

Anyone else out there building one of these beauties in wood?

A couple of pics to provide inspiration...

David.


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Old 08-29-2008, 07:21 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

I have a bunch of YS engines, no 1.20s anymore (that doesn't mean I couldn't add one to the collection) but I do have quite a few 1.40s plus 91 ans 1.10 sized YS engines. The final weight will dictate powerplant.
Old 08-31-2008, 12:36 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans


ORIGINAL: doxilia

After having studied all the plans carefully (all 5 of them now), I discovered an amazing fact:

The grid size of each plan increases almost exactly (< 1/64" deviation) in 1/8" increments!

In other words, the grid size of each plan is:

1) Picorare (Tipo 10): 5/8"
2) Nanorare (Tipo 20): 6/8" = 3/4"
3) Mirare (Tipo 40): 7/8"
4) Tiporare (Tipo 60): 8/8" = 1"
5) Merare (Tipo 120): 9/8" = 1-1/8"

I'm not sure about divine intervention but that sure as heck surprised me!! [X(]

These scalings practically follow the golden rule... even though that was never the intention.

Pete,

After looking at the 120 plans I thought... what a beast! Do let me know if you get going on one of these. An OS 91FX or 120AX or even an inverted YS 120-140 would make interesting power plants.

Anyone else out there building one of these beauties in wood?

A couple of pics to provide inspiration...

David.


So did I in post #10 hehe.

RD
Old 09-02-2008, 10:25 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Right on Roguedog!

Wouldn't it be cool of all plans were laid on vellum graph paper. I had noticed the 1" grid for the 60 but I sure didn't expect all the plans to come out at even 1/8" intervals including the 120! I just said... ok, what's a good size/span/weight for a craft with this engine size? I then scaled them according to my "educated guesses". And then I measured them in turn and, bang - 1/8" steps!

Come to think of it, that might just apply in general when scaling models... I'd just have to figure out (or dig up from some good aeronautical engineering book) the relationship between power/displacement and wing span - a nice little formula of sorts. With displacement roughly doubling at 1/8" intervals what does the power curve look like?

In any case, what do you say about that Deception?

Cheers, David.
Old 09-05-2008, 02:28 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Interesting that during the scaling process it turn out right at 1/8" intervals. I know I'll be using that figure as a test bed for anything I scale in the future. When I scaled the Deception Plans I did quite a bit of research on different 20, 40, and 60 size pattern plane plans. Once I had several wing spans to work with I then simply used a little math to figure out the scaling percentage in Photoshop, .

Photoshop has a cool feature that allows you to place guides (light blue in color) a various locations. Similar to making your own grid on the plans. I used this feature extensively while scaling my plans.

It would be interesting to see the curve. But I think I'll use what's left of my mental faculties for building and customizing the planes I want to build. Hehe. Partied way too much when I was younger.

Here's a different perspective using percentages based on the Original 60 size, using your naming convention of course.

1) Picorare (Tipo 10): 5/8" = 62.5% of 60 Size
2) Nanorare (Tipo 20): 6/8" = 3/4" = 75% of 60 Size
3) Mirare (Tipo 40): 7/8" = 87.5% of 60 Size
4) Tiporare (Tipo 60): 8/8" = 1" = 100%
5) Merare (Tipo 120): 9/8" = 1-1/8" = 12.5% over Size


Did you get the original 60 size and the build article?

Old 09-07-2008, 09:44 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Roguedog,

I guess modelers minds work in similar ways. The plans in this thread were scaled just the way you describe, except that the scaling was done based on wing span rather than exact grid reduction (or increase in the case of the 120). Having said that, "almost exactly 1/8" steps" is the case (less that 2% deviation) given the following:

1) Picorare (Tipo 10): Span 40" = 61.54% (1.5% deviation from 62.5% of 60 Size)
2) Nanorare (Tipo 20): Span 48" = 73.85% (1.5% deviation from 75% of 60 Size)
3) Mirare (Tipo 40): Span 56" = 86.15% (1.5% deviation from 87.5% of 60 Size)
4) Tiporare (Tipo 60): Span 65" = 100% (< 0% deviation from the mother ship! )
5) Merare (Tipo 120): Span 72" = 110.77% (1.5% deviation from 112.5% of 60 Size)

Your percentages of course reflect the exact 1/8" steps (comment for other readers who may not be reading as closely).

Now that we've adequately dissected this issue, it certainly should be useful for general scaling of plans of the given power system range. I'm sure this is re-inventing the wheel a bit (not like it isn't done on a daily basis by designers) but it is fun to make discoveries (maybe learn a little) out of thin air without having to crack a book (did plenty of that in my youth hopefully along with a decent dose of partying as well...).

Photoshop is also usually my tool of choice for this sort of stuff. In this case I used Illustrator though as it works in vector space rather than raster space. If one is fortunate enough to start with a lossless file such as a TIFF (in some cases), a TGA, a PNG or better yet a PDF or PS file, then any scaling is possible with zero loss in quality. But those guide thingies are great! I also use them to check things like plumb lines (e.g., a fuse CL laid parallel to the paper edge) on the various structures. Another cool feature I discovered in Acrobat is the possibility of drawing measuring lines on your PDF file. This allows you to annotate between arrows things like wing span, fuse length, wheel diameter, etc. Basically anything you want. You can then optionally print these marks or not (I use them on proxy printouts but not on the full size plans).

'nough said... I should be building but too tired after this particular weekend.

BTW, I did get the Deception files and emailed you back. Hope you received my note. Many thanks once again. I now have to wait for my wood shipment but am planning on putting a 10 size Deception together with an old ST .15 for which I'll have to find an appropriate sleeve to fit an X11 RC carb into the wider throat... and hopefully find a header from Macs that will fit the engine. Although I haven't built one before (in this size at least), I think there's something cool about a baby pattern ship of sorts with all the bells & whistles. Now.... should I put a retract trike in it (there will be the purists) or shave a little weight and move my main gear forward in the wing... (there will be the convention breakers!)
Old 10-19-2008, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

What is the reason for less anhedral without a pipe? I downloaded plans, and am deciding on the size. If I were to change my motor arrangement (pipe or no pipe), which anhedral should I use?
Old 10-19-2008, 09:20 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

The drawings for the "Picorare" (Tipo 10) suggest a .15-.21 cu.in. engine. Would an OS 15 fp be enough for this? Or would it be a dog?
Old 10-20-2008, 05:59 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Dwight, I'll comment after dinner. Hold that thought!


Ok,

here's my "flying by the seat of my pants" engineering rationale. I annotated the plans with weights and power somewhat based on an educated guess. Having said that, I think that a good rule of thumb for glow powered models is about 0.15 - 0.25 bhp/lb. This translates to about 150W/lb (0.2 bhp/lb) and has electric motor equivalences. I would say that a typical aerobatic electric powered model calls for between 120-140 W/lb. 150 W/lb and above is getting into the 3D space.

I would imagine that the specs on your 15 FP are about 0.4 HP@~15Krpm (~300W) which translates to a good power source for a 2-2.5 lb aerobatic model. So... it all depends on how light you build your Picorare, whether it has retracts or not (or landing gear at all for that matter), whether you have an efficient/powerful exhaust system and what performance you expect from your model.

With that very sophisticated computational analysis out of the way, I would have to say, using your word, it would be a dog. I have rarely seen a model perform particularly well (certainly not pattern aircraft) when powered with the low end of the engine displacement range called for.

In short, I would suggest that if you want to use a .15, an OS .15 CV-A (0.5 hp@18K spec) or similar (Magnum, etc.) would be better. Perhaps better yet would be a K&B .18 aero (1.15 hp@18K w/ TP and 30% nitro !!). Neither of these engines will produce the power claimed but you might be moving into the 0.5-0.6 hp (300-450W) range and your model would now have a serious bark! A .21 may be overkill both on the power and weight/size front unless it was an older engine with lower power output.

BTW, it is possible to install retracts and a pipe on this little pocket rocket. Haven't done it yet but it's all been studied .

http://www.osengines.com/engines/osmg0715.html

http://www.mecoa.com/kb/aero/aircraft.htm

Cheers, David.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:02 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans


ORIGINAL: DwightMann

What is the reason for less anhedral without a pipe? I downloaded plans, and am deciding on the size. If I were to change my motor arrangement (pipe or no pipe), which anhedral should I use?
Dwight,

check post #25 in the thread. All dimensions are given for the anhedral angles.

The school of thought for anhedral stabs is that they provide better tracking of the aircraft (among other things) through maneuvers (e.g., an F-4 Phantom). However, the drastic anhedral of 4.25" on the original Tipo was designed with the intention of lowering the effective stab location in the case of a plane with a very large vertical cross section (pipe under wing). This was important during point maneuvers when the plane was under heavy yaw control (e.g., knife edge flight and point rolls) and presumably helped to reduce yaw-roll coupling. Removal of the pipe from under the wing decreases the vertical cross section of the model reducing the need for lowering the effective location of the stab. Hence, 2" anhedral called for in this case.

If you want to alter your engine/exhaust arrangement then feel free to also play around with the anhedral angle. I think I suggested a couple of methods to be able to do this using a split stab (same post I think). You could use a system whereby your stabs are shimmed at the root to provide the required angle. With two or three different shims you can change the angle simply by swapping the shims. Your stab would of course have to be removable. Alternatively you could also use a compromise angle - somewhere between the two dimensions. Just an idea.

Cheers, David.
Old 10-21-2008, 06:53 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Hey Pattern Flyers,

I'm getting ready to start the short kits for the scaled Tipos, all of the sizes David did. Something for everybody, since there seems to be a lot of interest.

Does anyone have pictures, better plans, pictures of parts, anything that would show how the fin is actually built?? The plans are vague, to say the least, in that area, and the one I flew back in the day was already built, so I never saw it framed up.

I want to improve the short kits of the Tipo in that area. Everything else is good.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks...

Don @ EurekaAircraft.com
Old 10-21-2008, 10:12 PM
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Don,

Thanks for your email. I'll get back to you shortly. I'm awaiting an email reply.

Regarding the fin, I think we'll be hard pressed to find a built up Tiporare these days. Maybe someone out there has one but I wouldn't bet on it. With that in mind I'm going to go out on a limb and offer my understanding of the construction sequence. Before doing so though, I would say that the approach is very similar to how a Curare or an Aurora fin is built. Several photos of fins of both models in construction are found in assorted threads here.

Maybe I'll do this in bullet form to keep me from wandering too much:

[ul][*] With the stab built, one covers the center with wax paper and lays the stab in position pinning it down or tack gluing.
[*] The fin TE post is then built by joining the fuse sides to a sheet balsa "stick" the height of the fin and just behind the stab. The depth of this post template is 3/16" on the 60 but is somewhat arbitrary (but not for a laser cutter! ). With this 3-ply laminate of balsa (two sides and one post template) the TE of the fuse now has the right thickness of the rudder at the LE.
[*] The post template is then "thickened" above the stab top on either side to match the fuse thickness below minus 1/8". For example for 1/8" fuse sides and a 1/16" post template, one would laminate 1/16" balsa on either side of the template above the stab top. So we have a 3/16" 3-ply laminate above the stab thus far.
[*]Next one lays down the fin base triangle (as per your your short kit) above the stab top which attaches the rear fuse top (below the fin sub LE) to the 3-ply fin post. This is followed by another triangular section which forms the sub LE of the fin and is glued at the top to a shorter triangular section joining the fin post front to the fin sub LE. With the 4 structures in place: fin post, fin base, fin sub LE and fin top, the frame of the fin is complete.
[*] The internal fin structure is then built consisting of 4 triangular sections: 1) the fin tip-base cross brace, 2) the fin base-sub LE support, 3) the fin base-cross brace support and 4) cross brace-sub LE support. This completes the fin frame-up. I would go a step further and add some triangular shims at all internal brace junctions for strength. I would also add two pieces of balsa within the fin at the two top hinge points inline with the rudder "ribs" to provide some meat for the hinges (hinge points ideal). In fact, one could substitute the fin tip triangular section for a thicker one to provide the balsa for the hinge point (1/4" on the 60) just like in the rudder at the top.
[*] With the fin now completely framed up, 1/16" sheeting is applied to each side resulting in a 5-ply laminate at the fin post of equal thickness of the fuse junction at the bottom rear.
[*] What remains is the soft balsa (scaled) 1" blocks (see plans) to feather the fuse into the fin and to provide a smooth continuous vertical extension of the fuse. I would simply use straight sections sanded flat at the top and bottom and then fair the fuse top sheet into the blocks with a piece of scrap balsa and filler.
[*] To complete the fin assembly, a 3-ply rectangular laminate is made and added to form the fin/rudder tip. Then sanded to lateral and vertical contour. Done!
[/ul]

The catch I think is the 3-ply fin post template laminate. Depending on the model scale, one has to be careful to select appropriate thickness for the fuse sides so that 1/16" balsa can be used to sheet the fin and result in a fin of equal thickness at the TE to the fuse bottom rear. As an example for the Nanorare (Tipo 20), 1/8" fuse sides, 1/16" fin post template = 5/16" TE thickness. This calls for 1/16" 3-ply post template laminate plus the 1/16" sheeting on either side = total 5/16".

Now, there would be a much simpler way to build the fin. Basically cut a 2" block (60 size) to the profile on the plans (minus fin base and post), tack glue it to the base and post, taper it and contour the LE. One could then hollow it out at the base and tip or bore lightening holes and finish off with the 3-ply fin tip. Less elegant but much simpler. A bored out fin would however require some sort of covering in the event of a painted finish as glassing wouldn't hold up in the bored regions (or maybe it would if one used 6 oz cloth but that would probably negate the boring and just add work).

I hope that interpretation is of some use. David.
Old 10-21-2008, 10:27 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

David,

I was thinking something really close to that, very Curare-like'. A pain but it works. Hoping for simpler, but the block wouldn't be simple, it would be a real pain to get even, plus the weight factor.

The extra hidden lines on the plan is the problem figuring it out, very not like the Curare. I'll play with some 3D CAD later and see what comes of it.

In the meantime, I hope someone out there can shead some light on this.

Don @ Eureka...

Old 10-22-2008, 12:04 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Don,

if you're inclined to keeping to the built up approach, it would considerably ease the work of building to have the triangular sections laser cut as part of the short kit. As I mentioned above, the only change that I think is called for is a thicker sub fin tip section (1/4" stock) as well as another piece of 1/4" in the fin at the rudder's mid rib to provide hinge point material. This would reduce the triangular sections count to bottom, front and the 4 internal.

It would be great to see your CAD efforts once you have something you like.

I'll get back to you re the plans later today.

David.
Old 10-22-2008, 01:19 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Actually the router cut parts will include 3 triangle shaped, all horizontal. Bottom, middle & top, plus a triangle piece in the front like the Curare to be sure the angle is right. Much easier to build. Just got to work out the exact sizes.

I sure like the idea of a straight LE piece, and a piece of scrap to form the bottom front filltet. Also much easier to build.

Will put up a drawing of it when ready.

Don @ EAC



Old 10-23-2008, 04:39 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Don,

Excellent! Look forward to your drawings. Sounds much simpler.

I sent you a couple of PM's just now.

BTW, although advancing slowly, I have started a build thread on the Nanorare:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8070218/tm.htm

No feedback or comments yet but I haven't gotten very far.

David.
Old 10-23-2008, 06:39 PM
  #47  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Check out the "Tipo Max"... a 2M by 2M version that I had started when I had wanted to get back into AMA pattern. It went on permanent hold when I learned about the BPA.

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Old 10-23-2008, 10:15 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

Stiletto,

She's a real beauty! Finally, we've come across someone who's built a wood fuse per the plans! You've got to finish her, BPA or not. What is the actual scale (wing span) in inches? Did you build it for trikes or tail dragger? Retracts? What power plant did you have in mind - 2c 1.20-1.40? or 4c 1.70?

Any pictures, notes and/or tips that you could provide on the construction sequence would be much appreciated by all. Don, from Eureka, is also looking for information regarding the fin construction. Since yours is finished it will be hard to show the innards but perhaps you could enlighten with some comments. Also, any thoughts on the fin LE? Does my fin construction sequence description above sound similar to what you did?

For the front top laminations in the nose area, any comments/photos would also be helpful. My approach would be to first tack glue the two full sheets fusing into the nose ring onto the fuse top. Then, the top third sheet, pre sanded to vertical contour (the top curve), would be installed. The entire assembly, in place, would then be sanded smooth to lateral contour. When done, the 3-ply laminate would be popped off and hollowed out to provide space for the tank above the gear and engine (and to reduce weight).

Cheers, David.
Old 10-24-2008, 03:46 AM
  #49  
Roguedog
 
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans

ORIGINAL: dfturnock

Hey Pattern Flyers,

I'm getting ready to start the short kits for the scaled Tipos, all of the sizes David did. Something for everybody, since there seems to be a lot of interest.

Does anyone have pictures, better plans, pictures of parts, anything that would show how the fin is actually built?? The plans are vague, to say the least, in that area, and the one I flew back in the day was already built, so I never saw it framed up.

I want to improve the short kits of the Tipo in that area. Everything else is good.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks...

Don @ EurekaAircraft.com
Hey Don. Here's a few pics of how the MK Curare 60 fin is put together. I have the MK Curare 60 and Model Builder Tiporare plan and in comparing the two fins they're not that different. The MK version has you make a triangle box for the inside of the fin.

The first three pics are the Curare the last is a comparison of the Mk Curare (top) and the Model Builder Tiporare. The only real difference is the frame the MK has to make a box of the triangle. I think your best bet is to look at the Super Sicroly, MK Magic 60, and the Curare fins as these all seen to utilize what i believe your looking for. I have a MK Magic 20 and it is a similar build for it's fin as well.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:22 PM
  #50  
stiletto660
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Default RE: Scaled Tiporare Plans


ORIGINAL: doxilia

Stiletto,

She's a real beauty! Finally, we've come across someone who's built a wood fuse per the plans! You've got to finish her, BPA or not. What is the actual scale (wing span) in inches? Did you build it for trikes or tail dragger? Retracts? What power plant did you have in mind - 2c 1.20-1.40? or 4c 1.70?

Any pictures, notes and/or tips that you could provide on the construction sequence would be much appreciated by all. Don, from Eureka, is also looking for information regarding the fin construction. Since yours is finished it will be hard to show the innards but perhaps you could enlighten with some comments. Also, any thoughts on the fin LE? Does my fin construction sequence description above sound similar to what you did?
Thanks! I ended up treating the sides of the fin as an extension of the fuse sides. I used a huge piece of soft balsa glued to the front of the fin and carved it to match the top block of the fuselage. It's a little bit more blunt than the great planes mold, which has a bit sharper leading edge.

I was actually imagining a OS 1.60 with the exhaust running under the wing. I always thought the exposed engine was attractive. It's built for trike gear.

The wingspan was clipped down to 78" after scaling up the fuse to 78". Supposedly the later tipos had started to evolve shorter wings. The thing still has 1180 sq in of wing area though!

The nose is really hard to carve and shape correctly. It still needs quite a bit of contouring and refinement to get where it needs to be. I started by gluing all three soft balsa sheets together right in place over the nose, then band sawing out the side contour after tracing the shape from the plans. Then it was a matter of using a long carving x-acto blade to get the rest of the rounded shapes. The side tucks aren't completely in yet, and I'm not sure how I'm going to get them to come out perfectly sharp and clean on both sides like the Great Planes fuselage.
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